The Law of Return and Jewish Christians?

[Carlyle]

As a Christian I think it is hardly appropriate that atheist "Jews" with one Jewish grandparent are allowed to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return but Christian Jews are not considered Jewish.

A Christian born of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew according to Halakha. An atheist who has a Jewish grandfather is not a Jew.

If Israel wanted to reserve the right to citizenship only to practicing Jews it would not bother me. However, now the government of Israel makes a de facto statement that Christians, Jewish or not, are worse people than non-Jewish atheists and unwanted in Israel. 

[BabylonianJew]

As a Christian I think it is hardly appropriate that atheist "Jews" with one Jewish grandparent are allowed to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return but Christian Jews are not considered Jewish.

A Christian born of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew according to Halakha. An atheist who has a Jewish grandfather is not a Jew.

If Israel wanted to reserve the right to citizenship only to practicing Jews it would not bother me. However, now the government of Israel makes a de facto statement that Christians, Jewish or not, are worse people than non-Jewish atheists and unwanted in Israel. 

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

[Carlyle]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

[Allen-T]

As a Christian I think it is hardly appropriate that atheist "Jews" with one Jewish grandparent are allowed to immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return but Christian Jews are not considered Jewish.

A Christian born of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew according to Halakha. An atheist who has a Jewish grandfather is not a Jew.

If Israel wanted to reserve the right to citizenship only to practicing Jews it would not bother me. However, now the government of Israel makes a de facto statement that Christians, Jewish or not, are worse people than non-Jewish atheists and unwanted in Israel. 

It's evil, plain and simple. Jews would have a justifiable fit if they were singled out that way.

[mord]

its based on biology to,

Hows that possible

[BabylonianJew]

its based on biology to,

Hows that possible

they found jewish genes in the groups i mentioned.

[mord]

its based on biology to,

Hows that possible

they found jewish genes in the groups i mentioned.

No i thought you said that mesaniac Jews are different then other Jews, their beleifs are but thats all

[Sarah]

But thats precisely the problem, they are "christian jews", you cannot be both in terms of race, maybe but in practical understanding you are one or the other.

[ftf]

But thats precisely the problem, they are "christian jews", you cannot be both in terms of race, maybe but in practical understanding you are one or the other.

I would say that someone who properly understands the christian mindset would have to disagree with you there.

[Allen-T]

But thats precisely the problem, they are "christian jews", you cannot be both in terms of race, maybe but in practical understanding you are one or the other.

I would say that someone who properly understands the christian mindset would have to disagree with you there.

Every Jew I know and have talked to that has accepted Christ thinks of themselves as a complete Jew, not as a Christian who is no longer a Jew.

[ftf]

I'm agreeing with you there Allen, it's Sarah I'm disagreeing with.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

You know, I admit as a Christian I will be biased, but there are some Christian Jews who now are proud of their roots and heritage who before their conversion were absolute self-haters.

[judeanoncapta]

There's no such thing as a Jewish Christian.

Just like there are no Christian Muslims, Buddhist Christians, Muslim Hindus, etc.

If Jewishness was based purely on blood as you seem to suggest it should be, Israel would be required to take in millions of Muslims who were once Jews and who were forcibly converted. That would be insane.

The "Messianic" Jewish movement is not Jewish at all. It is financed by the Southern Baptist convention as a way to deceive Jews into apostasy. They deserve no recognition by Israel or the Jewish people in any way. They certainly deserve recognition by Protestant Chrisianity, but not Judaism and not Israel. They go after homeless people, mental patients, old people in retirement homes. I’ve seen it myself.

 When I lived in Israel, there was a missionary in my neighborhood. He brought a girl from South Africa who began sleeping with different homeless people in order to turn them Christian. I saw it with my own eyes. She would hang around outside the soup kitchen in a mini-skirt and heels flirting with these homeless and mentally disturbed lonely men.

 I spoke to one of the guys who converted. He said that she was sleeping with him and 4 other guys from the soup kitchen. You may not be aware of this, but these are the tactics that missionaries use.

They also dress up as orthodox jews and ask to check the mezuzot(small torah scrolls that are affixed to doorposts) of secular Jews. Then they take the scroll, erase the name of God and put a cross in place of the name of God. I have seen numerous examples of their handiwork.

 Before you automatically defend that, THINK ABOUT IT. Is that what you want to do in this world, erase the name of God and put a Roman murder device in place of God’s holy name?

But then again, this issue highlights one of the main problems with a Jewish-Christian alliance.

Christians are required to proselytize in all places to all people. I understand that this is your belief, but I hope you don’t think that I am crazy enough to help you convert my people to your religion? How would you like it if I went around trying to convert your children, your elderly, your fellow Christians? You would like it around as much as we do.

 I wish that we could call a truce. Jews will not try to convert and Christians will not try to convert Jews. That is ultimately fair.

 But instead, Christians spend tens of millions of dollars a year trying to convert Jews. Jews are required to discourage conversion. Therefore, we are at an absolute disadvantage and I hope you don’t think that we’re going to add to that disadvantage by accepting Christians whose parents or grandparents were Jewish as “Jews”.

That would be insane.

And as far as Christian support of Israel is concerned, if you think that you are going to help Israel and then say “Now you owe us, Accept Christian Jews as Jews or we’ll stop supporting Israel.” Please STOP supporting Israel immediately. We don’t want or need such “support”. It says in the Torah, “Am levadad yishkon” Behold, it is a nation that shall dwell alone.

Israel will survive with or without Christian support. Israel will survive because it is God’s will that it survive.

The fact that there are any Jews alive today in 2007 is an absolute miracle. We were almost wiped out by Christians multiple times, so please excuse me if I don’t help your missionaries to wipe us out spiritually.

[ftf]

I have never heard of any of the despicable practises that you describe being carried out, but I hope that you will believe me when I say that people that would stoop to using such practises are not people I would ever choose to associate with. I will continue to insist that there can be such thing as a Jewish Christian, if there can't be, then the entire Christian religion would have to be a lie, as the idea of the Christian faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the messiah who was promised to the Jews.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Judea: What if that person did not have any contact with missionaries at all?

General: I may be mistaken, but isn't it true that Jews who have converted to Islam or Buddhism are allowed to make aliyah? That is ridiculous.

[Allen-T]

I'm agreeing with you there Allen, it's Sarah I'm disagreeing with.

Yes, I know, I was seconding your point.

[Allen-T]

You know, I admit as a Christian I will be biased, but there are some Christian Jews who now are proud of their roots and heritage who before their conversion were absolute self-haters.

I know what you mean there.

[judeanoncapta]

I will continue to insist that there can be such thing as a Jewish Christian, if there can't be, then the entire Christian religion would have to be a lie, as the idea of the Christian faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the messiah who was promised to the Jews.

Continue to insist what you wish. But just one thing for you to chew on.

The reason that I know that Christianity is a lie and Jesus was not the Messiah is because I can read the text of the "Tanach" in it's original language.

Think about that.

[judeanoncapta]

Judea: What if that person did not have any contact with missionaries at all?

But I saw the missionary. I met him. What are you talking about?

General: I may be mistaken, but isn't it true that Jews who have converted to Islam or Buddhism are allowed to make aliyah? That is ridiculous.

It better not be true.

[judeanoncapta]

You know, I admit as a Christian I will be biased, but there are some Christian Jews who now are proud of their roots and heritage who before their conversion were absolute self-haters.

I know what you mean there.

Yeah, you're right Robert Novak is not self-hating.
After he converted to Christianity, he has become one of the most outspoken anti- Israel conservative pundits.

You don't understand the psyche of the self-hating Jew.
If you did you wouldn't have said some thing as obviously untrue as that.

[Allen-T]

I will continue to insist that there can be such thing as a Jewish Christian, if there can't be, then the entire Christian religion would have to be a lie, as the idea of the Christian faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the messiah who was promised to the Jews.

Continue to insist what you wish. But just one thing for you to chew on.

The reason that I know that Christianity is a lie and Jesus was not the Messiah is because I can read the text of the "Tanach" in it's original language.

Think about that.

And I have a English/Hebrew/Greek Concordance, it weighs about as much as a Toyota, and can cross reference passage all day long without being able to, in effect, read or write Hebrew or Greek. The meanings of original manuscript words can be found and understood. Can you give some specific examples of Hebrew texts that have been corrupted that we can look into?

[judeanoncapta]

I will continue to insist that there can be such thing as a Jewish Christian, if there can't be, then the entire Christian religion would have to be a lie, as the idea of the Christian faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the messiah who was promised to the Jews.

Continue to insist what you wish. But just one thing for you to chew on.

The reason that I know that Christianity is a lie and Jesus was not the Messiah is because I can read the text of the "Tanach" in it's original language.

Think about that.

And I have a English/Hebrew/Greek Concordance, it weighs about as much as a Toyota, and can cross reference passage all day long without being able to, in effect, read or write Hebrew or Greek. The meanings of original manuscript words can be found and understood. Can you give some specific examples of Hebrew texts that have been corrupted that we can look into?

I've got tons of them but we can start with Isaiah 7.

[Allen-T]

There's no such thing as a Jewish Christian.

Just like there are no Christian Muslims, Buddhist Christians, Muslim Hindus, etc.

If Jewishness was based purely on blood as you seem to suggest it should be, Israel would be required to take in millions of Muslims who were once Jews and who were forcibly converted. That would be insane.

The "Messianic" Jewish movement is not Jewish at all. It is financed by the Southern Baptist convention as a way to deceive Jews into apostasy. They deserve no recognition by Israel or the Jewish people in any way. They certainly deserve recognition by Protestant Chrisianity, but not Judaism and not Israel. They go after homeless people, mental patients, old people in retirement homes. I’ve seen it myself.

 When I lived in Israel, there was a missionary in my neighborhood. He brought a girl from South Africa who began sleeping with different homeless people in order to turn them Christian. I saw it with my own eyes. She would hang around outside the soup kitchen in a mini-skirt and heels flirting with these homeless and mentally disturbed lonely men.

 I spoke to one of the guys who converted. He said that she was sleeping with him and 4 other guys from the soup kitchen. You may not be aware of this, but these are the tactics that missionaries use.

They also dress up as orthodox jews and ask to check the mezuzot(small torah scrolls that are affixed to doorposts) of secular Jews. Then they take the scroll, erase the name of G-d and put a cross in place of the name of G-d. I have seen numerous examples of their handiwork.

 Before you automatically defend that, THINK ABOUT IT. Is that what you want to do in this world, erase the name of G-d and put a Roman murder device in place of G-d’s holy name?

But then again, this issue highlights one of the main problems with a Jewish-Christian alliance.

Christians are required to proselytize in all places to all people. I understand that this is your belief, but I hope you don’t think that I am crazy enough to help you convert my people to your religion? How would you like it if I went around trying to convert your children, your elderly, your fellow Christians? You would like it around as much as we do.

 I wish that we could call a truce. Jews will not try to convert and Christians will not try to convert Jews. That is ultimately fair.

 But instead, Christians spend tens of millions of dollars a year trying to convert Jews. Jews are required to discourage conversion. Therefore, we are at an absolute disadvantage and I hope you don’t think that we’re going to add to that disadvantage by accepting Christians whose parents or grandparents were Jewish as “Jews”.

That would be insane.

And as far as Christian support of Israel is concerned, if you think that you are going to help Israel and then say “Now you owe us, Accept Christian Jews as Jews or we’ll stop supporting Israel.” Please STOP supporting Israel immediately. We don’t want or need such “support”. It says in the Torah, “Am levadad yishkon” Behold, it is a nation that shall dwell alone.

Israel will survive with or without Christian support. Israel will survive because it is G-d’s will that it survive.

The fact that there are any Jews alive today in 2007 is an absolute miracle. We were almost wiped out by Christians multiple times, so please excuse me if I don’t help your missionaries to wipe us out spiritually.

I have known many Jews that accepted Christ including Jews For Jesus people and have never seen the abhorrations you are describing. If you saw such things, they were in no way typical. Most Christians I know, including myself, stand with Jews because the Bible commands us to. My rewards come from G-d not man. I expect nothing from any man, Jew or otherwise. I support JTF because of common goals. Bible believing Christians don't need to play the type of games you have witnessed. We know that if G-d is calling someone, Jew or otherwise, all we as Christians have to do is make ourselves available vessels. G-d does the rest. I heard Chaim recently talking about how Jews For Jesus do underhanded things, misinterpret scriptures, etc. I don't know who he met or saw doing this, but Christians, including Jews For Jesus have no need to do these deceptive things. The type of behavior you are describing is generally only employed by people who are knowingly trying to deceive people. We Christians don't need to do that so why would we? Now, to be fair, there is ALOT of crazy bunk out there passing itself off as Christianity. The devil doesn't deceive by revealing himself as he truly is, but rather by using carefully constructed imitations of truth. So I do understand the confusion here, but Bible believing Christians do not have the nefarious motives you suggest.        

[mord]

Yeah, you're right Robert Novak is not self-hating.
After he converted to Christianity, he has become one of the most outspoken anti- Israel conservative pundits.

Novak has always hated Jews even when he was Jewish

[Allen-T]

I will continue to insist that there can be such thing as a Jewish Christian, if there can't be, then the entire Christian religion would have to be a lie, as the idea of the Christian faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ as the messiah who was promised to the Jews.

Continue to insist what you wish. But just one thing for you to chew on.

The reason that I know that Christianity is a lie and Jesus was not the Messiah is because I can read the text of the "Tanach" in it's original language.

Think about that.

And I have a English/Hebrew/Greek Concordance, it weighs about as much as a Toyota, and can cross reference passage all day long without being able to, in effect, read or write Hebrew or Greek. The meanings of original manuscript words can be found and understood. Can you give some specific examples of Hebrew texts that have been corrupted that we can look into?

I've got tons of them but we can start with Isaiah 7.

Ok, what about Isaiah chapter 7, I presume verses 14-16?