The Law of Return and Jewish Christians?

[Carlyle]

There's no such thing as a Jewish Christian.

Yes there is. The son of a Jewish mother is Jewish whether he is atheist, Buddhist or Christian according to Halakha.

In fact, discussion about Jewish Christians and Greek Christians is a major topic in the New Testament.

Just like there are no Christian Muslims, Buddhist Christians, Muslim Hindus, etc.

The Jews are a people. Christianity, Islam and Buddhism are religions.

If Jewishness was based purely on blood as you seem to suggest it should be, Israel would be required to take in millions of Muslims who were once Jews and who were forcibly converted. That would be insane.

There aren't millions of Muslims who are Jewish by blood. In fact, there are hardly any Jewish Muslims.

I am disappointed though that the Jewish Muslims and atheist Jews are allowed to become citizens of Israel under the Law of Return while Christians are not.

The "Messianic" Jewish movement is not Jewish at all. It is financed by the Southern Baptist convention as a way to deceive Jews into apostasy. They deserve no recognition by Israel or the Jewish people in any way. They certainly deserve recognition by Protestant Chrisianity, but not Judaism and not Israel. They go after homeless people, mental patients, old people in retirement homes. I’ve seen it myself.

 When I lived in Israel, there was a missionary in my neighborhood. He brought a girl from South Africa who began sleeping with different homeless people in order to turn them Christian. I saw it with my own eyes. She would hang around outside the soup kitchen in a mini-skirt and heels flirting with these homeless and mentally disturbed lonely men.

 I spoke to one of the guys who converted. He said that she was sleeping with him and 4 other guys from the soup kitchen. You may not be aware of this, but these are the tactics that missionaries use.

They also dress up as orthodox jews and ask to check the mezuzot(small torah scrolls that are affixed to doorposts) of secular Jews. Then they take the scroll, erase the name of G-d and put a cross in place of the name of G-d. I have seen numerous examples of their handiwork.

 Before you automatically defend that, THINK ABOUT IT. Is that what you want to do in this world, erase the name of G-d and put a Roman murder device in place of G-d’s holy name?

If some missionaries have done anything like that I regard them with contempt.

But then again, this issue highlights one of the main problems with a Jewish-Christian alliance.

Christians are required to proselytize in all places to all people. I understand that this is your belief, but I hope you don’t think that I am crazy enough to help you convert my people to your religion? How would you like it if I went around trying to convert your children, your elderly, your fellow Christians? You would like it around as much as we do.

 I wish that we could call a truce. Jews will not try to convert and Christians will not try to convert Jews. That is ultimately fair.

 But instead, Christians spend tens of millions of dollars a year trying to convert Jews. Jews are required to discourage conversion. Therefore, we are at an absolute disadvantage and I hope you don’t think that we’re going to add to that disadvantage by accepting Christians whose parents or grandparents were Jewish as “Jews”.

That would be insane.

And as far as Christian support of Israel is concerned, if you think that you are going to help Israel and then say “Now you owe us, Accept Christian Jews as Jews or we’ll stop supporting Israel.” Please STOP supporting Israel immediately. We don’t want or need such “support”. It says in the Torah, “Am levadad yishkon” Behold, it is a nation that shall dwell alone.

Israel will survive with or without Christian support. Israel will survive because it is G-d’s will that it survive.

The fact that there are any Jews alive today in 2007 is an absolute miracle. We were almost wiped out by Christians multiple times, so please excuse me if I don’t help your missionaries to wipe us out spiritually.

I don't think the existence of a people which has survived countless persecutions is threatened by missionaries.

Finally, can somebody tell my why why atheists or Buddhists who are not Jews according to Halakha (have only one Jewish grandfather) are allowed to benefit from the Law of Return whereas Christians who have a Jewish mother are are not allowed to do so?

[Lisa]

Carlyle, if you have a Jewish mother, then you are Jewish. 

[Lisa]

In one of the Ask JTF shows, Chaim touched on the subject of people with questionable Jewish ancestry being allowed to come live in Israel.  He used the example of Russian Jews.  He said that in their case they were pretty much forced to abandon their Judaism.  But then again, I'm not Russian, and I don't know the exact laws for non-Jews moving to Israel.  So you might want to ask Chaim this for his next show.

[Carlyle]

Carlyle, if you have a Jewish mother, then you are Jewish. 

I know that. However, to immigrate under the Law of Return you do not need to be a Jew. It is enough that you have one Jewish grandparent.

In the case of Christians it is different. It is not enough that you are a Jew. You are still not allowed to immigrate.

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/twersky080598.html

BROTHER DANIEL RUFEISEN’S death in Israel last week puts to an end one of the strangest stories to emerge from the horror years in Europe more than half a century ago.

Brother Daniel led the Carmelite monks in Haifa. His fame came almost four decades ago when he immigrated to Israel and asked to be listed as a Jew under the Law of Return. The case highlighted the bizarre twists and turns of Jewish identity politics. Those familiar only with the modern Who is a Jew? controversies may find it interesting to discover that the first great test case in Israeli law centered on a Catholic priest who saw his national fate and destiny as part of the Jewish people.

Moreover, the Chief Rabbinate’s and Israel’s Supreme Court’s positions were the reverse of today’s predictable stands. The rabbinate ruled that the priest should be given citizenship as a Jew; born to Jewish parents, his fate was with his people, regardless of any faith decisions he had made along the way.

The Supreme Court, today the favored venue for those seeking to expand recognition to non-Orthodox streams, ruled that despite the halachic logic of the rabbinate’s position and the unusual circumstances (Daniel had single-handedly saved several hundred Jews in the town of Mir), you couldn’t be both a Catholic priest and a Jew. Es past nisht.

[ftf]

judeanoncapta, as you've raised the issue, bring it, prove that Christianity is wrong from your knowledge of Hebrew and the tanakh.

[Dr. Dan]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

When a Jew converts to Christianity or is a believer in Jesus christ as the Messiah, Lord and Savior...he/she is a Christian..plain and simple...A christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ...Nothing wrong with that if it works for someone. but you can't be a Jew and a Christian at the same time...It's like me being a man and a woman at the same time...or 100% African and 100% Caucasian at the same time..  IF you like Jesus, go with it...

[Dr. Dan]

But thats precisely the problem, they are "christian jews", you cannot be both in terms of race, maybe but in practical understanding you are one or the other.

I would say that someone who properly understands the christian mindset would have to disagree with you there.

Every Jew I know and have talked to that has accepted Christ thinks of themselves as a complete Jew, not as a Christian who is no longer a Jew.

Allen-T, I have to disagree with those that believe they are "complete Jews".

I have no qualms with anyone who wants to follow the Christian Bible/New Testament or anyone who accepts Jesus Christ..let me just say that first.  But once a person accepts Jesus and the Christian Bible/New Testament, he/she is a Christian...maybe he/she is a Jew by birth..but his/her religion is christianity...no longer a Jew..he/she has forfeited the Jewish faith by accepting the Christian faith...nothign wrong with that if that makes a person feel better about themself.  Although I would disagree vehemently with what he/she decides to do, I am no one to judge how someone wants to walk with G-d

[ftf]

I'll leave it bluntly, to a Christian, the idea of a Jewish Christian is comman sense, to a non-christian the idea of a Jewish Christian is a contradiction.

[Allen-T]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

When a Jew converts to Christianity or is a believer in Jesus christ as the Messiah, Lord and Savior...he/she is a Christian..plain and simple...A christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ...Nothing wrong with that if it works for someone. but you can't be a Jew and a Christian at the same time...It's like me being a man and a woman at the same time...or 100% African and 100% Caucasian at the same time..  IF you like Jesus, go with it...

I disagree with you. I have heard Rav Kahane and Chaim state that Jews are a people, as well as a religion. So if a Jew is a part of the people and chooses to follow Christ, he is then not of the people?? I heard Rav Kahane say a Jew is a Jew regardless. How can one consider Woody Allen for example still a Jew but not say, my Pastor's friend Sam Nadler who visits our congregation often? There is something wrong there.     

[Shlomo]

I disagree with you. I have heard Rav Kahane and Chaim state that Jews are a people, as well as a religion. So if a Jew is a part of the people and chooses to follow Christ, he is then not of the people?? I heard Rav Kahane say a Jew is a Jew regardless. How can one consider Woody Allen for example still a Jew but not say, my Pastor's friend Sam Nadler who visits our congregation often? There is something wrong there.

Yes, a Jew is a Jew. It doesn't matter if the Jew is a Buddhist, they are still a Jew.

[jsullivan]

Jews are a people. But how can they can be a people when there are Jews of all different races and ethnicities? The answer is that the Jewish religion makes them a people. Without the common religion, there is no reason for blond-haired Russian Jews and black Ethiopian Jews to be part of the same people.

Therefore, if a Jew converts to another religion, ANY other religion, he is no longer a Jew.

Carlyle, you are distorting Israel's Law of Return. My son is a convert to Judaism who lives in Israel so I am very familar with the subject. A Jew who converts to Islam or any other religion is NOT allowed to make aliyah (immigrate to Israel). The law EXPLICITLY states that Jews who convert to other religions are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return.

Jewish atheists can immigrate to Israel because they have not taken the ultimate step of actually joining another religion. The atheists are indeed committing a very serious sin in the Jewish faith by denying G-d's existence. But they have still not actually joined another religion, and in effect joined another people.

Finally, Judaism does not accept the view that a Jewish convert to Christianity is a "fulfilled Jew" or a "completed Jew". This arrogant and insulting claim means that a Jew who does NOT believe in Christianity is "unfulfilled" and "incomplete". You expect Jews to accept such an insulting concept? The Jews are not Christians. If you demand that they accept the view that Jewish converts are "fulfilled" and "completed", then you are demanding that the Jews become Christians. If you want to support the Jews and Israel as the Bible commands all of us to do, then you have to accept the fact that you are supporting a people who are not Christian. Otherwise, you are making conversion to Christianity a precondition for your support. Which is something the Jews are very familar with. For 2,000 years, the Jews were warned that they had better convert or else. And anyone who knows history, knows what the "or else" meant - crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels and finally the holocaust.

[Allen-T]

Jews are a people. But how can they can be a people when there are Jews of all different races and ethnicities? The answer is that the Jewish religion makes them a people. Without the common religion, there is no reason for blond-haired Russian Jews and black Ethiopian Jews to be part of the same people.

Therefore, if a Jew converts to another religion, ANY other religion, he is no longer a Jew.

Carlyle, you are distorting Israel's Law of Return. My son is a convert to Judaism who lives in Israel so I am very familar with the subject. A Jew who converts to Islam or any other religion is NOT allowed to make aliyah (immigrate to Israel). The law EXPLICITLY states that Jews who convert to other religions are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return.

Jewish atheists can immigrate to Israel because they have not taken the ultimate step of actually joining another religion. The atheists are indeed committing a very serious sin in the Jewish faith by denying G-d's existence. But they have still not actually joined another religion, and in effect joined another people.

Finally, Judaism does not accept the view that a Jewish convert to Christianity is a "fulfilled Jew" or a "completed Jew". This arrogant and insulting claim means that a Jew who does NOT believe in Christianity is "unfulfilled" and "incomplete". You expect Jews to accept such an insulting concept? The Jews are not Christians. If you demand that they accept the view that Jewish converts are "fulfilled" and "completed", then you are demanding that the Jews become Christians. If you want to support the Jews and Israel as the Bible commands all of us to do, then you have to accept the fact that you are supporting a people who are not Christian. Otherwise, you are making conversion to Christianity a precondition for your support. Which is something the Jews are very familar with. For 2,000 years, the Jews were warned that they had better convert or else. And anyone who knows history, knows what the "or else" meant - crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels and finally the holocaust.

Jimmy,
What then does Rabbi Kahane mean when he says that a Jew is a Jew regardless of whether or not he is a practicioner of the religion? He said this on the National Press Club program. He said it's unfortunate that they are not observant, but they are still Jews. So you mean if a Jew accepts Jesus he is not a Jew, but if he worships money and worldly success he's still a Jew? I don't understand. Chaim said on one of the shows I posted that Jews are a religion AND a people and Islam is only a religion. But if the religion makes you a people why aren't muslims a people also?

[Dr. Dan]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

When a Jew converts to Christianity or is a believer in Jesus christ as the Messiah, Lord and Savior...he/she is a Christian..plain and simple...A christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ...Nothing wrong with that if it works for someone. but you can't be a Jew and a Christian at the same time...It's like me being a man and a woman at the same time...or 100% African and 100% Caucasian at the same time..  IF you like Jesus, go with it...

I disagree with you. I have heard Rav Kahane and Chaim state that Jews are a people, as well as a religion. So if a Jew is a part of the people and chooses to follow Christ, he is then not of the people?? I heard Rav Kahane say a Jew is a Jew regardless. How can one consider Woody Allen for example still a Jew but not say, my Pastor's friend Sam Nadler who visits our congregation often? There is something wrong there.     

once again, I will kindly have to disagree.  Christianity is another faith another theology which is anti-Judiaism (i don't mean hateful of or against Judaism) What I mean by anti-Judaism is that it is an unJewish religion. I'm not saying that the person is not of the Israelite people.  He simply is practicing a religion which pretty much in some ways opposite to Judaism...  He immigrated to another relgion, Joined a different team.  He's a Christian who used to be a Jew. His soul has gone to the other faith.  He's not Jewish...anymore becuase he willfully gave his soul for Jesus.  he's a Christian. He went on the other team. 

You know David Wright, a baseball player is on the NY Mets. If he was traded to the Blue Jays, he would be a Blue Jay...not a Met...right?  It's simple. 

I would suggest to ask this question on the ask jtf show.  Not that chaim is the final authorita, but what the rabbis say about Jews who willfully turn over their souls to a different religion whether it be Christianity, Islam, Buddhism etc.  And how a Kahanist govt woudl treat the law of return for a Jew turn his soul over to another established religion and officially converting to it.

[Allen-T]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

When a Jew converts to Christianity or is a believer in Jesus christ as the Messiah, Lord and Savior...he/she is a Christian..plain and simple...A christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ...Nothing wrong with that if it works for someone. but you can't be a Jew and a Christian at the same time...It's like me being a man and a woman at the same time...or 100% African and 100% Caucasian at the same time..  IF you like Jesus, go with it...

I disagree with you. I have heard Rav Kahane and Chaim state that Jews are a people, as well as a religion. So if a Jew is a part of the people and chooses to follow Christ, he is then not of the people?? I heard Rav Kahane say a Jew is a Jew regardless. How can one consider Woody Allen for example still a Jew but not say, my Pastor's friend Sam Nadler who visits our congregation often? There is something wrong there.     

once again, I will kindly have to disagree.  Christianity is another faith another theology which is anti-Judiaism (i don't mean hateful of or against Judaism) What I mean by anti-Judaism is that it is an unJewish religion. I'm not saying that the person is not of the Israelite people.  However, he longer is practising Judaism...he's not Jewish..he's a Christian. He went on the other team.  You know David Wright is on the Mets. If he was traded to the Blue Jays, he still wouldn't be a met..He would be a Blue Jays...

I understand you, but I have heard Rav Kahane say something else and Chaim as well. Chaim says he is an ant compared to Rabbi Kahane. So I want to know what this great Jewish leader could have meant? It seems to me that what Rabbi Kahane said is true, but for some reason when it's applied to Jews that accept Christianity a double standard arises? Also, there is no reason for anyone to get in a huff[I'm not saying anyone has], I am asking about this from genuine curiosity, talking about baseball,Israeli politics,cucumbers doesn't interest me, Bible stuff does.   

[Dr. Dan]

Messanic Jews are hertics, its based on biology to, this why Cochin,Falashas,and Bene Israel got the law of return because they have Hebrew blood. Are part Jewish biologicaly?

What do you mean? Christian Jews are biologically as Jewish as anybody else.

When a Jew converts to Christianity or is a believer in Jesus christ as the Messiah, Lord and Savior...he/she is a Christian..plain and simple...A christian by definition believes in Jesus Christ...Nothing wrong with that if it works for someone. but you can't be a Jew and a Christian at the same time...It's like me being a man and a woman at the same time...or 100% African and 100% Caucasian at the same time..  IF you like Jesus, go with it...

I disagree with you. I have heard Rav Kahane and Chaim state that Jews are a people, as well as a religion. So if a Jew is a part of the people and chooses to follow Christ, he is then not of the people?? I heard Rav Kahane say a Jew is a Jew regardless. How can one consider Woody Allen for example still a Jew but not say, my Pastor's friend Sam Nadler who visits our congregation often? There is something wrong there.     

once again, I will kindly have to disagree.  Christianity is another faith another theology which is anti-Judiaism (i don't mean hateful of or against Judaism) What I mean by anti-Judaism is that it is an unJewish religion. I'm not saying that the person is not of the Israelite people.  However, he longer is practising Judaism...he's not Jewish..he's a Christian. He went on the other team.  You know David Wright is on the Mets. If he was traded to the Blue Jays, he still wouldn't be a met..He would be a Blue Jays...

I understand you, but I have heard Rav Kahane say something else and Chaim as well. Chaim says he is an ant compared to Rabbi Kahane. So I want to know what this great Jewish leader could have meant? It seems to me that what Rabbi Kahane said is true, but for some reason when it's applied to Jews that accept Christianity a double standard arises? Also, there is no reason for anyone to get in a huff[I'm not saying anyone has], I am asking about this from genuine curiosity, talking about baseball,Israeli politics,cucumbers doesn't interest me, Bible stuff does.   

Allen-T, I know where your theology stands and I have a lot of respect for you. I know in your way you need to see a certain truth.  I'll be honest, I don't know exactly what Rabbi Kahane said and to what context in regards to Jews who simply don't practice Judaism or practice other religions without officially converting to them.  I am almost sure that in the Talmud, the Rabbis talk about the difference between the two...eg, an Israelite who practices avodah zara (idolotry) at home vs an Israelite who goes to the temple of the idols and gives offerings to that idol.  In mondern day lingo, it would be a Jew is non-observant and goes to shul once in awhile and also believes that Jesus was a prophet and so was Mohammed and does some Buddhist type practices at home vs a Jew who goes to church every Sunday or mosque every Friday and bows and prays like all other woshippers vs a Jew who goes to a priest and gets baptized and in the name of the father son and holy ghost is a Christian vs a Jew who would have been murdered unless he converted and chose conversion.  I'm sure there is a lovely book out there about it.

[jsullivan]

Jews are a people. But how can they can be a people when there are Jews of all different races and ethnicities? The answer is that the Jewish religion makes them a people. Without the common religion, there is no reason for blond-haired Russian Jews and black Ethiopian Jews to be part of the same people.

Therefore, if a Jew converts to another religion, ANY other religion, he is no longer a Jew.

Carlyle, you are distorting Israel's Law of Return. My son is a convert to Judaism who lives in Israel so I am very familar with the subject. A Jew who converts to Islam or any other religion is NOT allowed to make aliyah (immigrate to Israel). The law EXPLICITLY states that Jews who convert to other religions are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return.

Jewish atheists can immigrate to Israel because they have not taken the ultimate step of actually joining another religion. The atheists are indeed committing a very serious sin in the Jewish faith by denying G-d's existence. But they have still not actually joined another religion, and in effect joined another people.

Finally, Judaism does not accept the view that a Jewish convert to Christianity is a "fulfilled Jew" or a "completed Jew". This arrogant and insulting claim means that a Jew who does NOT believe in Christianity is "unfulfilled" and "incomplete". You expect Jews to accept such an insulting concept? The Jews are not Christians. If you demand that they accept the view that Jewish converts are "fulfilled" and "completed", then you are demanding that the Jews become Christians. If you want to support the Jews and Israel as the Bible commands all of us to do, then you have to accept the fact that you are supporting a people who are not Christian. Otherwise, you are making conversion to Christianity a precondition for your support. Which is something the Jews are very familar with. For 2,000 years, the Jews were warned that they had better convert or else. And anyone who knows history, knows what the "or else" meant - crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels and finally the holocaust.

Jimmy,
What then does Rabbi Kahane mean when he says that a Jew is a Jew regardless of whether or not he is a practicioner of the religion? He said this on the National Press Club program. He said it's unfortunate that they are not observant, but they are still Jews. So you mean if a Jew accepts Jesus he is not a Jew, but if he worships money and worldly success he's still a Jew? I don't understand. Chaim said on one of the shows I posted that Jews are a religion AND a people and Islam is only a religion. But if the religion makes you a people why aren't muslims a people also?

Rabbi Kahane was speaking about Jews who are not observant, which is different from Jews who go the extra step of actually joining another religion.

There certainly are Jews who worship money and worldly success, just as there are Christians who worship money and worldly success. It is a sin to worship money and worldly success, but a sinful Jew is still a Jew. Just as a sinful Christian is still a Christian. Allen, as you know, all of us are sinners. But being a sinful Jew is different from being a Jew who converts to another religion. A Jew who converts has left the Jewish people. The same is true for Christians. A sinful Christian is still a Christian. But a Christian who becomes a Muslim or joins another religion is no longer a Christian.

The Jews are a people because of their religion. The Muslims are not. In that respect, the Jews are unique. I didn't make this rule, G-d did. G-d created the Jewish people at Mount Sinai when He gave them the Torah with 613 commandments. And G-d told the Jews that He was establishing an "eternal covenant" with them. We know that this covenant is eternal not only because it says so in the Bible but also because G-d has fulfilled His promises to the Jews by miraculously returning them to the Land of Israel against all odds after 2,000 years.

Allen, you and I as Gentiles are required to support the Jewish return to the Land of Israel without preconditions. The Jews that G-d miraculously brought back to Israel were not Christians. The Jews who won the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War were not Christians. So G-d is continuing to fulfill his "eternal covenant" with the Jews.

"I will bless them that bless thee, and those that curse thee shall I curse" is unconditional.  

[Allen-T]

Jews are a people. But how can they can be a people when there are Jews of all different races and ethnicities? The answer is that the Jewish religion makes them a people. Without the common religion, there is no reason for blond-haired Russian Jews and black Ethiopian Jews to be part of the same people.

Therefore, if a Jew converts to another religion, ANY other religion, he is no longer a Jew.

Carlyle, you are distorting Israel's Law of Return. My son is a convert to Judaism who lives in Israel so I am very familar with the subject. A Jew who converts to Islam or any other religion is NOT allowed to make aliyah (immigrate to Israel). The law EXPLICITLY states that Jews who convert to other religions are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return.

Jewish atheists can immigrate to Israel because they have not taken the ultimate step of actually joining another religion. The atheists are indeed committing a very serious sin in the Jewish faith by denying G-d's existence. But they have still not actually joined another religion, and in effect joined another people.

Finally, Judaism does not accept the view that a Jewish convert to Christianity is a "fulfilled Jew" or a "completed Jew". This arrogant and insulting claim means that a Jew who does NOT believe in Christianity is "unfulfilled" and "incomplete". You expect Jews to accept such an insulting concept? The Jews are not Christians. If you demand that they accept the view that Jewish converts are "fulfilled" and "completed", then you are demanding that the Jews become Christians. If you want to support the Jews and Israel as the Bible commands all of us to do, then you have to accept the fact that you are supporting a people who are not Christian. Otherwise, you are making conversion to Christianity a precondition for your support. Which is something the Jews are very familar with. For 2,000 years, the Jews were warned that they had better convert or else. And anyone who knows history, knows what the "or else" meant - crusades, pogroms, inquisitions, blood libels and finally the holocaust.

Jimmy,
What then does Rabbi Kahane mean when he says that a Jew is a Jew regardless of whether or not he is a practicioner of the religion? He said this on the National Press Club program. He said it's unfortunate that they are not observant, but they are still Jews. So you mean if a Jew accepts Jesus he is not a Jew, but if he worships money and worldly success he's still a Jew? I don't understand. Chaim said on one of the shows I posted that Jews are a religion AND a people and Islam is only a religion. But if the religion makes you a people why aren't muslims a people also?

Rabbi Kahane was speaking about Jews who are not observant, which is different from Jews who go the extra step of actually joining another religion.

There certainly are Jews who worship money and worldly success, just as there are Christians who worship money and worldly success. It is a sin to worship money and worldly success, but a sinful Jew is still a Jew. Just as a sinful Christian is still a Christian. Allen, as you know, all of us are sinners. But being a sinful Jew is different from being a Jew who converts to another religion. A Jew who converts has left the Jewish people. The same is true for Christians. A sinful Christian is still a Christian. But a Christian who becomes a Muslim or joins another religion is no longer a Christian.

The Jews are a people because of their religion. The Muslims are not. In that respect, the Jews are unique. I didn't make this rule, G-d did. G-d created the Jewish people at Mount Sinai when He gave them the Torah with 613 commandments. And G-d told the Jews that He was establishing an "eternal covenant" with them. We know that this covenant is eternal not only because it says so in the Bible but also because G-d has fulfilled His promises to the Jews by miraculously returning them to the Land of Israel against all odds after 2,000 years.

Allen, you and I as Gentiles are required to support the Jewish return to the Land of Israel without preconditions. The Jews that G-d miraculously brought back to Israel were not Christians. The Jews who won the 1948 War of Independence and the 1967 Six Day War were not Christians. So G-d is continuing to fulfill his "eternal covenant" with the Jews.

"I will bless them that bless thee, and those that curse thee shall I curse" is unconditional.  

What do you mean preconditions? Are you referring to something I said?

[jsullivan]

Allen, I wasn't referring to what you said. I was speaking in general about anyone issuing ultimatums to the Jews. That the Jews have to fulfill certain conditions in order to get support or acceptance. That certainly goes against the spirit of the Biblical commandment to back Israel.

Of course, I don't put you in that category. You are here helping because you understand what the Bible says about Israel. There are people who support JTF for all types of reasons. But you support JTF for the best reason: because you understand that fighting to save America and Israel is what G-d wants us to do.

[Allen-T]

Allen, I wasn't referring to what you said. I was speaking in general about anyone issuing ultimatums to the Jews. That the Jews have to fulfill certain conditions in order to get support or acceptance. That certainly goes against the spirit of the Biblical commandment to back Israel.

Of course, I don't put you in that category. You are here helping because you understand what the Bible says about Israel. There are people who support JTF for all types of reasons. But you support JTF for the best reason: because you understand that fighting to save America and Israel is what G-d wants us to do.

Oh, ok!

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

The reason that I know that Christianity is a lie and Jesus was not the Messiah is because I can read the text of the "Tanach" in it's original language.

Sounds like I should learn Hebrew. (Not to specifically disprove you, but to be able to learn about my own faith in the original language.)

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Guys, we are friends and allies here. Please let this not get too heated.

Carlyle, I am truly sorry about your experience... this is one way in which you can relate to Chaim, after all.   

[Carlyle]

Jews are a people. But how can they can be a people when there are Jews of all different races and ethnicities? The answer is that the Jewish religion makes them a people. Without the common religion, there is no reason for blond-haired Russian Jews and black Ethiopian Jews to be part of the same people.

Therefore, if a Jew converts to another religion, ANY other religion, he is no longer a Jew.

No, the children of a Jewish mother are Jews are always Jews halakhically. This is affirmed by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel.
 

Carlyle, you are distorting Israel's Law of Return. My son is a convert to Judaism who lives in Israel so I am very familar with the subject. A Jew who converts to Islam or any other religion is NOT allowed to make aliyah (immigrate to Israel). The law EXPLICITLY states that Jews who convert to other religions are ineligible for immigration under the Law of Return.

I know the law. The law is unjust and violates Halakha as I said in my first post in this thread.

People who are halakhically Jewish (like Daniel Rufeisen) are not allowed to make aliyah whereas people who aren't Jewish (like the children of Commander Shalit and his Gentile wife) are allowed to.

http://www.jafi.org.il/education/actual/conv4.html

Jewish atheists can immigrate to Israel because they have not taken the ultimate step of actually joining another religion. The atheists are indeed committing a very serious sin in the Jewish faith by denying G-d's existence. But they have still not actually joined another religion, and in effect joined another people.

Atheism is a religion.

Finally, Judaism does not accept the view that a Jewish convert to Christianity is a "fulfilled Jew" or a "completed Jew". This arrogant and insulting claim means that a Jew who does NOT believe in Christianity is "unfulfilled" and "incomplete". You expect Jews to accept such an insulting concept?

I didn't say anything like that.

[Dr. Dan]

Guys, we are friends and allies here. Please let this not get too heated.

Listen, there is nothing wrong with being passionate about one's theology...just keep it respectful and always add in the beginning of a sentence, "in my opinion..."

[judeanoncapta]

judeanoncapta, as you've raised the issue, bring it, prove that Christianity is wrong from your knowledge of Hebrew and the tanakh.

Here we go. There are plenty of examples but I will start with one of the most important ones to Christianity. Isaiah 7:14.

Here is how the King James translates it.

14Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Sounds pretty good for christianity. G-d is showing us a sign. A virgin birth and the child is called Immanuel which means G-d is with us.

Perfect!!!!

Not quite.

King James mistranslates two key words “a virgin”. The word for a virgin in Hebrew is Bethulah. The words actually used in this verse are HaAlmah. This means THE young woman. Before you say that young woman and virgin are the synonymous, look at Proverbs 30:19. I’ll quote the verse before and the verse after for the sake of context.

18 There are three things which are too wonderful for me, yea, four which I know not:
19 The way of an eagle in the air; the way of a serpent upon a rock; {N}
the way of a ship in the midst of the sea; and the way of a man with a young woman.
20 So is the way of an adulterous woman; {N}
she eateth, and wipeth her mouth, and saith: 'I have done no wickedness.'

The young woman word here is again Almah. The same word from Isaiah 7:14. Quoted in a sexual context as in the way of a man with a young woman. So is the way of an adulterous woman. Obviously Almah is not synonymous with virgin.

Now before I said the King James mistranslated two words. Turning the young woman into a virgin. Well, what is the word “the” doing there. If it is a woman 6 or 7 hundred years in the future as Christianity believes, the specificity of “the” would be a problem, so King James deletes “the” and replaces it with “a”.

 So, why is the “the” in there?

Because “the woman” is the wife of Ahaz. 

Let’s look at the full context line by line:
1 And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Aram, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up to Jerusalem to war against it; but could not prevail against it.

I think we can see the picture here. Israel was split into two kingdoms, Judah and Israel. Ahaz was king of Judah and Pekah was king of Israel. Pekah hooks up with Rezin king of Aram to attack Judah kingdom which is based in Jerusalem.

 2 And it was told the house of David, saying: 'Aram is confederate with Ephraim.' And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the forest are moved with the wind.

Ephraim was the largest of the tribes of the Kingdom of Israel and therefore is used euphemistically as Israel. And the house of David ie. King Ahaz was frightened of them and so were the people of Judah.

3 Then said the LORD unto Isaiah: 'Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shear-jashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool, in the highway of the fullers' field;

Ok, Isaiah goes to meet Ahaz as G-d tells him. He goes with his son Shear Jashub. This is more very important context. Shear Jashub means “a remnant will return.” This is our first example of a child’s name being a symbol of things to come. Symbolic of prophetic happenings. This is used a lot in Hosea and in the next couple of chapters of Isaiah as we will see.

4 and say unto him: Keep calm, and be quiet; fear not, neither let thy heart be faint, because of these two tails of smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram, and of the son of Remaliah.

Simple. Don’t be afraid of Rezin king of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel.

 5 Because Aram hath counselled evil against thee, Ephraim also, and the son of Remaliah, saying: 6 Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set up a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeel.

Simple. Aram and Israel want to attack and take over Judah and set up a puppet government run by a lackey of theirs “the son of Tabeel”.

7 thus saith the Lord GOD: It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.

A prophecy that Rezin and Pekah will not succeed in their plan.

 8 For the head of Aram is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Rezin; and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people; 9 And the head of Ephraim is Samaria, and the head of Samaria is Remaliah's son. If ye will not have faith, surely ye shall not be established.'

A little terse. But you can get the basic point that Ephraim, meaning Israel will cease to be a people ie. the Ten Lost Tribes will be lost as they still are.

10 And the LORD spoke again unto Ahaz, saying: 11 'Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God: ask it either in the depth, or in the height above.'
G-d speaking through Isaiah tells Ahaz to request a sign from him.
12 But Ahaz said: 'I will not ask, neither will I try the LORD.'

Ahaz suddenly become very faithful and decides he doesn’t want to trouble G-d with providing him a sign.

 13 And he said: 'Hear ye now, O house of David: Is it a small thing for you to weary men, that ye will weary my God also?

Isaiah says not only do you “weary men” meaning reject prophetic sayings, but now you “weary my God also”. Meaning you reject G-d willingness to provide a sign for you.

14 Therefore the Lord Himself shall give you a sign: behold, the young woman shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

If this is referring to a woman 6 or 7 hundred years in the future as the New Testament maintains, it is a completely useless sign for Ahaz to request. He would be dead for six hundred years before the sign would materialize.

No, the young woman is the wife of Ahaz and Immanuel would be the name of his son.

 15 Curd and honey shall he eat, when he knoweth to refuse the evil, and choose the good.

He, the prince will eat expensive nice food like Curd and honey when he knows to refuse evil and choose good. Basically around the time he begins to speak. As we will see in Isaiah 8:4.

16 Yea, before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land whose two kings thou hast a horror of shall be forsaken.
So, the sign is that before the child reaches this age where he begins to speak and knows to refuse evil and choose good, The land of Aram and Israel will be forsaken.

17 The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father's house, days that have not come, from the day that Ephraim departed from Judah; even the king of Assyria.'

This is the prophecy that the king of Assyria will destroy Ephraim, which is exactly what happened.

18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall hiss for the fly that is in the uttermost part of the rivers of Egypt, and for the bee that is in the land of Assyria.

The Bee of Assyria and the Fly of Egypt are a reference to the way that the armies will swarm in like bees and flies. That is the metaphor.

19 And they shall come, and shall rest all of them in the rugged valleys, and in the holes of the rocks, and upon all thorns, and upon all brambles.

When these armies come, the people of the Kingdom of Israel will be hiding in rugged valleys and holes in rocks from fear.

 20 In that day shall the Lord shave with a razor that is hired in the parts beyond the River, even with the king of Assyria, the head and the hair of the feet; and it shall also sweep away the beard. {P}

The shaving metaphor is one of destruction and humiliation for the kingdom of Israel.

Now let’s move on to Chapter 8:
1 And the LORD said unto me: 'Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it in common script: The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth;

Which in Hebrew is Maher-shalal-hashbaz.

 2 and I will take unto Me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah.'

Two witnesses as it says in the Torah, Bishnaim o sheloshah edim yaqum davar. With two or three witnesses shall a matter be established. For some reason this prophecy had to be witnessed. I’m don’t know exactly why. I don’t know everything.

3 And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bore a son.
The prophetess means Isaiah’s wife. Now G-d is going to tell Isaiah to name his son a prophetic symbol.

Then said the LORD unto me: 'Call his name Maher-shalal-hashbaz.
Which means “The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth”, as it says in verse 1.
Remember the context and understand how it relates to the name Immanuel. Immanuel is one of three children’s names mentioned in Chapter 7 and 8 OF Isaiah that are prophetic symbols, Shear-Jashub(Isaiah’s first son mentioned which means “a remnant will return”), Immanuel(Ahaz’s son, meaning G-d is with us) and Maher-halal-hashbaz(Isaiah’s second son mentioned, The spoil speedeth, the prey hasteth) With this context and with the overall context of the story, you will see that Immanuel G-d is with us, means G-d is with us, the Kingdom of Judah against the Kingdom of Israel and Aram.
Not, G-d forbid to say that G-d took a physical form and is now with us, walking around on the earth with us, as Christianity maintains. But in the way that is repeated all throughout the Torah and Prophets, that G-d is with us and is helping us against our enemies.
 
4 For before the child shall have knowledge to cry: My father, and: My mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be carried away before the king of Assyria.'

Like I said before the sign is that before the child can speak and say “Mommy” and “Daddy”, Assyria will destroy and plunder Aram and Israel. The sign of Immanuel is repeated here with Maher-halal-hashbaz. The same exact sign is repeated here. That is clear.

5 And the LORD spoke unto me yet again, saying: 6 Forasmuch as this people hath refused the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoiceth with Rezin and Remaliah's son;

Those who support Rezin and Pekah will receive the following fate:

7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the River, mighty and many, even the king of Assyria and all his glory; and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks;

The River metaphor is used for the King of Assyria and his army FLOODING the lands of Israel and Aram.

8 And he shall sweep through Judah overflowing as he passeth through he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.

The King of Assyria will sweep into Judah “reaching even to the neck”. Get the metaphor? The “flood” of Assyria will reach Judah’s neck, but Judah will not be destroyed by the Assyrians. This is what actually happened in the days of Hezekiah. Assyria laid siege on Jerusalem and were destroyed by a miracle. The Assyrian army woke up dead one morning. 

But look how the verse ends “Oh Immanuel”. Speak euphemistically to the yet unborn boy about the events that his name arose for.
In conclusion, the sign is not a virgin birth. It is that the events prophecied will happen so quickly that the child won’t even learn how to speak before it happens. That is the sign.

The idea that it’s talking about a child born 6 or 7 hundred years after all of the events that the sign is meant to signify, is COMPLETELY WRONG. Any honest person can see that.

I have many more examples of mistranslated and misinterpreted verses that the New Testament uses. But I chose to start with this one for it’s obvious importance. After you’re done digesting this one, we can move on to Zachariah 12,13 Psalm 22, 110 etc. If you have anything you want to challenge me on, write me a personal message and we can go over all of it together.

[Dr. Dan]

no post it on the board so I can learn too!