Canadian Radio reports Israel has attacked the Gaza Flotilla!

[muman613]

Do you know for a fact that there is not an innocent person on board, maybe someone who could be righteous except for the fact that they were mislead? I do not know for a fact, and this is all which concerns me...

Do not try to say that I think that the wicked should be spared... No, and you will recall 2 days ago I called for the entire flotilla to be blown out of the water. That was a sincere request, yet I also have had time to consider that there may be some who are innocent..

Do not think I am saying that Israel should not use all force against these enemies, and if the report I just read is true it seems that those who died were the ones who instigated the problem by stabbing an Israeli officer.

There may be more people killed and hurt in this episode before it is over..

בס''ד

No one who supports the Arab Muslim Nazis in Gaza is "innocent". Anyone who supports the Arabs is supporting the extermination of Israel.

This entire incident is another disgusting example of Jewish self-hatred. If we were in power, we would have killed all of them immediately from the air. But of course, there would never have been such a flotilla if we were in power because everyone would know how we would react and no one would dare try something like this.

Of course that would be the best solution. But I think that we will need Moshiach in order to accomplish that in this current world situation. I don't see that response with the current political parties...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

You are going a bit off on a tangent here. I did not ever compare Lot with a terrorist,

By comparing the situation with Lot and Stom and the situation with some "innocents" on an Arab Nazi flotilla, you did.

Because there were not 10 righteous people amongst the Sdomites, Hashem decided only Lot, his wife and daughters would be saved.

Once again, the Sdomites did not even intend to murder Avraham and family (like the Arabs and their allies desire) - the comparison is baseless and I will not be prevented from seeing it as ignorance.
They were cruel to each other but NOT to Avraham and didn't risk him.

I still cannot see the logic in your comparison. How can you compare a city full of Rashaim who didn't hurt Avraham's fly, and a warship of murderers and their supporters who ally themeselves with the enemy who sworn to finish Hitler's job? Would you react the same way you suggest if these not Gaza but Berlin they're heading to and SS troops they're shipping with?

It's obscene how you have mercy on anti-Semites (who cares if they're "brainwashed" or not).

I do not know the facts other than what I am reading... The media is only reporting that the ships are carrying humanitarian supplies, such as food, building materials, and such... There is no mention that they are bringing in weapons. If this is the deception which is being attempted then it will need to be exposed...

Why does it matter? the point is that these people are allying themeselves with an ENEMY, MORTAL ENEMY of the Jewish people.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Muman, give me one reason why we shouldn't be taking those who may survive an Israeli airstrike and put them in ovens

[muman613]

Ron,

My simple answer is that I want what you want, but I don't think that this is the time...

There are many problems coming Israels way... I do not like this news concerning Obama bringing up Israel in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty talks... There are many issues which need to be handled in a very careful manner. If Israel, and the Jewish people, do have the power, and I mean a strong Political system which will be able to sustain a prolonged attack against the civilian population, then indeed Israel should act in the best interest of Israel all the time.

What is important in my mind, concerning this flotilla, is that it be prevented from delivering its goods at all costs. I am 100% behind using any force to prevent this stuff from reaching gaza.

But the media will certainly have a field day with this...

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Do you know for a fact that there is not an innocent person on board, maybe someone who could be righteous except for the fact that they were mislead? I do not know for a fact, and this is all which concerns me...

Do not try to say that I think that the wicked should be spared... No, and you will recall 2 days ago I called for the entire flotilla to be blown out of the water. That was a sincere request, yet I also have had time to consider that there may be some who are innocent..

Do not think I am saying that Israel should not use all force against these enemies, and if the report I just read is true it seems that those who died were the ones who instigated the problem by stabbing an Israeli officer.

There may be more people killed and hurt in this episode before it is over..

בס''ד

No one who supports the Arab Muslim Nazis in Gaza is "innocent". Anyone who supports the Arabs is supporting the extermination of Israel.

This entire incident is another disgusting example of Jewish self-hatred. If we were in power, we would have killed all of them immediately from the air. But of course, there would never have been such a flotilla if we were in power because everyone would know how we would react and no one would dare try something like this.

Of course that would be the best solution. But I think that we will need Moshiach in order to accomplish that in this current world situation. I don't see that response with the current political parties...

בס''ד

The fact that Israel does not do what should be done in incidents like this is what is preventing Mashiach from coming. It is Chillul Hashem (desecration of G-d's name) not to immediately kill our Nazi Amalekite enemies.

There is no comparison with Avraham Avinu and Sdom (Sodom). Avraham thought there might be some righteous living in Sdom. But the Nazi Amalekites on these boats in the flotilla are already actively participating in a campaign to assist Israel's Arab Muslim enemies. Any one who participates in any campaign aimed at assisting the Arab Nazis in any way is evil and deserves destruction.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

but I don't think that this is the time...

You gave 0 justified reasons to this claim.

[Zelhar]

The self hating Israeli media is now busy with self flagellation and panic seeding over this incident.

[Luigi]

The JTF seems to be the only place with some common sense opinions over this incident. I'm glad to be here.

[muman613]

Muman, give me one reason why we shouldn't be taking those who may survive an Israeli airstrike and put them in ovens

The wicked will be destroyed, that much is certain.

If you know that all these are enemies then you must stop it any way, as I suggested initially to blow them out of the water.

I don't think we differ much, except I do feel that some involved may have been duped. But I will not argue that point any longer. Im sure you don't agree with me.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Ron,

My simple answer is that I want what you want, but I don't think that this is the time...

There are many problems coming Israels way... I do not like this news concerning Obama bringing up Israel in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty talks... There are many issues which need to be handled in a very careful manner. If Israel, and the Jewish people, do have the power, and I mean a strong Political system which will be able to sustain a prolonged attack against the civilian population, then indeed Israel should act in the best interest of Israel all the time.

What is important in my mind, concerning this flotilla, is that it be prevented from delivering its goods at all costs. I am 100% behind using any force to prevent this stuff from reaching gaza.

But the media will certainly have a field day with this...

בס''ד

This fear of world opinion is the essence of our problem. Either we believe in Hashem or we believe that human beings are more powerful than G-d.

The whole purpose of Israel's existence is to defy world opinion and defeat our enemies against all odds in order to prove that Hashem is the ruler of the world. That is why Israel exists.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

except I do feel that some involved may have been duped.

Muman, on this issue I couldn't disagree with you more. Who cares if anyone was duped? G-d gave every single one of us intellect and a free will. Nobody was forced to take Nazi stances. It was their own choice.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The JTF seems to be the only place with some common sense opinions over this incident. I'm glad to be here.

This is the kind of respect we shall get from Gentiles if we will stop being afraid of them like Muman suggested.

[muman613]

Ron,

My simple answer is that I want what you want, but I don't think that this is the time...

There are many problems coming Israels way... I do not like this news concerning Obama bringing up Israel in the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty talks... There are many issues which need to be handled in a very careful manner. If Israel, and the Jewish people, do have the power, and I mean a strong Political system which will be able to sustain a prolonged attack against the civilian population, then indeed Israel should act in the best interest of Israel all the time.

What is important in my mind, concerning this flotilla, is that it be prevented from delivering its goods at all costs. I am 100% behind using any force to prevent this stuff from reaching gaza.

But the media will certainly have a field day with this...

בס''ד

This fear of world opinion is the essence of our problem. Either we believe in Hashem or we believe that human beings are more powerful than G-d.

The whole purpose of Israel's existence is to defy world opinion and defeat our enemies against all odds in order to prove that Hashem is the ruler of the world. That is why Israel exists.

Chaim,

I so much agree with this... We must not worry about world opinion, we must do what is right in Hashems eyes, which is to stand up for the land...

We need to have a strong leader, a strong government in Israel, which can strengthen the military might of the Israeli army... I think all these things are essential in order for Israel to stand up for itself and accomplish what Hashem wants from us.

Look at the situation now. It is still very bad and needs someone stronger than Bibi... Unfortunately Bibi has cultivated an image as the right-winger in Israeli politics. I had to correct my uncle over brunch last week when he started to praise Bibi...

I will live to see the vision of a strong Israeli leader, bringing the exiles back to Eretz Yisroel.

Let us strike fear in the enemies of Hashem.

[muman613]

The JTF seems to be the only place with some common sense opinions over this incident. I'm glad to be here.

This is the kind of respect we shall get from Gentiles if we will stop being afraid of them like Muman suggested.

Ron,

I did not suggest being afraid of them either...

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

The JTF seems to be the only place with some common sense opinions over this incident. I'm glad to be here.

This is the kind of respect we shall get from Gentiles if we will stop being afraid of them like Muman suggested.

Ron,

I did not suggest being afraid of them either...

Then I find dishonesty in your posts throught the thread.

[muman613]

The JTF seems to be the only place with some common sense opinions over this incident. I'm glad to be here.

This is the kind of respect we shall get from Gentiles if we will stop being afraid of them like Muman suggested.

Ron,

I did not suggest being afraid of them either...

Then I find dishonesty in your posts throught the thread.

You are in one of those moods tonight, aren't you Ron?

Dishonesty, my arse... You are just being a schmuck..


I said

1) If there are any innocents on board I would be concerned about killing them along with the wicked...

2) That at this time Israel needs to be concerned with what the world thinks. I do not think that Israel is ready at this time {unless Hashem performs a miracle, which we are not supposed to rely on miracles} to fight like we did in the six day war.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

See why I say dishonesty

[muman613]

See why I say dishonesty

It is not afraid when you look at the situation realistically and realize that without a miracle we will not accomplish what we want.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

See why I say dishonesty

It is not afraid when you look at the situation realistically and realize that without a miracle we will not accomplish what we want.

Miracles happan every second.

If we thought the same way in the Liberation war, in the Six Days war, and in the Yom Kippur war, we would have been anything but alive.

Once we do what is needed to be done, and have our Trust and Hope in G-D, everything will be good and HaShem will help us.

What you call "realism" gave us only disasters, and this is not realism but Kitnut Emuna.

The Meshiach awaits us, and not the opposite.

[muman613]

If it is time, it is time... But I am tired of arguing with everyone about this...

Forgive me if you think I am being soft on evil, I do not see it like that at all. I will deal with evil as evil needs to be dealt with... But I also do not take pleasure in this battle... I only want to see what we all hope for, as the prophets wrote, the ingathering and the rise of Israels power in the world...

Is it time? You tell me?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

If it is time, it is time... But I am tired of arguing with everyone about this...

Forgive me if you think I am being soft on evil, I do not see it like that at all. I will deal with evil as evil needs to be dealt with... But I also do not take pleasure in this battle... I only want to see what we all hope for, as the prophets wrote, the ingathering and the rise of Israels power in the world...

Is it time? You tell me?

So you want the Moshiach do the job for us? You want us back in the Galut or something? cause by acting like you suggest, we will go back there really soon.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

If there are any innocents on board I would be concerned about killing them along with the wicked...

Muman, can you please explain to me how an innocent gets onboard a Nazi ship?

[muman613]

If it is time, it is time... But I am tired of arguing with everyone about this...

Forgive me if you think I am being soft on evil, I do not see it like that at all. I will deal with evil as evil needs to be dealt with... But I also do not take pleasure in this battle... I only want to see what we all hope for, as the prophets wrote, the ingathering and the rise of Israels power in the world...

Is it time? You tell me?

So you want the Moshiach do the job for us? You want us back in the Galut or something? cause by acting like you suggest, we will go back there really soon.

Do I want Moshiach to do it for us? Not unless he has to... I think Israel should become strong, with a strong government with the will to accomplish the goal... If there are governments like Olmert, or even Bibi, the will wont be there.

My will is that we do it. But as I said multiple times I am concerned that Israel is not really prepared for the big war at this time..

[Zelhar]

I am usually not so quick to pull the trigger as Chaim and Ron, but in this case I have to agree. Nobody on these ships who took the extreme step of actually participating in this unholy mission  can plea innocence or misguidance. It is pure and intentional malice. I would rather sink the ships than risk the lives of our soldiers.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/31/idf-forces-met-with-pre-planned-violence-when-attempting-to-board-flotilla-31-may-2010/

"IDF Forces Met with Pre-Planned Violence when Attempting to Board Flotilla,

31 May 2010

Early this morning, IDF Naval Forces boarded six ships attempting to break the maritime closure of the Gaza Strip. This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israeli Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid supplies which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.

During the boarding of the ships, the demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF Naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs. Additionally one of the weapons used was grabbed from an IDF soldier. The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose.

As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces employed riot dispersal means, including live fire.

According to initial reports, these events resulted in over ten deaths among the demonstrators and numerous injured, in addition, more than four naval personnel were injured, some from gunfire and some from various other weapons. Two of the soldiers are moderately wounded and the remainder sustained light injuries. All of the injured, Israelis and foreigners are currently being evacuated by helicopter to hospitals in Israel.

Reports from IDF forces on the scene are that it seems as if part of the participants onboard the ships were planning to lynch the forces.

The events are ongoing, and information will be updated as soon as possible. Israeli Naval commander, Vice Admiral Eliezer Marom is overseeing the events.

In the coming hours, the ships will be directed to the Ashdod port, while IDF naval forces will perform security checks in order to identify the people on board the ships and their equipment. The IDF Spokesman conveys that this event is currently unfolding and further details will be provided as soon as possible.

This IDF naval operation was carried out under orders from the political leadership to halt the flotilla from reaching the Gaza Strip and breaching the maritime closure.

The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip. In these warnings, it was made clear to the organizers that they could dock in the Ashdod sea port and unload the equipment they are carrying in order to deliver it to the Gaza Strip in an orderly manner, following the appropriate security checks. Upon expressing their unwillingness to cooperate and arrive at the port, it was decided to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod.

IDF naval personnel encountered severe violence, including use of weaponry prepared in advance in order to attack and to harm them. The forces operated in adherence with operational commands and took all necessary actions in order to avoid violence, but to no avail."