Italians and Jews: My two cents

[muman613]

And what exactly are you saying Chaim that I have said which you disagree with?  And what Tone? I have simply defended myself again and again from people who don't really understand the history of the Jewish people. There is nothing wrong with pointing this out. In this thread I started by saying that Italy has a long history of oppressing the Jew, I provided historical evidence that this is the case, and nobody contradicted what I said... I did not say that this is a reason to hate anyone... It was provided because there is reason to look to history to see the future...

I am interested in what you are talking about.

And Chaim, as much as I love you as a Jew, I find that your Lashon Hara against me is questionable...

Chaim, if you would like please write me in PM...

[Ben m]

Polite rapists.

  Oh, please.

I laughed at that one too.

me too.come on.let's ban those who preach hatred for each other religions.i personally don't have any problems to work with any jew as long as he is not neturi karta and with any gentile as long as he isn't black and muslim (unless he will prove he is righthouse (the blacks,muslims aren't righthouse by definition)).and come on if you think you are being accused for nothing say in public that do you think we need gentiles in the movement.

You're an opportunist.  You seize every disagreement and every discussion here to attack Ron and call for banning certain "undesirables" you wish weren't on the forum.     It's funny how you come in here and instigate thinking you know what's best for the movement when a few days ago you didn't even know that nazis shouldn't be "tolerated" here.

Why you do this is very transparent, but I'm not going to get into this nonsense with you here.  

and again,you are acussing me for no reason.i was one of the first to call for peace here.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Our religion teaches us that the nations will not be true friends in the end...

Muman, I'm no expert, but it sounds to me like what you refer to is speaking about the nations in general, as in, the various countries and powers of the world (ie, US, Britain, EU, russia, arab countries etc).  In that case, I don't think its sensible to extend that to include every single gentile.   Will every gentile agree with their nation's govt when the countries raise up their hands against Jerusalem (this is the prophecy you refer to right?) ?  There will be no disagreements or dissenting voices or domestic political opposition?  That sounds quite far-fetched and unlikely.  It seems to me this prophecy is already beginning to come true, all the nations including the Israeli regime is calling for division of Jerusalem and/or carrying it out to hand over the capital to our enemies, yet we see people on this very forum who disagree with Obama's evil plans, and many people do not want to see it happen.  I don't think its sensible to view this prophecy in this manner - as if every non Jewish person will suddenly unite in their ideology and adopt the most evil cause without exception.   This does not seem to me logical or consistent with how the world works and how we experience it.  

Even when people were swept up with nazi hysteria there were righteous gentiles who were diamonds in the rough that helped save Jews and harbor them.   I'm sure our members here would like to emulate and be like those righteous individuals when the "push comes to shove" regarding these prophecies.  So I see no reason why they should all be assumed under the same umbrella.  

What do you think?

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

And what exactly are you saying Chaim that I have said which you disagree with?  And what Tone? I have simply defended myself again and again from people who don't really understand the history of the Jewish people. There is nothing wrong with pointing this out. In this thread I started by saying that Italy has a long history of oppressing the Jew, I provided historical evidence that this is the case, and nobody contradicted what I said... I did not say that this is a reason to hate anyone... It was provided because there is reason to look to history to see the future...

I am interested in what you are talking about.

And Chaim, as much as I love you as a Jew, I find that your Lashon Hara against me is questionable...

בס''ד

Your tone has often created an atmosphere where our Gentile members feel uncomfortable. I love you as a fellow Jew but this has caused problems for our movement.

[muman613]

And what exactly are you saying Chaim that I have said which you disagree with?  And what Tone? I have simply defended myself again and again from people who don't really understand the history of the Jewish people. There is nothing wrong with pointing this out. In this thread I started by saying that Italy has a long history of oppressing the Jew, I provided historical evidence that this is the case, and nobody contradicted what I said... I did not say that this is a reason to hate anyone... It was provided because there is reason to look to history to see the future...

I am interested in what you are talking about.

And Chaim, as much as I love you as a Jew, I find that your Lashon Hara against me is questionable...

בס''ד

Your tone has often created an atmosphere where our Gentile members feel uncomfortable. I love you as a fellow Jew but this has caused problems for our movement.

Chaim,

I will say once again I have no intention to make any JTF member in good standing uncomfortable. A friend of Chaims is a friend of mine I am willing to say.

I will try to figure out why my tone is so upsetting to some... As I said before I seek to be like Aaron, a man of peace...

[christians4jews]

I do not hate any Christians... I have deep problems with the religion,

see, this is what i am on about. What terrible usage of words. Why not just say what chaim says, "im a jew, craig wins a christian". Thats all he says. He never did the videos with craig winn and say "i have deep problems with the religion, but lets crack on with the videos craig".

He is continually having digs at chistianity. Since this is a jewish forum, i feel he is abusing is power that we cannot argue back so he throws up these terribly worded phrases against christianity. If i am being honest i prefer Ron, at least you know where you stand with Ron. He doesnt like christianity, he makes that clear and i repsect that more. Wheras muman does this sly little digs, that when confronted about them will try and palm them off.

I notice hindu zionist was calling me a bigot, but be honest hindu zionist, if muman had said "i have no problems with hindus, but i have deep problems with their religion", that would isolate you. you should be greatful you dont get these pathetic little digs at your faith.

Another example is the jews for jesus fella dying. i thought the thread was done in very poor form, and again isolating for the christian gentiles imo. Using dancing men as celebrations etc. i can see that you dont want jews converting jews towards jesus, but they way you celebrated was very distateful and looks terrible for gentile onlookers, especially christians.

What is  the point of chaim doing great vids with christians such as pastor manning, and craig winn, when you have horrific posters such muman, Ron,Kahane is right slating christianity at any given oportunity.


And its not just gentiles, doctor brennan fan has been very damaging to the movment and often sucks up to those 3 named above. Take the two new coherant members one jew and one christian, germatria and that christian guy. The welcoming they got was terrible. Thank goodness chaim was there to back them up, but i wouldnt be surprised if both have been put off. Which is a disgrace as they were going to be very active posters.


IMO We ned some clarity, is this strictly a jewish movement, or a movement Where both jews and gentiles work in peace and harmony to save israel and western civilisation.

[muman613]

c4j,

Do not deny that there are basic theological differences between our faiths. I will not continue discussing it in the hope that we can move on...

Regarding J4J, the JTF position on this is clear, I believe Chaim will once again say that Missionaries are viewed as evil by the Jewish people. We have every right to celebrate the death of a murderer of Jewish souls. I believe Chaim himself posted that he was happy that that evil man died.

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,46061.0.html

Chaims Response :

http://jtf.org/forum_english/index.php/topic,46061.msg440573.html#msg440573

בס''ד

Baruch Hashem!

If he thought prostate cancer was rough, that is nothing compared to his current problems in the next world. He is in a very warm place, and he will be staying there forever.

And C4J, you are very good at causing divisions amongst Jews... Do you practice that?  It is just strange that you single out some of the three most religious and studied Jews of this forum..

[Spiraling Leopard]

Had everyone forgotten the Golden Rule?

Thank you,  arksis.
You are one of the best people I have EVER known.

Yes, Arksis is a very lovely lady.

[Dr. Dan]

well said, KahaneWasRight

I do not hate any Christians... I have deep problems with the religion, but I am willing to look aside from that, in the spirit of working for a common goal.

Our religion teaches us that the nations will not be true friends in the end... We should, the Jewish people, should never ever, ever rely on the nations to support them in their wars for the Holy Land. The fact that JTF is doing so is a questionable one, but one which I agree is required in order to get more support.

I disagree with the assertion that JTF is "relying on the gentiles" for support.  We are simply working together.  There is a big difference.   Chaim has many times explained the concept of relying on the nations and how wrong that is for the Jewish people.  That is a message JTF does not stray from.  So with that perspective in mind, there can still be cooperation and mutual help of the nations/gentiles toward common goals. 

Aside from that Muman, I know your heart is in the right place and I hope some of those upset with you will be willing to work toward more of a mutual understanding.  Furthermore, we both know that the sages urge us to be careful with our words.   That is much easier done in person than on a forum like this where typing away can feel like a free-for-all and sometimes a more anonymous venue, however, working on developing that sensitivity here as well can perhaps lead to greater understanding between people and less perceived insult or offense.  Words are very powerful here as well.  I think we should all keep that in mind.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

Chaim, I was not "defending" Mussolini, simply pointing out the historical record. I've studied the history of the Jews in Italy, esp. Fascist Italy, to a great degree, not only because of my family background but because I am a historian. I used him as an example to show that even the one Italian most people assume was the most antisemitic (because he aligned with Hitler) was not truly a Jew hater. His aligning with Germany was a major mistake for other reasons, too: there is a long history of dislike between Germans and Italians (its complicated), and many Italians lost respect for him when he did that.

As for why Italians don't seem to be as antisemitic as other Europeans (I think that was part of the original focus of the thread), I suspect it has a lot to do with (in Southern Italy, anyway) the fact that Italian men tend to be not only non-religious, but often, anti-religious (as in anti-clerical).

In Southern Italy, the priests and church hierarchy would often side with the landowners for whom most poor Italian men worked as laborers and farmers. This led southern Italian men to see the church as 'the enemy'. This is why usually the women are the churchgoers.

Anyway, I think the lack of desire to do what the church says kept many Italians from adopting church teachings that focused on Jews as well.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I do not hate any Christians... I have deep problems with the religion,

see, this is what i am on about.   

Here we go....  You never know when to stop do you.
Muman said nothing wrong here.  You are trying to stir the pot when Muman is trying to move on.  You are instigating, plain and simple.

What terrible usage of words. Why not just say what chaim says, "im a jew, craig wins a christian". Thats all he says. He never did the videos with craig winn and say "i have deep problems with the religion, but lets crack on with the videos craig".

He is continually having digs at chistianity. Since this is a jewish forum, i feel he is abusing is power that we cannot argue back so he throws up these terribly worded phrases against christianity.   

Awww, want to cry about it?             What do you mean "cannot argue back?"  Quit playing victim.  You are fully capable of pressing the "reply" button like anyone else, Jew or Gentile.

  at least you know where you stand with Ron.

  Earlier in the thread you called him bigoted and later in this same post you call him "horrific." 

You are such a dishonest animal.   You really make me sick.

I notice hindu zionist was calling me a bigot, but be honest hindu zionist, if muman had said "i have no problems with hindus, but i have deep problems with their religion", that would isolate you. you should be greatful you dont get these pathetic little digs at your faith.   

Hindu Zionist is under no illusions here.  Hinduism is unacceptable for a Jew, and from what I have seen, he doesn't have any interest in marketing Hinduism to Jews.   That said, Hindu zionist is fully capable of speaking for himself and doesn't need you putting words in his mouth.

Another example is the jews for jesus fella dying. i thought the thread was done in very poor form, and again isolating for the christian gentiles imo. Using dancing men as celebrations etc. i can see that you dont want jews converting jews towards jesus, but they way you celebrated was very distateful and looks terrible for gentile onlookers, especially christians. 

Once again you speak from a place of ignorance and despite having no idea what this movement is about or where we stand on the issues, you simply jump on an opportunity (or at least what you see as one in your warped mind) to attack the members here whom you don't like.  You didn't bother to read Chaim's comment about that thread, obviously.   He said quite emphatically how we should celebrate the death of this evil person and that JTF is an anti-missionary organization.  If you don't like that, too bad.  No one has to cater to your emotions because those are the non-negotiable principles, as they should be for every Jew.  Missionaries are evil deceptive liars.

What is  the point of chaim doing great vids with christians such as pastor manning, and craig winn, when you have horrific posters such muman, Ron,Kahane is right slating christianity at any given oportunity. 

Here you go again with the name-calling and flame wars.  This forum is not your personal diary nor your "rubber room" for you to smear your filth all over the place without repercussions.    If you have a problem with something I've said, QUOTE ME.   I challenge you.   Go ahead and quote anything I've said here.   I don't think any of the members here have a problem with me, except you.   You have not been worthy of the term "member" since the beginning, though.  You are merely putting on display a childish, immature, vengeful, divisive act and have come here to disrupt, not to debate.

So you won't quote me because intellectual cowards never do.

Take the two new coherant members

Irony.  You mean coherent. 

IMO We ned some clarity, is this strictly a jewish movement,

No one said it was, you insecure freak.   I've had about enough of this guy.  When will we decide enough is enough and it is time to enforce quality standards?   Your ice gets thinner by the minute buddy!

[JTFenthusiast2]

I should we should follow Chaim's lead here.  I and other people have said this before, this is coalition work, if we have nothing to say that is nice about someone's deeply felt religious ideas, we should say nothing.  Obviously this doesn't apply to things like missionizing, but this is approaching ever increasing levels of toxicity to the forum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I should we should follow Chaim's lead here.  I and other people have said this before, this is coalition work, if we have nothing to say that is nice about someone's deeply felt religious ideas, we should say nothing.  Obviously this doesn't apply to things like missionizing, but this approaching ever increasing levels of toxicity to this forum.

I believe I am following Chaim's lead here, and I think all the people in this thread can basically move on and work together with one exception, there's a fly in the soup.

[Lisa]

Muman wrote:

Our religion teaches us that the nations will not be true friends in the end... We should, the Jewish people, should never ever, ever rely on the nations to support them in their wars for the Holy Land. The fact that JTF is doing so is a questionable one, but one which I agree is required in order to get more support.

Relying on the nations is one thing.  That prophet Bilam said "Lo, this is a nation that shall dwell alone."  And that's true when we see countries like the US, turning against Israel.  But as I see it, there's a difference between "the nations" and individuals who post here and express their good will.  What's wrong with showing them some appreciation without rubbing our differences in their faces?  That, to me, doesn't sound like depending on nations for support.  Accepting foreign aid from America and other countries is "relying on other nations."  Not killing Arab terrorists for fear of what other countries will say is also "relying on the nations."  Accepting the first blow in wartime and casualties of your soldiers, so as not to offend the U.S. is also "relying on the nations." So if some INDIVIDUALS who are not Jewish want to post here and wish us well, what's the problem?  

Furthermore, Chaim's activities in the JDL were not the actions of a Jew relying on the nations.  Nor was all the time he spent in prison and on probation relying on other nations, or his founding of this movement.  So that whole argument does not fly with me.  

On another note, if someone here were to say "I don't hate Jews...I have deep problems with the religion, I think the Jewish members would be pretty offended.  It's certainly a dig.  Now with that being said, I'm not trying to sugarcoat the bad things done by Christians in the past in the name of Christianity.  I think everyone here will agree that what was done in the past to Jews was very bad.

So getting back to what Dr. Dan wrote earlier, there are good and bad people in every nation.  For those of you who would prefer that we didn't work with Christians and other non-Jews, at least try and be polite, and accept the fact that you won't agree with everyone here about everything.  The forum would be a much better, happier place as a result.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Muman wrote:

Our religion teaches us that the nations will not be true friends in the end... We should, the Jewish people, should never ever, ever rely on the nations to support them in their wars for the Holy Land. The fact that JTF is doing so is a questionable one, but one which I agree is required in order to get more support.

Relying on the nations is one thing.  That prophet Bilam said "Lo, this is a nation that shall dwell alone."  And that's true when we see countries like the US, turning against Israel.  But as I see it, there's a difference between "the nations" and individuals who post here and express their good will.  What's wrong with showing them some appreciation without rubbing our differences in their faces?  That, to me, doesn't sound like depending on nations for support.  Accepting foreign aid from America and other countries is "relying on other nations."  Not killing Arab terrorists for fear of what other countries will say is also "relying on the nations."  Accepting the first blow in wartime and casualties of your soldiers, so as not to offend the U.S. is also "relying on the nations." So if some INDIVIDUALS who are not Jewish want to post here and wish us well, what's the problem?  

Furthermore, Chaim's activities in the JDL were not the actions of a Jew relying on the nations.  Nor was all the time he spent in prison and on probation relying on other nations, or his founding of this movement.  So that whole argument does not fly with me.  

On another note, if someone here were to say "I don't hate Jews...I have deep problems with the religion, I think the Jewish members would be pretty offended.  It's certainly a dig.  Now with that being said, I'm not trying to sugarcoat the bad things done by Christians in the past in the name of Christianity.  I think everyone here will agree that what was done in the past to Jews was very bad.

So getting back to what Dr. Dan wrote earlier, there are good and bad people in every nation.  For those of you who would prefer that we didn't work with Christians and other non-Jews, at least try and be polite, and accept the fact that you won't agree with everyone here about everything.  The forum would be a much better, happier place as a result.

בס''ד

Lisa, you just summed up our position far better than I could.

Not relying on the nations does not mean not working with חסידי אומות העולם (the righteous among the nations). We are obligated to work with the righteous Gentiles. That is what "a light unto the nations" means. What we are forbidden to do is create alliances with evil foreign governments and then rely upon them for our survival instead of relying upon G-d. And yes, even the U.S. government under Barack Hussein Osama is evil.

[JewishAmericanPatriot]

I just think it is very important not to offend any Christian friends we have here. I have seen probably well-meaning Jews insult Christian allies to their face by calling their deity and religion horrible names, and to be honest, I don't know why the Christians just take it. I know I wouldn't.

I think too often, we as a people make enemies where we previously did not have them, because we just can't accept that some Gentiles do mean well (for so many centuries all they wanted was to kill us or convert us, so its hard to think that any can be decent.)

But my parents (obm) taught me to always respect other people and their religion, even if we don't agree with it. My father would remind me how I felt when those Irish Catholic girls beat me up and called me 'christ killer'; he said that should make me realize that if I don't want it done to me, I should be careful not to do that to someone else.

I have always tried to be respectful to others in my life, and when I do, I find Christians treat me very well. As my mom used to say, You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Regarding J4J, the JTF position on this is clear, I believe Chaim will once again say that Missionaries are viewed as evil by the Jewish people. We have every right to celebrate the death of a murderer of Jewish souls. I believe Chaim himself posted that he was happy that that evil man died.

What does J4J have to do with the Christians on JTF?

[muman613]

Regarding J4J, the JTF position on this is clear, I believe Chaim will once again say that Missionaries are viewed as evil by the Jewish people. We have every right to celebrate the death of a murderer of Jewish souls. I believe Chaim himself posted that he was happy that that evil man died.

What does J4J have to do with the Christians on JTF?

Hopefully nothing... But C4J said he was offended by the fact that we rejoiced in the death of the wicked leader of J4J... I simply pointed out that this kind of thing, missionizing, is a serious issue to Jews and to the Jewish people...

Another example is the jews for jesus fella dying. i thought the thread was done in very poor form, and again isolating for the christian gentiles imo. Using dancing men as celebrations etc. i can see that you dont want jews converting jews towards jesus, but they way you celebrated was very distateful and looks terrible for gentile onlookers, especially christians.

[Dr. Dan]

You're right...But you know what?  It's not wise to be up in everyone's face especially in person unless it's a confrontation or they were to start it first.

I think that if someone had the stomach to have an honest discussion about theology, then everything would be fine.  Best if we wanted to have discussions about religion and theology and disagree about it, to approach it politely with our friends and not head butt each other.

I just think it is very important not to offend any Christian friends we have here. I have seen probably well-meaning Jews insult Christian allies to their face by calling their deity and religion horrible names, and to be honest, I don't know why the Christians just take it. I know I wouldn't.

I think too often, we as a people make enemies where we previously did not have them, because we just can't accept that some Gentiles do mean well (for so many centuries all they wanted was to kill us or convert us, so its hard to think that any can be decent.)

But my parents (obm) taught me to always respect other people and their religion, even if we don't agree with it. My father would remind me how I felt when those Irish Catholic girls beat me up and called me 'christ killer'; he said that should make me realize that if I don't want it done to me, I should be careful not to do that to someone else.

I have always tried to be respectful to others in my life, and when I do, I find Christians treat me very well. As my mom used to say, You get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. 

[JTFenthusiast2]

CAN We all agree to politely disagree and say:


THE END

[Rubystars]

I hope this is the end of it. This thread has actually made me feel very sad.

I'm very happy to know that individuals who disagree with the JTF position are only speaking for themselves. Thank you Chaim, Lisa, Dr. Dan, Kahane was Right, and other level-headed folks for contributing good posts to this thread.

[✡ Hindu Zionist ॐ]

I do not hate any Christians... I have deep problems with the religion,

I notice hindu zionist was calling me a bigot, but be honest hindu zionist, if muman had said "i have no problems with hindus, but i have deep problems with their religion", that would isolate you. you should be greatful you dont get these pathetic little digs at your faith.

when i had joined JTF, some christian members did take a dig at me, I was called a Nazi, Shwazi, browny, dot head, barbaric tribal pagan Hindu, who were made to be civilized by Colonial British... by AmericanHero and one more member from here, whose name i dont wish to take, since things have settled down and I have chosen to move on. My purpose on JTF is not for argumentative purpose. We are all Gentiles here on this forum, and if we claim to be righteous Gentile, then first care should be taken that no disrespect be shown to views of Jewish members. I welcome their views even if it is Ben. But you are still running in a loop, showing distrust with jewish members, which i find totally disappointing.

and conclude.

[syyuge]

Right! Hindus do not have any wheel to grind against anybody except for the muslamics and arabs. If they leave the world, Hindus will leave the wheel.

Thanx & concluded.

[Ben m]

khahane was right bt.stop attacking christia4jews.he is one of our greatest memeber.if you had something usefull to say so say it.nobobdy here want to hear your smearings.

[Ben m]

I should we should follow Chaim's lead here.  I and other people have said this before, this is coalition work, if we have nothing to say that is nice about someone's deeply felt religious ideas, we should say nothing.  Obviously this doesn't apply to things like missionizing, but this approaching ever increasing levels of toxicity to this forum.

I believe I am following Chaim's lead here, and I think all the people in this thread can basically move on and work together with one exception, there's a fly in the soup.

sorry? this is the worst divissvness i ever saw.yes there is a fly here and it is you.