« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2010, 05:01:52 PM »
-Any significance to the fact that David's ancestor Ruth was a Moabite convert and not originally from the Twelve Tribes of Israel?
Significance in what way do you mean?
Re: "...the Talmud states that it will be before the Hebrew year 6000. (The Hebrew year at the date of this publication is 5763.)"
From what basis does Talmud arrive at this scheduled time period?
And...if Hebrew year 6000 passes with no Moshiach, would Talmud be then relegated to the classification of 'interesting reading, but mere speculation ' in terms of the many conclusions offered in its arguments based on Talmudic logic?
Absolutely not.
First off, I do not agree with the Chabad website's assertion here that the Talmud is predicting the date of arrival for moshiach. Far from it. That source is a midrashic statement in Sanhedrin describing the history of mankind, and the third of 3 periods described there is the Messianic Era (which we're already in for a long time according to that "calculation" if it was one). It is not an exact dating or calculation, nor do we make such predictions. The Rambam says explicitly that it is forbidden to speculate about the date of the moshiach's arrival. In my opinion, this is just another example of Judaism being "dumbed down" for the masses by taking a complex and deeply meaningful piece of aggadata and boiling it down to a simple one-liner "statement of fact" which was never intended by its authors and which ultimately erases the entire point of the recording of this midrash. The authors, chazal, understood that the wisest of men would comprehend the deep meanings, but in the "marketing" of Judaism, often those who are supposed to understand deep concepts (and teach them) actually gift-wrap them in simplistic ways and proliferate misunderstanding among the masses.
The Talmud is the authentic tradition of authority/interpretation and practice of religious Judaism as handed down from Moshe to the Elders and Joshua to the Prophets to the Men of the Great Assembly and finally to the compilers and redactors of the Talmud which elaborated on this tradition, ordered it and lastly put it in writing - these latter men are known as Chazal - ie the sages of blessed memory. There is no question to its relevance and authority as the underpinnings of Judaism's continuation from the seminal event at Mt. Sinai. There is no "proof test" for the Talmud, nor is it a monolithic text. It represents the Jewish experts' discussion of national, communal, and individual religious issues in light of G-d's Torah which the Jews were given on Sinai and its commandments contained therein, along with the precedent of prior rulings of the chachamim and scholars of the past (including previous Sanhedrins which established unified custom and rulings in many areas), which were transmitted and passed on to the Talmudic sages.
So the question of "what if in 6000 years... etc" does not even begin.
- The Shabtai Tzvi incident resulted in a historical fiasco ...
Considering the permanent damage inflicted on our people which has resulted from otherwise sane and normal Jews becoming convinced that one of their spiritual leaders was the heralded Moshiach, isn't there great danger in Jews constantly looking for the "signs" of proof in their leaders? Just recently we witnessed the Lubavitcher Movement ascribing Moshiach status to their deceased Rebbe -- so much so that a schism resulted splitting the movement between those still believing him to be Moshiach vs those who do not.
Rambam says explicitly the Messiah will not do miracles. So I don't understand why people look for signs and wonders from leaders.
The "proof" of being the Messiah is only after-the-fact. Once a third temple is built, the wars against our enemies have been fought, and the king who did these things will also be loyal to Torah and encouraging its observance nationally. Once we see that these things have occurred, we can naturally say, King ____ is the messiah. At that point, what changes? He gets a special annointing ceremony (he's already been annointed king/nasi prior to these things)? There is no inherent "danger" in these ideas. Ultimately, it is Messianic Era which is far more important and the real definition according to Rambam, than a particular person who does particular things.
The Messianic Era is characterized by man's great liberation from political persecution, which is utilized to create an ethical society, and from the foundation of that ethical society, man is free to devote himself to spiritual pursuit - man's ultimate activity. That is what "messiah" or messianic times is all about. As you can see, this notion divorced from its national, ethical component is indeed a magic-thinking/mystical-based heresy influenced by concepts of other foreign religions.
I read Rambam's speculations on Moschiah last month or so. Good assessment.
I wish I could remember what website I read the Rambam on because I didn't get a chance to read Nachmanides counter points; have you seen an online examination of his?
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