Author Topic: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel  (Read 3688 times)

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Offline nessuno

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2010, 04:37:11 PM »
old people are naive. No offense you folks over 70, obviously you are an exception since you are members.
What?   :o  Old people are naive?  Make sure they don't find out you think so.  They can be mean too!   :::D :::D

Besides me, who is over 70 here?    :suave:

Most over 70s I know have great wisdom.  I might not agree with them 100% of the time, but I wouldn't consider them naive.


Some of the Grumpiest Old Men

LOL :::D
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Offline nessuno

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2010, 04:40:53 PM »
Quote from: MassuhDGoodName link=top
That's because they were expecting to see [i
Driving Miss Daisy[/i], but instead ended up with H. Rap Brown looking at them !

 :::D
Anyone in their right mind would be afraid of an angry looking black.  ???
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline nessuno

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #27 on: June 25, 2010, 04:47:44 PM »
The trouble with elderly Americans?

Those over 70?

They vote Republican because they have bought into the welfare state mentality and look to the government for things like George W. Bush's Prescription Drug Program for the elderly, No Child Left Behind, Affirmative Action programs, etc.

They vote Republican because they have bought into Ronald Reagans' evil "Borrow and Spend" fast lane to national bankruptcy plan, his "Trickle Down Economics Theory" which even his own Vice President George H. W. Bush described publicly as "Voodoo Economics", and they fell for the B.S. that Reagan defeated Communism, when in fact Communism has defeated America at present.

That's the trouble with all the Americans over 70.

Of course, those who still worship the GOP can always listen to Rush Limbaugh for the truth.


Most elderly Americans worked hard and contributed to the system.
It's not like they sat on their 'fracas' and waited for a handout.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline The One and Only Mo

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #28 on: June 25, 2010, 05:38:37 PM »
 :::D

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2010, 12:30:45 AM »
I think it has a great deal to do on where people stand politically. Liberals would not be receptive to the Ravs message. I always liked listening to the Rav when he was on the local talk shows. I was always surprised how liberal Jews really felt the Rav and his movement was causing problems for them. If they would have listened to him closer things would be far better today in Israel and also here in the States. The Ravs message will only look good to Liberal Jews in times of extreme emergency. Only then will they understand why he held the positions he did.

That is the pot calling the soap black.
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

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 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2010, 05:25:22 AM »
Do we have members over 70 here?

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2010, 07:06:07 AM »
Sadly i've met many Jews that are the same way. People can hate what Kahane had to say, but what he said was the truth. Everything he predicted is happening today.


There's no question that Rabbi Kahane envisioned things decades before practically everyone else did.    It's not surprising that many opposed Rabbi Kahane wanted him out of the way.       Thankfully,   because of Chaim,    JTF emerged and the messages of Rabbi Kahane live on. 

Unfortunately from a percentage wise standpoint,   MANY Jews and some righteous Gentiles are in denial about what Barack Hussein Obama is attempting to accomplish,    which includes another holocaust.      Last night,   I got into a debate with someone who takes Offense that Thomas Sowell and Sarah Palin link BHO to Nazism.      I used BHO's horrific treatment of Israel and him supporting and/ or appeasing some of Israel's enemies   (   which are in reality also the United States'  enemies )   as an illustration why I believe BHO is a Nazi.
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2010, 07:17:15 AM »
Unfortunately, israelis have been brainwashed the Kahane was a terrible nazi-like extremist as if he were ahamdinejad, Gd forbid.

You can mention kahanist ideals and their eyes will open and they'll agree to it and buy it, but when you say "Kahane" they'll get turned off. Its a terrible shame.

On my first date with my wife, who is Israeli, I said I was a Kahanist and she freaked. She later told me why. It was because she thought I was into bombing and hurting "innocent muslims" personally.

Too bad my wife grew up in Israel in the 90's during the Rabin era. I'm sure you can imagine the brainwashing she gotten and joing "seeds of apPeacement".

The second intafada made her realize that arabs couldn't be trusted. But still Kahane was a bad word.

Then I got her into askJTF and she's slowly turning the page. She still thinks we are a little extreme, but after a little things happen, she becomes a little right wing and agrees more with "Kahane's" Torah.

She also acknowledges that today Kahane would be right. Yesterday he was too extreme.

Except today could be too late and yesterday he was ahead of his time. We should have listened. And unfortunately this generation and the generation before us will be as the slaves of Egypt who will not see Israel the way it was meant to be. The generation younger than me (33 yrs old) who never knew Kahane will be the new leadership.


Dr. Dan,   thanks as always for your excellent insight.      I'm real glad to see the substantial progress you made in helping your wife understand much better that the positions of Rabbi Kahane and JTF are sound and sensible.        Considering that she was brought up in a left wing environment that the Israeli Government/  Media/  Establishment created,    she's made tremendous progress.    Both of you can be proud!      I hope the day comes soon that she joins the JTF Forum.     


Fortunately for me,    my father was VERY politically conservative.       Like I mentioned on the MB a number of times,    the politicians in the U.S. he admired the most were Barry Goldwater,    Ronald Reagan,   and Jesse Helms.      When I heard Rabbi Kahane on Nightline and other programs in the 1980's,    I knew right away that this was a man of wisdom.      Those who debated Rabbi Kahane came across as leftist fools and/  or extremely naive.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2010, 07:24:03 AM »
Welcome back eb22! Can't wait to hear all about your trip and your thoughts.
G-d bless you for trying with that woman, if not for you, she would just keep on thinking the same thoughts she always has. I bet you she is VERY curious about JTF and will come back and read what is written here and change her mind. You started it and that's all that was neccessary! I hope and pray that sometime next month, she introduces herself and tells us the story of a guy on a plane coming home from Israel!  ;D


Thanks,  arksis!       After what I saw during the trip,    I felt more than even before that it's an obligation on my part to publicize JTF.   That much more so to someone who was reaching out for help for Israel  (  the same would have applied regarding the United States or any country where there's righteous people  ).   

I certainly hope that the woman I met on the plane decides to check out JTF.     Unfortunately,   it might take a tragedy for something to trigger her memory to our conversation.     The good news is I gave her a piece of paper with JTF.ORG written on it.      Hopefully,  she kept it.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2010, 07:30:14 AM »
Great story, eb22 and thank you for sharing.   Very interesting encounter.    It is great that you tried to promote JTF in that situation, whether it worked or not, I'm sure you got that person thinking.   I think they will probably be at the site at some point in either curiosity or frustration or both.


My pleasure,   Kahane-Was-Right BT.


This was an opportunity that might have been created by G-d.      Even if the woman doesn't check out the website on her own,    her husband,   who was sitting a seat away from her  (  there was an empty seat between them),    might be tempted to check out JTF if she mentions our conversation to him.       It's imperative that JTF gets publicity.     Even when people who are adverse to JTF start talking about the organization,    it's very positive for us.      The worst thing for JTF is the lack of publicity.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2010, 07:39:12 AM »
Great discussion.  You know how everyone over 50 years old remembers where they were when they heard JFK had been assassinated?  I remember where I was when I heard about Kahane.  I had woken up with the morning news and heard the report.  I was saddened to hear it but not devestated.  I had just gotten married, we were planning to have a child, I was working a tough and contentious job and my mother was fighting a losing battle with cancer.  Grief for Kahane just got crowded out by all the other things.

I had seen Kahane debate live in San Francisco with Pete McCloskey an anti Israel Republican.  In fact my wife on hearing the news said, "isn't that the guy we watched debate".  I actually did not like Kahane debating anti-Semites.  It often ended up on freak shows like Mort Downey Jr.  In fact I saw him debate Dr. Mehdi there and found it nauseating (he referred to Mehdi as his "friend").  Like Chaim did I know of someone who risked his freedom and safety confronting Mehdi at Kahane's direction.  I know this person because I see him in the mirror every morning when I brush my teeth.

I was not against Kahane in any sense but I was no longer an avid follower.  I thought his time had passed and that he was engaging in these stunts to keep his name in the news. 

Well there is no doubt that we could desperately use Kahane today.  Authentic Jewish leadership of a charismataic leader is needed like water is needed by thirsty men lost in a parched desert.


What you mentioned in the last sentence is part of the reason why it's essential that Chaim is able to live in Israel.       Even the people who disagree with Chaim realize if they are being honest internally that Chaim is a dynamic presence.   

The bottom line is Israel needs a leader who can capture people from many segments of life.     The message that Chaim projects goes well beyond a certain component of the religious segment of the Israeli population.    It projects to those who are fed up with Israel appeasing their enemies and the socialism that has a grip on the country.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #36 on: June 27, 2010, 07:57:39 AM »

I'm of the opinion that, deep down,  this woman knows that Rabbi Kahane was right.   But for one or more reasons,   she won't associate herself with Rabbi Kahane.      This is a tragic situation.   I'm convinced that there are many more people like this woman.     

I agree.
The Israeli establishment has relentlessly demonized Kahane. But there is a deeper reason for Kahane's rejection. During the nineties, the Israelis got weary of fighting all the time. As a result, they fooled themselves into believing that there could be peace with the Arabs and that the Arabs could be trusted. They were so weary so that they were ready to give away their land and return to indefensible borders, in the vain hope that this would appease the Arabs and that the Arabs would become reasonable. Meir Kahane tried to warn them that this was a grave illusion, that such a suicidal policy would only incite the Arabs to lust for more, that it would be perceived by the Arabs as weakness and vacillation. Meir Kahane, of course, was right. But most of the Israelis preferred to cling to their illusions and they resented Kahane for telling the truth.
Also, a lot of Israelis simply could not get Kahane's message, because of the censorship in Israel, because of all the lies and fabrications about him in the mainstream media, because of the power of the leftists in Israel who rushed to ban Kahane because they were so scared to lose their power.
Now, after all the disillusions that followed the Oslo Accords, the Israelis are more inclined to embrace Kahane's ideas. However, the majority of the Israeli society is still very "liberal" and biased against Kahanist ideas. That is why I strongly believe that it is a big mistake for JTF to associate itself with individuals or groups that can give the impression that JTF is somehow racist or hateful or that it promotes violence.
Whether you like it or not, the Israeli society is vastly liberal and westernized. If you really have the survival of the Jewish state at heart, you have to know how to talk to these people who do not think and feel like biblical Jews. You must not scare them away by letting them believe what the left wants them to believe - that Kahanists are racists, fascists, Jewish terrorists, and all other sorts of nonsense.



Good post,   yaakov mendel!


In addition to what you mentioned,    I think one of the major problems in convincing people that Israel needs a "  real right"  wing government is that most Israelis probably don't know what the religion of Islam is truly about.       The leftist media in Israel ,   which is the vast majority of the media in the country,   certainly isn't going to expose the truth about Islam.   


On a positive note,    I'm encouraged with what Chaim has mentioned in that the % of Israelis who have turned away from the Left,  has grown considerably.     The problem though is most of them have not been exposed to JTF's message and if they were exposed to JTF message,   its only been once or twice.    That's not enough.     The message of JTF must be reinforced to these people,   who have been brainwashed by the left for their entire lives.     Basically,   these people are realizing that something is truly wrong with the current system of the major political parties in Israel.     But they don't know of a viable alternative.     And in some cases,   they hear about the JTF or a related Kahanist alternative.    But they are uncomfortable to be associated with the Kahanism for one or more reasons.    Some that were touched on by a number of people in this thread.


The bottom line is that all of us have to continue to make a difference in JTF growing.     The future of Israel,   the United States,    and the world could easily depend upon it.   

"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #37 on: June 27, 2010, 08:06:46 AM »
This touches on the very problem I have whenever I bring up Kahanism and Rabbi Kahane with my friends and my minyan. The overwhelming image of us is that we are radical, bigoted, racist, and violent...

In all my 3 years knowing JTF I have not seen this behavior. Sure there are times we get upset, and there are so many reasons to get upset today... But for the most part we are out for the best for the Jewish people and Eretz Yisroel. I believe that over time those who are undecided will eventually come to see things with the crystal clarity which Rabbi Kahane and his vision of how the Jews should handle the enemies who are actively trying to destroy us today.




muman613,     very good points.


What you mentioned reminds me to a large extent what the Tea Party Movement is going through in the United States.      The media in Israel and the U.S.  is mainly controlled by the left.    It's even more pronounced in Israel.      Real Right Wing movements get smeared by the media and the establishment which controls the media,   and the overall left.     
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline eb22

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #38 on: June 27, 2010, 08:15:11 AM »
old people are naive. No offense you folks over 70, obviously you are an exception since you are members.
What?   :o  Old people are naive?  Make sure they don't find out you think so.  They can be mean too!   :::D :::D

Besides me, who is over 70 here?    :suave:

Most over 70s I know have great wisdom.  I might not agree with them 100% of the time, but I wouldn't consider them naive.

I meant that they are mostly more liberal and left-wing. They don't believe in force. And for what it's worth, they always seem to vote democrat.


For whatever reason( s),   it seems like not many people in their 60's or older have joined JTF when reaching that age. 

One question that I meant to ask Chaim on an " Ask JTF"  program but something else has always peaked my curiosity,    is why the Hebrew Forum especially hasn't been able to attract the parents,   aunts,  or uncles of some of the members.       I recall Chaim mentioned that other than him,   the oldest person in the Hebrew Forum is in his early 40's and he's a rare exception. 

While I'm encouraged that many young people are joining the Hebrew Forum,    JTF/  Hayamin. Org.  desperately needs more funds.     The parents,  uncles,  and aunts of these members would be a terrific source of funds for the organization they can be convinced of JTF's message.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

.....................................................................

http://jtf.org/

Offline arksis

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #39 on: June 27, 2010, 09:07:57 AM »
The trouble with elderly Americans?

Those over 70?

They vote Republican because they have bought into the welfare state mentality and look to the government for things like George W. Bush's Prescription Drug Program for the elderly, No Child Left Behind, Affirmative Action programs, etc.

They vote Republican because they have bought into Ronald Reagans' evil "Borrow and Spend" fast lane to national bankruptcy plan, his "Trickle Down Economics Theory" which even his own Vice President George H. W. Bush described publicly as "Voodoo Economics", and they fell for the B.S. that Reagan defeated Communism, when in fact Communism has defeated America at present.

That's the trouble with all the Americans over 70.

Of course, those who still worship the GOP can always listen to Rush Limbaugh for the truth.


Well when one party is evil and the other is down right evil where is the solution.... The sad fact is that the Democrats once touted as the working mans party have become the party of the disenfranchised.... (Something we soon will all be). It really is an impossible situation.

This is where I get in so many arguments with people that have voted Democrat. They ALWAYS say, "Democrats are for the working man and Republicans are for the rich people" and I have to tell them, yes, that was true well over 30 years ago or so, but not anymore. BOTH sides are dishonest, but voting Dem is alot worse and there are various reasons I won't go into for this.
---Never, ever deal with terrorists. Hunt them down and, more important, mercilessly punish those states and groups that fund, arm, support, or simply allow their territories to be used by the terrorists with impunity.
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Offline arksis

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Re: An Example of the Obstacles for JTF in Israel
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2010, 09:14:50 AM »

[/quote]
Most elderly Americans worked hard and contributed to the system.
It's not like they sat on their 'fracas' and waited for a handout.

[/quote]

I could not agree more with Bullcat on this one. Most of my friends are seniors and they worked VERY hard for a living. Back then, people were ASHAMED to go on welfare or even get food stamps and worked 3 or more jobs just so they wouldn't have to rely on the government for help. Nowadays, it's as if it's a "given" that you are getting aid from the government. I honestly can't believe how much things have changed.  >:(
---Never, ever deal with terrorists. Hunt them down and, more important, mercilessly punish those states and groups that fund, arm, support, or simply allow their territories to be used by the terrorists with impunity.
Meir Kahane