Author Topic: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis  (Read 3728 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« on: August 20, 2010, 02:36:59 PM »
An interesting take by Vienna Mike at the virtual Judah blog.   What are your thoughts and comments on this?   Also wonder what Chaim thinks.   The post by vienna mike follows below...

http://virtualjudah.wordpress.com/2010/08/20/a-cautionary-tale-for-shabbat/

A Cautionary Tale for Shabbat
By Vienna Mike

The other day, Tzsvi Fishman published on his blog a giant pro-aliyah rant in which he first accuses everyone who does not immediately drop everything and make aliyah immediately of cowardice, and then proceeds to demolish his own case by claiming that waving orange ribbons and hiding from the cops at Homesh constitutes the Pinchas-like struggle to overthrow the illegitimate erev rav regime called for by The Holy Martyr Rebbe Meir Kahane (z”l) toward the end of his career.  In support of this, he extensively quotes “Or haRayon”, a book compiled from R. Kahane’s unpublished writings and ghost-published after his death by his close associates in an effort to present their idea of the Martyr Rebbe’s ideology.  Moreover, most of the particular passages Fishman quotes were written in the early 5700s and were tied to R. Kahane’s belief that redemption “at once” could be brought by revolution before the expiration of the forty-year “divine credit” of miracles that led to the creation and temporary strengthening of the State of Israel despite the wickedness of its rulers.  A few of the latter passages were written just before R. Kahane’s turn toward Medinat Yehudah as the solution to the problem still facing us today.  Obviously, the forty-year limit is long past.  Its end was marked by the beginning of the Oslo Process, signaling a definitive commitment to redemption “in its time” or else the destruction of Israel and a reset in the process of redemption back to square one.   At the end of his life, R. Kahane himself was committed to Medinat Yehudah, so much so that his last speech was given before the provisional banner of Medinat Yehudah.

At any rate, this is not very important.  What IS important is to ignore the kind of ranting Fishman indulges in on almost a daily basis.  Those who take Fishman and others like him seriously do a disservice to themselves, and more importantly, waste a valuable, scarce set of resources that will be needed in good time, namely their lives, health and money.  To explain why, I will resort to the ancient rabbinical method, and tell you a tale to think about over Shabbat.  So here is how it goes:

Not long ago, in a place not very far away, Flatbush to be precise, there lived a young man named Ephraim Khantsis.  He was not unintelligent and quite brave in the fashion of young men who think themselves immortal.  Young Ephraim had been born in the Ukraine, but his family had emigrated to America when he was quite young and so he had never known what it is like to live in a totalitarian society.  All his life he had spent in America and was thus used to the inviolate nature of basic freedoms and human rights enshrined in the American constitution.  So used was he to these freedoms, that he could not even imagine a society in which they would not exist, a society in which there was no freedom of speech, nor free elections, nor a free press, nor a right to keep and bear arms.  He knew that such societies could exist, intellectually, but he could not even imagine how they function.

In due course, young Ephraim grew up and understood that a Jew had no place living under goyshe rule.  Naturally, he became a Kahanist, as is the fashion of all decent Jewish young men aged between sixteen and thirty or so.  Indeed it is fair to say that if a young Jewish man is not a Kahanist by twenty, he has no Jewish heart.  Of course, if he is still a Kahanist by thirty, he has other problems.  But young Ephraim was still too young to know this.

As a young Kahanist, Ephraim did all the usual Kahanist things.  He read Kahane books, he hung out at Kahanist websites, he communicated with Kahanist activists.  In due course, he became committed to making aliyah and helping to build a Torah State in Eretz Yisrael.  Of course, he had little idea how to do this, but he assumed that if he just got to Israel and went to Yosh, he would find others who would help him and guide him, and all would be well.

As soon as he graduated from SUNY Stony Brook with his degree in Computer Science, young Ephraim got on a plane to Ben Gurion airport.  When he got off the plane in Lod, he enrolled in Machon Meir and made his way to Kfar Tapuach, hoping to lend a hand to the building of a Torah State.  There, he linked up with all the usual suspects.  Yekutiel Guzovsky, David HaIvri, Baruch Marzel, all the tired old men who represent the sad spectacle that is modern-day Kahanism in Israel.

But, you see, no one, not the Kahanist websites, not the Kahanist “leaders” and certainly not blogs like Fishman’s, educated young Ephraim on the reality of the situation in Eretz Yisrael.  All his life, he had lived in a democracy.  All his life he had been used to human rights, such as freedom of speech, being inviolate.  All his life he had been used to the idea that if enough people just get together and demand stuff, the powers that be will seek to accommodate them for fear of losing their votes.  He thought that Israel was a democracy, too.  Everyone had told him this.  Why would he think differently?

No one told young Ephraim that Israel is a totalitarian police state about as free and democratic as Brezhnev’s USSR.  No one told him that in Israel there is no freedom of speech, human rights are protected only for those who have the right protektsia, elections are rigged in advance, all electronic communications are monitored by the secret police and the average citizen cannot take a step into the bushes to relieve himself without a Shabak snitch running to tell the powers that be all about it.  No one told him that the people he hung out with live under a microscope.  No one told him that the very act of saying hello to them lands one on a secret police watchlist.  No one told him that they are surrounded by snitches on all sides and that some of them are forced to snitch on their own comrades for fear of their own lives and the lives of those whom they love.  No one told him that the vast majority of Jews in Eretz Yisrael worship the State of Israel as an idol no different in nature from the Golden Calf, but far more dangerous in substance.  No one told him that the people who should be busy trying to change this sad state of affairs by advocating Jewish independence and Jewish self-sufficiency are instead busy running internet cafes, or writing blogs to urge ignorant young men like Ephraim to make aliyah, or taking nature hikes, or trying to increase their number of Knesset seats from two to three.

The moment young Ephraim opened his mouth and started telling others what he believed, a snitch in Tapuach ran to tell the Shabak.  The mamlachti whores whom he mistook for rabbis at Machon Meir demanded that he change his views or else.  The Shabak made threats and ordered him to stay out of Yosh.  But young Ephraim lacked the basic knowledge to understand what it all meant.  He proudly stood his ground.  He refused to change his views because his views were right.  He refused to recant his statements because he had spoken the truth and, in the democratic society he was used to living in, no one is punished for merely speaking his mind.  He refused to stay out of Yosh because, in a democratic society, the police cannot simply ban a man from half the country on a whim, so he could not comprehend how such an “order” could even exist, much less be legally enforced.

And no one, not the tired old men he was hanging around with, not his Tapuach peers, not his classmates at Machon Meir, NO ONE took the trouble to educate young Ephraim as to the kind of society he was really living in.  First of all, they did not know him and therefore did not care about him.  Second, there was the language barrier.  But third and most important of all, in order to tell Ephraim the Truth, they first have to admit the Truth to themselves.  And they cannot do it, because the Truth imposes upon them obligations they are simply unwilling to fulfill.

And so Ephraim was simply arrested by the Shabak and thrown into Eshel prison without charge or trial.  In a totalitarian police state, the secret police can do anything.  After all, unlike in democratic societies, in a totalitarian police state like Israel, there is no law.  There is only the appearance of legality to paper over the reality of arbitrary naked force lurking just below the surface.  The “law” guarantees all kinds of freedoms in Israel, just like it did in the USSR and still does in Syria, Iran, North Korea or Zimbawe or any other similar country.  But only children and naïve immigrants who do not know any better would actually believe what the “law” says.  In actuality, the secret police need only point a finger, write a memo, and a man disappears into the gulag.  If he is lucky, he might make it out.  If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”.  Or he might just rot away in some dungeon forever, and never again see the light of day.  In Israel, the façade is prettier than in Zimbabwe or North Korea, and the authorities are more restrained by the need to maintain the façade, but only when the cameras are watching.  When there are no cameras watching, Israel might as well be Zimbabwe.

Now, once he was arrested, Ephraim did all the right, good and noble things a proper Jew is supposed to do when arrested by the Israelis.  He refused to acknowledge their authority to arrest him.  He refused to talk to them.  He refused to recognize the legitimacy of their “courts” or their “law”.  He refused, in short, to be treated as anything other than what he was, that being a prisoner of war seized arbitrarily and illegally by a foreign force illegitimately occupying his country.

But then a funny thing happened.  While Ephraim was bravely defying the Israeli occupier, the other Jews in the Holy Land did… absolutely nothing.  No one protested on his behalf.  No one sprayed graffiti on buildings or pasted posters with his face on every street corner, demanding his freedom.  No one took Israeli soldiers hostage to exchange for him.  No one blew up border cops or ambushed policemen to avenge his illegal detention.  He was utterly alone.  No one was actually struggling to build a Torah State.  The few who should have been busy inspiring the struggle were busy with nonsense.  The many who should have been struggling were never inspired.  And the few brave heroes willing to sacrifice their lives to actually do battle with the regime as urban guerrillas would not do so for him, because they did not know him and he was not one of them.  And thus his noble defiance was utterly useless.

In a way, Ephraim Khantsis was lucky.  Unlike numerous underage girls at Amona, he was neither raped nor sexually assaulted.  Unlike Yaakov Teitel, he was not tortured to within an inch of his life, driven insane and forced to confess to every unsolved police case since the shooting of Arlosoff.  Unlike Chaim Perlman, he was not subjected to strappado.  Unlike Rav Binyamin Kahane (z”l), he was not murdered.  In the end, he was simply deported back to America.  One hopes that he is wiser for the experience.

The story of Ephraim Khantsis, dear reader, is a cautionary tale about the utility of new American olim at this stage of the national liberation struggle.  Unless you speak good Hebrew, can blend into Israeli society, have good connections in Eretz Yisrael and thus many places to hide from the enemy, and can pass for an Israeli at need, you are of no use whatsoever in Eretz Yisrael.  All you are going to do is get yourself arrested and deported if you are lucky.  If you are unlucky, the Shabak will quietly murder you.  And no one will care.

If you are an American Jew who wants to make a difference, do not listen to the aliyah rants of Tzvi Fishman and his ilk.  Your body is not needed in Eretz Yisrael.  Today, what is needed is your time, your voice, your money and your political support.  The idea of Medinat Yehudah must spread and you must help to spread it.  Once the idea spreads far enough, there will be a national liberation struggle.  During the coming struggle, Jewish communities in Yosh will need funding.  Jewish self-defense organizations will need weapons.  Medinat Yehudah activists struggling in Eretz Yisrael will need equipment, technical aid and moral support.  Even today, though most of the money that goes to Yosh is simply wasted, organizations like the Central Fund funnel millions of dollars to worthwhile projects.

When the time comes and there is a Stage One transition, you might be useful as a fundraiser in America or as a participant in the War of Symbols in Israel.  When there is a Stage Two transition, you will be useful as both a fundraiser and, if you wish it, a fighter.  When the War of Independence begins in earnest, all who want to fight will have ample opportunity to do so.  Until then, have patience.  Advocate.  Spread the word.  Gather skills.  Learn Hebrew.  Save money.  Wait.  And ignore the aliyah rants.  That is all you can do.

Shabbat Shalom

10 Elul, 5770
« Last Edit: August 20, 2010, 02:48:51 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2010, 04:58:30 PM »
Vienna Mike tells it like it is in terms of "reality on the ground" in Eretz Yisrael.

The State apparatus has morphed into a full scale Bolshevik Stazi State.

Apparently Barry Chamitz's expose's of the evil ongoing inside Israel today is mostly true, if not all true.

Disagree with the authorities in Israel?

You meet up with a tragic accident, just like in the USSR of days past.

Offline Ari Ben-Canaan

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2284
  • "The Necromancers Could Not Stand Before Moses."
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2010, 05:01:40 PM »
I just read this before I got to the JTF forum.  Enlightening, but saddening.

KWR-BT, I think I saw you post up the Medinat Yehudah website 1st, so kudos to you for sharing it [its been a good regular read for me the past week].
"You must keep the arab under your boot or he will be at your throat" -Unknown

"When we tell the Arab, ‘Come, I want to help you and see to your needs,’ he doesn’t look at us like gentlemen. He sees weakness and then the wolf shows what he can do.” - Maimonides

 “I am all peace, but when I speak, they are for war.” -Psalms 120:7

"The difference between a Jewish liberal and a Jewish conservative is that when a Jewish liberal walks out of the Holocaust Museum, he feels, "This shows why we need to have more tolerance and multiculturalism." The Jewish conservative feels, "We should have killed a lot more Nazis, and sooner."" - Philip Klein

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2010, 05:18:45 PM »
In general I do not agree with this Vienna Mike. The truth is that by dissuading Jews from making aliyah he is doing more damage than anything. If all the religious Jews were in Israel there would be no way that any evil state could do anything about it... If the majority of the Jews took control of the government they could change the evil nature of the state. Maybe this is why Vienna Mike is acting like the spies in the desert..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline JTFenthusiast2

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2828
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2010, 12:20:31 AM »
This article represents a point of view that some of us have not been exposed to.  What's the expression, "a stranger in a strage land.'

Online Chaim Ben Pesach

  • Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5773
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2010, 12:31:08 AM »
בס''ד

This article is pure baloney written by a wimpy Jew who wants to make excuses for his cowardly decision to stay in the galut.

The Shabak is an evil organization controlled by an evil government. But the claim that they are murdering Jewish dissidents is preposterous. They do arrest and imprison Jews solely for expressing their views from time to time. That is certainly obscene and unforgivable. But they are not murdering Jews and then trying to pass it off as "accidents".

Jews are obligated to live in the Land of Israel even if there is an evil government there. Jews who fail to do so are violating Torah law.

As far as Ephraim Khantsis or "Doom" is concerned, I am not surprised that he immediately got into trouble. He is the guy who ran Mike Guzofsky's petty splinter forum - a forum of five or six losers who spent virtually all of their time obsessively attacking me personally and JTF in general. These are people who never accomplished a single thing for the Jewish people, but they have the unmitigated chutzpah to attack those who led the historic campaign to liberate 1.5 million Jews in the former Soviet Union. Indeed, Ephraim would still be in the Ukraine if not for our campaign to save Soviet Jewry. Just in case people forgot, Ephraim's sinat chinam (needless hatred) toward his fellow Jews led him to even assist the Nazi Tina Greco when she was a member of his pathetic forum, and she openly bragged on his forum that she had posted pictures of JTF members on the Nazi web site StørmFrønt. Ephraim and Mike Guzofsky refused to remove her posts or ban her for a whole week. In other words, they were willing to work with Nazis just to get at JTF.

If there is one thing that we know about the splinter haters like Guzofsky, Ephraim Khantsis, David HaIvri and Shelly Rubin, it's that they are clownish amateurs with big mouths who never accomplish anything other than embarrass the real Kahanist movement - which is JTF/Hayamin Haamiti. The fact that Ephraim got in trouble as he went around making revolutionary rants in Bolshevik Israel was quite predictable. The fact that he decided to run away from Israel to live in the galut again the minute he had a legal problem is also predictable.

If anyone is going to tell me that he is a fellow Jew and that I should sympathize with him, I show him as much sympathy as he and his hero Irv Rubin ys"v showed toward the real Jewish hero Jonathan Pollard. Rubin proclaimed on the Merv Griffin Show before 30 million television viewers that Pollard should get the death penalty. Ephraim and Guzi and HaIvri defend the traitor Rubin. They always defend traitors and they always condemn real heroes. Sorry if I can't bring myself to sympathize with them.

BTW if you are planning to move to Israel and if you start calling for the violent overthrow of the government, you will have legal problems. But if you have any brains, the odds are you will not have any legal problems. Many activists from the real JDL that I led in the 1980s live in Israel for years now, a number of prominent JTFers have moved there, and we have a very active Hebrew forum. None of these people have had any problems because they do not run around calling for violent revolution. They are open Kahanists but they are Kahanists with brains.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2010, 01:06:12 AM »
Yimach schmo vezichro to Doom, Tina Greco, Kelly Scott, and the retard and his shiksa "girlfriend".

Offline JTFenthusiast2

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2828
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2010, 11:56:00 AM »
Chaim,

When I read this article, I assumed he was living in Israel and speaking to us as someone who was on the frontlines of Judea and Samaria.  His tone makes it seem like he is an insider.  I read the article in my usual speed read kind of way and I didn't catch the part about his allegations that the Shabak murders (authentic) Jewish dissidents. 

Online Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2010, 12:04:12 PM »
In another one of his posts, he said America was NOT his country. 

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2010, 03:33:36 PM »
I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.

Online Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2010, 05:42:51 PM »
In another post, Vienna Mike describes himself as a soldier. So I just assumed he was living in Israel. 

Offline JTFenthusiast2

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2828
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2010, 08:51:32 PM »
I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.


In what Chaim wrote, I thought that Vienna was perceived as having meant the Shabak deliberately goes out and kills people.  I did go back to see what I missed.  He implies it.  It doesn't take much to read between the lines of his glaring sarcasm. 

"If he is lucky, he might make it out.  If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”. "

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2010, 10:36:13 PM »
I don't speed read articles because you miss very important details that way.


In what Chaim wrote, I thought that Vienna was perceived as having meant the Shabak deliberately goes out and kills people.  I did go back to see what I missed.  He implies it.  It doesn't take much to read between the lines of his glaring sarcasm. 

"If he is lucky, he might make it out.  If he is unlucky, he might have an “accident”, “die of disease” or be “shot while attempting to escape”. "

Indeed, he does claim this.  And it's completely unsubstantiated.     


Very interesting comments, Chaim.


Lisa, I too perceived that vienna mike is someone living in Israel while claiming not to in order to make a strong argument against certain tactics of people who do live in Israel.  On the other hand, I find that site's rhetoric goes too far at times.  For instance, it's one thing to say to Fishman and other yesha activists "your arguments are not effective, you're not convincing people to move there, and you need to do x y and z practical steps for fortifying your own existence before other Jews will join you."   So until they do certain things it is a vain hope for masses of Jews to come join them and magically fix things (some writers often give this impression in their aliyah promotion) - they need to 'get their act together' so to speak and only then can they reasonable expect to convince Jews to join them.   This I think is quite a strong argument he makes in many places in the site and over at A7.   However, it's quite another thing to actually dissuade good Kahanist Jews who already have the passion and already are convinced that Israel is the place they have to be, to dissuade these Jews from coming home is an evil thing to do.   I have to agree with Chaim in his comment about that.

Online Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2010, 05:36:52 PM »
I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum.  From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah. 

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #14 on: August 23, 2010, 06:55:12 PM »
I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum.  From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah. 
Doom you mean? Doom is a Nazi-collaborating Judenrat.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2010, 08:10:47 PM »
I wonder if he would be interested in joining this forum.  From what I've read on his blog, there are many areas in which we agree, except for his dissuading Jews to make aliyah. 
Doom you mean? Doom is a Nazi-collaborating Judenrat.

No, she is talking about vienna mike, the author/authors of the Virtual Judah site.

I've been reading his stuff for years now, and he is not only very intelligent but very learned as well, especially in military matters and the history of warfare.

Online Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2010, 08:36:30 PM »
Well he certainly seems very intelligent, and he's a good writer. 

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #17 on: August 23, 2010, 09:16:56 PM »
As for Vienna Mike, my take on reading his articles was that he was not discouraging aliyah per se, but rather suggesting that American Jews of a nationalist mindset wishing to make a real difference in saving the Jewish People would be better off postponing their move until the State of Judah was ready for trained and dedicated young Jews prepared to immediately construct settlements and begin defending the land and people through force of arms.  Therefore he was suggesting that the greatest service young nationalist Jews could render to the Jewish people in Medinat Yisrael would be to remain here in the West temporarily to finance and help arm the new State, all the while training in earnest here in preparation of the austerity and hardships which would lay ahead.  Otherwise, Mike believes, those making aliyah today would in effect be "fish out of water" for several or more years as they attempted to acclimate into a repressive and leftist dominated society bent on defeat and surrender.
He writes extremely well, is very well read, and apparently familiar with military strategy.  Not everything he proposes seems thoroughly thought out, but over all I like his far-reaching thinking about real solutions to the problems inside Medinat Yisrael.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #18 on: August 23, 2010, 09:47:02 PM »
I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #19 on: August 23, 2010, 10:44:07 PM »
As for Vienna Mike, my take on reading his articles was that he was not discouraging aliyah per se, but rather suggesting that American Jews of a nationalist mindset wishing to make a real difference in saving the Jewish People would be better off postponing their move until the State of Judah was ready for trained and dedicated young Jews prepared to immediately construct settlements and begin defending the land and people through force of arms.  

But that is essentially discouraging aliyah.   It's just calling it "postponing" rather than rejecting outright.  But postponing is the same thing.  No one would have the gall to suggest that we'll NEVER go back to Israel.  Even the most antizionist sects say that eventually we will go to Israel.  Yet they discourage aliyah by saying "now is not the time" for whatever reason is given.   So he is essentially discouraging aliyah with all of this rationalization aside, especially because the things he recommends diaspora Jews giving aid to from abroad (as you mention below) don't actually exist on the ground yet.  It's just another side of the "wait til moshiach" coin, in my opinion.  Just a new and more rational excuse in its place.  Still waiting for some future event that may or may not happen in this Jew's lifetime.   And neither excuse has validity in Jewish law.

Quote
  Therefore he was suggesting that the greatest service young nationalist Jews could render to the Jewish people in Medinat Yisrael would be to remain here in the West temporarily to finance and help arm the new State, all the while training in earnest here in preparation of the austerity and hardships which would lay ahead.

It's a great idea in theory but there is nothing to finance and arm because nothing exists on the ground that resembles his vision of a state of Judah or pre-state, or even a political wing.  So the american Jew is basically just sitting on his hands but has a more profound and crafty excuse than before to not fulfill his duty as a Jew to ascend to the land.

Quote
Otherwise, Mike believes, those making aliyah today would in effect be "fish out of water" for several or more years as they attempted to acclimate into a repressive and leftist dominated society bent on defeat and surrender.

This was always the part of his argument that I could not quite understand.   If an American Jew is only playing a waiting game by sitting tight in America, wouldn't it make more sense to play the exact same waiting game, (ready to join in the struggle with funding, propaganda, military training, ready to jump right into the hardships that lie ahead), but while already acclimating to Israel by becoming an oleh, learning the language, and working and living in Israel making for a much smoother transition and much smoother incorporation into the ranks of the medinat yehudah activists/soldiers when the time is right?

I have always said that according to what he writes, one is actually better off playing the same waiting game as an immigrant in Israel, already on the ground and ready.  It gets all the logistical, absorption, and parnassa issues out of the way ahead of time rather than at the point when we need ready activists/footsoldiers to jump into the struggle in whichever avenue.    Not to mention that playing that waiting game outside the land puts a lot at risk because that time may never come.  There is no guarantee a movement like this ever gets off the ground.   Then you have many well meaning nationalist Jews sitting in galut wishing they had gone home earlier in life and looking back in regret that they never went proudly to their homeland when they had the chance.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:49:30 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2010, 10:45:34 PM »
I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...


Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas.   The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion.  They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel.   It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on.  The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents.   They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree.   The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old.  Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2010, 10:54:36 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #21 on: August 23, 2010, 11:31:11 PM »
I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...


Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas.   The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion.  They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel.   It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on.  The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents.   They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree.   The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old.  Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.

Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Online Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2010, 11:43:44 PM »
Although you were addressing KWRBT, I'll jump in and say yes.  He refers to Rabbi Meir Kahane as the Holy Martyr Rebbe z"l.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2010, 11:45:38 PM »
I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...


Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas.   The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion.  They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel.   It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on.  The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents.   They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree.   The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old.  Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.

Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...



I try to avoid labeling people.   It misses the point.  And it reduces complex things to absurd simplicity, encouraging intellectual laziness.  

Aside from that, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the question.  

Before, you mentioned his "complaining."  The complaining I see from him is about many of the same things Rabbi Kahane complained about in his day (only there are more complaints to amass from events which occurred in the years since the Rabbi passed away).   What does that tell you?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The Story of Ephraim Khantsis
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 12:14:12 AM »
I think he complains too much and never offers any solution. I have read his postings on Fishmans blog and generally I find his posts annoying... Sorry...


Actually, the blog he writes offers solutions which are quite practical if enough people got behind the ideas.   The complaints he raises are quite valid, in my opinion.  They are the complaints on the mind of every nationalist-thinking Jew (or at least the vast majority) with the events taking place today in Israel.   It is the post-Oslo consciousness that will only grow and spread as time goes on.  The problem is that everyone else seems to offer no solutions, especially those who shout down the practical ideas he presents.   They should offer better solutions or better ideas if they disagree.   The same old stale thinking is not working, and it's getting old.  Because we are just dragged deeper and deeper into the oslo muck with the conventional thinking and conventional approach on the right.

Would you consider Vienna Mike in the Kahanist camp? I did not get that impression from his postings in Talkbacks on A7...



I try to avoid labeling people.   It misses the point.  And it reduces complex things to absurd simplicity, encouraging intellectual laziness.  

Aside from that, I'm not 100% sure what you mean by the question.  

Before, you mentioned his "complaining."  The complaining I see from him is about many of the same things Rabbi Kahane complained about in his day (only there are more complaints to amass from events which occurred in the years since the Rabbi passed away).   What does that tell you?

Rabbi Kahane, from what I have read and heard from videos, never told Jews to not move to Israel. The whole idea, as far as I understand it, is that the Jews must move to Eretz Yisroel and vote in the existing system in order to get more seats in the government. Rabbi Kahane started his own party which was able to make some headway in starting the process.

I have not read much besides what Vienna Mike writes in his talkbacks. Because I have such a negative opinion of his position I hesitate to read his website. If I was told that I am wrong about my opinion because he really wants a strong Jewish state which attempts to govern righteously with Torah wisdom then I might start to change my opinion. Does he also support the position that the arabs in the land of Israel should be relocated?

It seems that you have given your support for his position and as a result my feelings may soften about what he says.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14