Author Topic: Kabbalist  (Read 6001 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Iron Greek

  • Senior JTFer
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
Kabbalist
« on: August 24, 2010, 06:38:00 AM »
My brother was talking about how kabbalists are evil jews! Could someone knowledgeable please somewhat educate me on this??? I also hear that many famous celebrities are kabbalists!

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 06:45:49 AM »
There are true occultists who are very evil who use something with the same name but I doubt it's the same thing as the real Jewish Kabbalah. I think the occultists give it a different spelling, like Cabbalah or Qabbalah.

I've been curious about asking what the differences are since I am pretty sure they can't be the same thing.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 08:14:52 AM »
Rubystars on Kabbalah:  "I've been curious about asking what the differences [of the many 'versions' and 'followers' claiming to follow Kabbalah] ... since I am pretty sure they can't be the same thing. "

The differences are as infinite as the backgrounds of the people claiming to use Kabbalah.

The Kabbalah is a very old book of esoteric Jewish mysticism drawn from a very deep understanding of Torah scriptures, which according to its author are a compilation of hidden metaphysical revelations about the very nature and attributes of G-d and Creation.

Devout observant Jews consider that its study is reserved only for the very few who meet stringent requirements, not the least of which is a prerequisite and thorough understanding of the Jewish Torah.

Among the few approved to take up the study of Kabbalah, fewer still are able to decipher and comprehend it.

So, to answer Iron Greek's question I must reply with another question:

If assuming that a herdsman from remote Outer Mongolia is confused when trying to discern and understand what is meant by the word "Christian" when referenced in print, then which of the following values, faith, and lifestyles is accurately represented by the use of the word "Christian" ? -

The Pope of Rome
President George W. Bush
President Barack Hussein Obama
Reverend Jimmy Swaggart
The ArchBishop of Canterbury
Pope Shinouda
The late Reverend Jerry Falwell
"The Reverend" Jesse Jackson

Nothing can prevent the lies and mistruths, the many distorted forgeries and distortions of the text itself, and the thousands of hucksters and frauds all claiming to know and follow any one of thousand different "versions" of Kabbalah for their own ends and purposes, just as nothing can prevent such disparate groups as the Mormons, Scientologists, Unity Church, Unitarians, FreeMasonry, and others from their borrowing and using the same symbolism and scriptures with each claiming their use to be legitimate.

I hope this helps to clear up any confusion regarding the many rumors and untruths circulating about an obscure text which attempts to reveal that which is hidden within Torah.

*interesting footnote:
Perhaps the largest serious undertaking of the study of Kabbalah today is to be found within the Vatican in Rome, which owns a large archive of early Kabbalah texts.



Offline Spiraling Leopard

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5423
  • Eternal Vigilance
    • PIGtube-channel:
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 08:45:00 AM »
Is Kabbalah even a text? I thought it had something to do with an explanation of existence upon the 'Tree of Life'.
There are also books from crowbly or so with supposedly 'Kabbalistic' numerology.

According to quantum physics there is no time and no space and all knowledge is present in each and every cell. By knowing yourself, you can therefore know the universe and it's a lot safer than following some bald satanist.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2010, 12:12:25 PM »
My brother was talking about how kabbalists are evil jews! Could someone knowledgeable please somewhat educate me on this??? I also hear that many famous celebrities are kabbalists!

Your brother doesn't know what he's talking about.

Kabbalah is a legitimate mystical strain in Judaism and Jewish philosophy.   Some people focus in on this over other subject areas and develop an expertise or consider the mystical philosophy more important than other philosophies in Judaism.  Such scholars (rabbis who keep Jewish law according to Orthodox Judaism) who focus in this way on the mysticism are called Kabbalists.  They are bound to obey Jewish law like any other Jew.  They can be good or bad people like any other Jew.  The kabbalah itself, understood as real Jewish kabbalist scholars understand it, does not make them a bad person.   It is not "occult" practice in the way modern day christians understand this term.    They practice Jewish law!

I personally do not subscribe to the mystical outlook and do not spend my time with kabbalah but to call its followers "evil" is insane ignorance.

There are some phonies out there who are deformed Jews (reformists) who DO NOT keep Jewish law, and who DO NOT have any expertise or any knowledge of real Judaism, yet they call themselves "kabbalists" (they are not real kabbalists) because they translated a copy of the zohar into English and started to "teach" their misunderstandings to non-Jews like Madonna to make a fortune.   These phonies who run the "kabbalah center" are embroiled in sex scandal, are sex maniacs and phonies, as evil as any other secular crook who deceives people for money.

And of course as Massuh notes, there are other religions who have shared/borrowed the notions of Jewish kabbalah, put their own spins on it, misinterpret it, misunderstand it, simply adopt it exactly as the Jews explain it, etc, but I don't think they call themselves kabbalists.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2010, 05:27:36 PM »
Spiraling Leapord:  "By knowing yourself, you can therefore know the universe and it's a lot safer than following some bald satanist. "

You must have been reading some 'articles", SL.

Offline Spiraling Leopard

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5423
  • Eternal Vigilance
    • PIGtube-channel:
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2010, 05:34:58 PM »
Spiraling Leapord:  "By knowing yourself, you can therefore know the universe and it's a lot safer than following some bald satanist. "

You must have been reading some 'articles", SL.

The articles that I grand my full attention to are usually worthwhile, and the effort I put in putting it into practice is also worthwhile.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2010, 07:56:58 PM »
Massuh thanks for your post, I think I understand the difference better now. I was a little confused when in my researches this same term kept popping up even though I knew there had to be a stark difference at some point.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2010, 08:39:03 PM »
I've got a different but related question. What's the difference between the Magen David used to represent the Jewish people (which I've always seen as a positive symbol), and the occultic hexagram? When did Jews first start using the Magen David?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2010, 08:41:38 PM »
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/kabbalah.htm

Mysticism in Judaism

When non-Jews ask about Judaism, they commonly ask questions like:  Do you believe in heaven and hell?  In angels or the devil?  What happens to the soul after death?  What is the nature of God and the universe?  The answers to questions like these define most religions; in fact, some people say that the purpose of religion is to answer these kinds of questions.  Yet from a Torah viewpoint, most of these cosmological issues are wide open to personal opinion.  The areas of Jewish thought that most extensively discuss these issues, Kabbalah and Jewish mysticism, were traditionally not even taught to people until the age of 40, when they had completed their education in Written Torah and Oral Torah (in other words, in Bible and practical Law).

Mysticism and mystical experiences have been a part of Judaism since the earliest days.  The Bible contains many stories of mystical experiences, from visitations by angels to prophetic dreams and visions.  The Talmud considers the existence of the soul and when it becomes attached to the body.  Jewish tradition tells that the souls of all Jews were in existence at the time of the Giving of the Torah and were present at the time and agreed to the Covenant.  There are many stories of places similar to the Gentiles' heaven and hell.  The Talmud contains vague hints of a mystical school of thought that was taught only to the most advanced students and was not committed to writing.  There are several references in ancient sources to ma'aseh bereishit (the work of creation) and ma'aseh merkavah (the work of the chariot [of Ezekiel's vision]), the two primary subjects of mystical thought at the time.

In the middle ages, many of these mystical teachings were committed to writing in books like the Zohar.  Many of these writings were asserted to be secret ancient writings or compilations of secret ancient writings, and some probably are.  It is important to remember, however, that such secret writings that are not the results of public debate in authorative rabbinical courts must never be understood (actually misunderstood) as contradicting the laws that were openly discussed and properly enacted.  All too many Jews as a practial matter have rejected the law and have prefered to practice their misunderstandings of Kabbalistic books or their rabbis' misunderstandings of them.  This is simply inexcusable:  The proper subject for such writings is why we do what we do when we observe the Torah, not what we need to do to observe the Torah.

Like most subjects of Jewish belief, the area of mysticism is wide open to personal interpretation.  Some traditional Jews take mysticism very seriously.  Mysticism is an integral part of Chasidic Judaism, for example, and passages from kabbalistic sources are routinely included in traditional prayer books.  Other traditional Jews take mysticism with a grain of salt.  One prominent Orthodox Jew, when introducing a speaker on the subject of Jewish mysticism, said basically, "it's nonsense, but it's Jewish nonsense, and the study of anything Jewish, even nonsense, is worthwhile".  While we do not say that Kabbalah is nonsense, many things said in its name are clearly nonsense.

The mystical school of thought came to be known as Kabbalah, from the Hebrew root Qof-Bet-Lamed, meaning to receive, to accept.  The word is usually translated as "tradition".  In Hebrew, the word does not have any of the dark, sinister, evil connotations that it has developed in English.  For example, the English word "cabal" (a secret group of conspirators) is derived from the Hebrew word Kabbalah, but neither the Hebrew word nor the mystical doctrines have any evil implications to Jews.
Kabbalah:  The Misunderstood Doctrine

Kabbalah is one of the most grossly misunderstood parts of Judaism.  Some non-Jews (and even some Jews) describe Kabbalah as "the dark side of Judaism".  Many of these misunderstandings arose largely from distortions of the teachings of Kabbalah by non-Jewish mystics and occultists.  Kabbalah was popular among Christian intellectuals during the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods, who reinterpreted its doctrines to fit into their Christian dogma.  For example, one such source (the Kabbalah Denudata, commonly available in new age bookstores) states that the Ten Sefirot have something to do with the Christian Trinity because they are sometimes divided up into groups of three, despite that the Sefirot are divided up into many groups of varying numbers, that these groupings overlap, that the grouping he refers to is not comprised of a father, son, and spirit, but of a male, a female, and neutral, and so forth.  Others have wrenched kabbalistic symbolism out of context for use in tarot card readings and other forms of divination and magic that were never a part of the original Jewish teachings.

We do not mean to suggest that magic is not a part of Kabbalah.  The most hidden, secretive part of Kabbalah, commonly known as "practical Kabbalah", involves use of hidden knowledge to affect the world in ways that could be described as magic.  The Talmud and other sources ascribe supernatural activities to many great rabbis.  Some rabbis pronounced a name of God and ascended into heaven to consult with the God and the angels on issues of great public concern.  One scholar is said to have created an artificial man by reciting various names of God.  Much later stories tell of a rabbi who created a man out of clay and brought it to life by putting in its mouth a piece of paper with a name of God on it.  Some of these stories are no doubt untrue, at least as understood literally; but some are true.  However, this area of Kabbalah is known by very few, and practiced by even fewer.  One great rabbi has said that these practices should be totally avoided, except when the Temple stands; that seems very sound advice to us.
Ein Sof and the Ten Sefirot

To give you an idea of the nature of Kabbalah, we will briefly tell about one of the better known, fundamental concepts of kabbalistic thought:  the concept of God as Ein Sof and the Ten Sefirot.  This explanation is, at best, a gross oversimplification.

The true essence of God is so transcendent that it cannot be described, except with reference to what it is not.  This true essence of God is known in Kabbalah as "Ein Sof", which literally means without end, which encompasses the idea of His lack of boundaries in both time and space.  In this truest form, the Ein Sof is so transcendent that it cannot have any direct interaction with the universe.  The Ein Sof is said to interact with the created universe through ten emanations from this essence, known as the Ten Sefirot.

The Sefirot are not deities, as some think by taking this too literally.  They are God's separate created mechanisms for dealing with the world, and they are in contact with the universe in a way that the Ein Sof is not.  The Sefirot connect with everything in the universe, including humanity.  We would say that the point of the Sefirot is to give an explanation of how God really is ultimately in control of the world, sees all, and rewards and punishes as He sees fit; but he does this by way of these mechanisms, not directly.  And do not make the mistake of worshiping them or praying to them or by way of them, as all too many have, as that is idolatry punishable by death, exclusion from the Jewish people, and exclusion from the World to Come.
Suggested Reading

Readings in this area should be undertaken with extreme caution.  There is entirely too much literature out there under the name "Kabbalah" that has little or nothing to do with the true Jewish teachings on this subject.  Any book on the subject of practical Kabbalah should be disregarded immediately; no legitimate source would ever make such teachings available to a faceless mass audience.

Unless you are an expert in both the whole of the Hebrew Bible and the whole of the Law as summarized in the Rambam's Mishneh Torah (both in the original Hebrew, not in English translation), you should not even bother about learning Kabbalah.

If you are really serious about Kabbalah, once you have properly qualified yourself by learning Bible and the Law, you must get yourself a teacher that you can work with one-on-one, in person.  But be very careful about choosing a teacher, as some will teach you to worship idols in the name of our Holy Torah, as we have witnessed with our own eyes and heard with our own ears!  It is distasteful for us to mention this, but we would be irresponsible if we did not warn you.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2010, 08:43:35 PM »
I've got a different but related question. What's the difference between the Magen David used to represent the Jewish people (which I've always seen as a positive symbol), and the occultic hexagram? When did Jews first start using the Magen David?

It is called the Star of David, said to have been used as a symbol on the shield of King David.

There is a good article on this at Aish.com..

http://www.aish.com/jl/sp/k/48942436.html

Quote
Star of David
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

From the Holocaust to the Israeli flag, what is the deeper meaning of this six-pointed Jewish symbol?

In modern times, the Star of David has become a premier Jewish symbol. This six-pointed star (hexagram), made of two interlocking triangles, can be found on mezuzahs, menorahs, tallis bags, and kipot. Ambulances in Israel bear the sign of the "Red Star of David," and the flag of Israel has a blue Star of David planted squarely in the center.

What is the origin of this six-pointed symbol?

    The six points symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions.

Through the Jewish people's long and often difficult history, we have come to the realization that our only hope is to place our trust in God. The six points of the Star of David symbolize God's rule over the universe in all six directions: north, south, east, west, up and down.

Originally, the Hebrew name Magen David -- literally "Shield of David" -- poetically referred to God. It acknowledges that our military hero, King David, did not win by his own might, but by the support of the Almighty. This is also alluded to in the third blessing after the Haftorah reading on Shabbat: "Blessed are you God, Shield of David."

Various other explanations exist on the meaning behind the Star of David.

One idea is that a six-pointed star receives form and substance from its solid center. This inner core represents the spiritual dimension, surrounded by the six universal directions. (A similar idea applies to Shabbat -- the seventh day which gives balance and perspective to the six weekdays.)

    In Kabbalah, the two triangles represent the dichotomies inherent in man.

In Kabbalah, the two triangles represent the dichotomies inherent in man: good vs. evil, spiritual vs. physical, etc. The two triangles may also represent the reciprocal relationship between the Jewish people and God. The triangle pointing "up" symbolizes our good deeds which go up to heaven, and then activate a flow of goodness back down to the world, symbolized by the triangle pointing down.

Some note that the Star of David is a complicated interlocking figure which has not six (hexogram) but rather 12 (dodecogram) sides. One can consider it as composed of two overlapping triangles or as composed of six smaller triangles emerging from a central hexogram. Like the Jewish people, the star has 12 sides, representing the 12 tribes of Israel.

A more practical theory is that during the Bar Kochba rebellion (first century), a new technology was developed for shields using the inherent stability of the triangle. Behind the shield were two interlocking triangles, forming a hexagonal pattern of support points. (Buckminster Fuller showed how strong triangle-based designs are with his geodesics.)

One cynical suggestion is that the Star of David is an appropriate symbol for the internal strife that often afflicts Jewish nation: two triangles pointing in opposite directions!

    The Star of David was also a sad symbol of the Holocaust.

The Star of David was a sad symbol of the Holocaust, when the Nazis forced Jews to wear an identifying yellow star. Actually, Jews were forced to wear special badges during the Middle Ages, both by Muslim and Christian authorities, and even in Israel under the Ottoman Empire.

So whether it is a blue star waving proudly on a flag, or a gold star adorning a synagogue's entrance, the Star of David stands as a reminder that for the Jewish people... in God we trust.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline JTFenthusiast2

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 2828
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2010, 09:10:49 PM »
Madonna (now known as Esther) be real into the Kabbalah, mmm hmmm.  I believe Schmuley Boteach was her advisor in these matters

 :::D :::D :::D

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2010, 09:26:26 PM »
Muman thank you for the very good articles you posted. The second one gives some interesting information about what the six pointed star means to Jews, but it doesn't really get into when they began to use it as their symbol.

I've read on some sites which are not exactly Jewish-friendly that it has to do with the Rothschilds, but I don't necessarily believe everything I read. I take what I read with a grain of salt until I can find out more.

When and why was this symbol associated with Jews in the first place?

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2010, 09:28:33 PM »
Madonna (now known as Esther) be real into the Kabbalah, mmm hmmm.  I believe Schmuley Boteach was her advisor in these matters

 :::D :::D :::D

That guy confuses me so much. He acts like he's all holy and religious but when you listen to his radio program he lets a lot of things slip like calling Islam one of the great world religions, etc. He's such a weirdo.

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2010, 09:34:15 PM »
Quote from: Rubystars on August 24, 2010, 08:39:03 PM
I've got a different but related question. What's the difference between the Magen David used to represent the Jewish people (which I've always seen as a positive symbol), and the occultic hexagram? When did Jews first start using the Magen David?

Quote from: Rubystars on August 24, 2010, 08:39:03 PM
I've got a different but related question. What's the difference between the Magen David used to represent the Jewish people (which I've always seen as a positive symbol), and the occultic hexagram? When did Jews first start using the Magen David?

Quote from: Rubystars on August 24, 2010, 08:39:03 PM
I've got a different but related question. What's the difference between the Magen David used to represent the Jewish people (which I've always seen as a positive symbol), and the occultic hexagram? When did Jews first start using the Magen David?


Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2010, 10:05:39 PM »
Muman thank you for the very good articles you posted. The second one gives some interesting information about what the six pointed star means to Jews, but it doesn't really get into when they began to use it as their symbol.

I've read on some sites which are not exactly Jewish-friendly that it has to do with the Rothschilds, but I don't necessarily believe everything I read. I take what I read with a grain of salt until I can find out more.

When and why was this symbol associated with Jews in the first place?


Rubystars,

Obviously what the antisemites claim is completely ridiculous. The Rothschilds were not around 1700 years ago... According to this article the Magen David has been found on ancient tombstones...



http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/60/Q1/

Roy Bernstein of Simon's Town, South Africa wrote:

What is the origin of the Magen David? Does it have any mystical connections? The reason I ask is that geometrically, it is very interesting; a magen david can be circumscribed by a hexagon. The inside of a magen david is also a hexagon and therefore one can draw another similar magen david inside it. This process may be carried on ad infinitum. The bottom line is that the magen david actually contains an infinity of hexagons! Moreover, it is the smallest polygon (i.e. the one with the fewest sides) which has this property.


Dear Vered, BlondeJANE & Roy,

The six-pointed star has long been associated with the Jewish people. In Southern Italy, a tombstone dating back to 300 C.E. was found with a six-pointed star on it. In the year 1354, King Carl IV insisted that the Jews of Prague make a flag for themselves that would feature the six-pointed star as well as the five-pointed star of King Solomon.

The words "Magen David" literally mean "Shield of [King] David." Some say that the soldiers of King David's army wielded shields in the shape of a six-pointed star. King David's personal seal was not a star, but rather a shepherd's staff and bag. His son, King Solomon, used a five-pointed star for his personal seal.

In Kabbalistic teachings, one finds that the number six represents the Heavens and the Earth and the four directions (North, South, East, West). There are those who suggest that the Magen David with its six points correspond to this Kabbalistic idea, which in turn can represent G-d's Omnipresence. Interestingly, the words "Magen David," in Hebrew, are made up of six letters.

Some people have the tradition to hanging a Magen David in their Sukka. Perhaps the six sides allude to the six "Ushpizen" guests who visit during the first six days of Sukkot: Avraham, Yitzchak, Ya'akov, Moshe, Aharon, and Yosef. The star as a unified whole symbolizes the seventh "Ushpizen" -- David -- the "king" who unifies the whole. Furthermore, the Magen David has 12 sides: David as king unified the 12 tribes.

    While we're on the subject of kings, I'm reminded of the time when the King of England honored Hershel Greenbaum with a promotion to royalty. Hershel had memorized a Latin phrase to be recited during the inauguration ceremony, but in his nervousness he forgot what it was he was supposed to say. Assuming that no one there knew Latin anyway, he decided to ad-lib a Hebrew phrase instead:

    "Mah Nishtanah Halailah Hazeh Mikol Halaylot."

    Hearing this, the king turned to his minister and said, "Why is this knight different from all other knights?"
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2010, 10:08:34 PM »
Lisa, I read that article but it doesn't give much detail, just says that it began "in the Middle Ages" as a symbol of Jewish identity and that the religious use was from the 3-4th century as evidenced by it being used on a synagogue. That basically tells me nothing of substance about the symbol's origins as connected to Judaism, either the older religious usage or the sign of Jewish identity in the Middle Ages.

Offline AsheDina

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5665
  • PSALMS 129:5 "ZION" THE Cornerstone.
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2010, 10:13:27 PM »
WHY do people come here and ask these questions. It is because the REAL evil is in the heart of people.

Lincoln is the one who said;
(Something to this effect)

"Those who look for the bad in people will surely find it"

Is that what you are looking for Greek? Did WE hound YOU this way when YOU came here? NO. We were kind, and loving, and this is how you pay us.
SHEMA ISRAEL
שמע ישראל
I endorse NO Presidential Candidates

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2010, 10:15:10 PM »
Given that it says this in the wikipedia article:

"Usage by Jews

Magen David is a generally recognized symbol of Judaism and Jewish identity and is also known colloquially as the Jewish Star or "Star of David". Its usage as a sign of Jewish identity began in the Middle Ages, though its religious usage began earlier, with the current earliest archeological evidence being a stone bearing the shield from the arch of a 3-4th century synagogue in the Galilee [1] . "

For those "scholars" (really, revisionists) who claim it's not really a star of David, I want to know what explanation they give for the appearance of this symbol at such an early date if that were true, and also what explanation for why/how we came up with the term to start calling it a star of david if it was really never associated with David.  Sometimes the conventional wisdom is the most logical understanding, and I don't understand why they want to deny every possible tradition the Jewish people have.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2010, 10:16:26 PM »
Thank you Muman for posting the other article. That is also good information.

I have heard that just about everything that the bad people use is a reversal or perversion of what good people use. I think more than likely these stars are meant to have good meanings as you described but it's bad people that gave them perverse meanings to twist them and turn them away from what they were meant to be.

It's interesting to me to learn the different meanings, whether they're good or bad because you see these symbols crop up in various contexts and I think you can use the context of their placement to determine what is meant by them.

On the Israeli flag, I think the hexagram means something good and positive, but on the dollar bill, I think it's used as an occult reference. They just mean completely different things.

Thanks guys.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2010, 10:18:54 PM »
Lisa, I read that article but it doesn't give much detail, just says that it began "in the Middle Ages" as a symbol of Jewish identity and that the religious use was from the 3-4th century as evidenced by it being used on a synagogue. That basically tells me nothing of substance about the symbol's origins as connected to Judaism, either the older religious usage or the sign of Jewish identity in the Middle Ages.

Rubystars, if Jewish people used it as a religious symbol known as the star of David, that doesn't mean you're necessarily going to see it everywhere and it will be ubiquitous in archaeological finds, even if it was widespread at the time.   That one solitary finding preserves it, is evidence enough that it was in use.   I'm not sure what reason there is to question the Jewish explanation of the symbol.   What reason would we have to adopt the symbol for any other reason not those that we use to explain its significance and then preserve our own reasons but not the "real reasons?"

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2010, 10:33:30 PM »
I was asking what the origin of it was, not questioning the Jewish explanation. I didn't know what the Jewish explanation was. I was trying to learn and ask questions, because I believed and still do that the Jewish use of it is a good one, not a bad one. However, this symbol also has a different history used by many different peoples in a different way. Since it is so universal I was curious as to how it came to be associated with the Jewish people. That's all.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2010, 10:51:25 PM »

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline MassuhDGoodName

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4542
Re: Kabbalist
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2010, 10:58:13 PM »
Rubystars:  "I think I understand the difference better now "

After reading sections of Kabbalah, I've come to this conclusion:

If you finally realize that you are beginning to understand it, you've got some very serious problems.

I'm not kidding.

Whether it's all true or not; if you understand what it says, you have some very serious problems.

 ;D                                :::D