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Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2010, 05:57:57 PM »
Re:  "There have been news stories about embryos made from cow and human DNA, for example, but the claim is that these are stopped before they develop beyond a certain point."

Let me tell ya', right down the street from me is this guy who went off to Desert Storm.  Nobody knew exactly when he was supposed to come home.  In fact, nobody knew if he was even dead or alive.  Word was that he was all shot up with one of those IntraUterineDevices that the A-rabs put in the roads.  Some people told me they heard he'd been sent to one of them special hospitals where they clone people to grow new parts an stuff.  Well, anyway, about three weeks he came back home.  He's got one leg which is a chicken's leg, the other leg which is a turkey leg, and because he suffered from dizziness they stuck a third leg stickin' out from above his butt which I can only describe as some kind'a pelican beak or somethin'!  Instead of arms, he's got fish fins.  One of the fins has a monkey's paw on it, the other fin looks like a prehensile tail.  I went down there to visit him and 'cheer him up' for bein' a real hero.  He looked me square in the eye, and tole me that he don't go to the bathroom no more because the Government Agents let an alien core out his anus for an experiment!  This is all so dreadful an' terrible an' just has to stop!  Some alien's dun eatin his butthole for a snack just to make the U.S. Army on good terms with outer space!  Help!   Help!  Help!


Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2010, 07:29:59 PM »
KWRBT, I know the difference between mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA. However mixing these together into one cell/entity with a human's nuclear DNA and a cow's mitochondrial DNA being in the same cell is wrong to me. I think the researchers who were doing this experiment were just reporting what they were doing, but my point (poorly made, I suppose) was that other researchers might not be stopping these embryos from growing and might implant them. Also there might be other experiments as-yet unreported that mix nuclear DNA from different creatures.

I don't know exactly how they're getting pigs to have human blood running through their veins, but it scares me a bit:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html

Here's one hypothetical problem that's possible:
Quote
For example, an experiment that would raise concerns, he said, is genetically engineering mice to produce human sperm and eggs, then doing in vitro fertilization to produce a child whose parents are a pair of mice.

It says nobody would actually try to do that experiment, but I am not so sure. There have been scientists in the past that are willing to do the most unethical work.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2010, 07:45:12 PM by Rubystars »

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2010, 07:34:37 PM »
Massuh, lol that post reminds me of a tv show I was watching with a host that eats native, exotic foods. He was visiting an African tribe that used dung for their cookfires. One of the things they prepared for him to sample was a cattle anus that was cored out and on top of that, they were cooking it in the hot dung. The guy who was used to eating strange and exotic cuisine almost wasn't able to eat it, but felt obligated so as not to offend his hosts. It looked as disgusting as it sounds!  :o

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2010, 10:34:35 PM »
Re:  "that post reminds me of a tv show I was watching with a host that eats native, exotic foods. He was visiting an African tribe that used dung for their cookfires. One of the things they prepared for him to sample was a cattle anus that was cored out and on top of that, they were cooking it in the hot dung. "

I actually saw that show!

Can you believe they were eating anuses boiled in feces and thought it was an ethnic delicacy?

Well, ... on second thought, I guess it is an ethnic delicacy!      :::D

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2010, 06:26:49 AM »
Can you believe they were eating anuses boiled in feces and thought it was an ethnic delicacy?

Well, ... on second thought, I guess it is an ethnic delicacy!      :::D

Maybe it's Africans in the space ships after all mutilating cattle  :::D

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2010, 01:38:25 PM »
KWRBT, I know the difference between mitochondrial DNA and nuclear DNA. However mixing these together into one cell/entity with a human's nuclear DNA and a cow's mitochondrial DNA being in the same cell is wrong to me. I think the researchers who were doing this experiment were just reporting what they were doing, but my point (poorly made, I suppose) was that other researchers might not be stopping these embryos from growing and might implant them. Also there might be other experiments as-yet unreported that mix nuclear DNA from different creatures. 


I think this is paranoia for reasons I stated above.  There is nothing to gain and everything to lose from doing this if someone actually did.   And the rate of failure for such a procedure would guarantee not only the loss of career but also a failed experiment.

Also, I'm not sure why you think it's "wrong" to do what they did with a cell (to mix a cow egg cell with human nuclear DNA).

Quote

I don't know exactly how they're getting pigs to have human blood running through their veins, but it scares me a bit:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html


Personally, I don't really get what's "scary" about it.

Speaking of this article, it's kind of strange that they report:  "Chinese scientists at the Shanghai Second Medical University in 2003 successfully fused human cells with rabbit eggs. The embryos were reportedly the first human-animal chimeras successfully created. They were allowed to develop for several days in a laboratory dish before the scientists destroyed the embryos to harvest their stem cells."

Because that ignores the success of ACT from 1999 that we just looked at.   But maybe ACT never published it and this is the first time such a thing was published in a journal?

I don't fully understand the mice with human brains thing they refer to vaguely, but the rest they describe here seems pretty benign to me.

Quote
Here's one hypothetical problem that's possible:
Quote
For example, an experiment that would raise concerns, he said, is genetically engineering mice to produce human sperm and eggs, then doing in vitro fertilization to produce a child whose parents are a pair of mice.

It says nobody would actually try to do that experiment, but I am not so sure. There have been scientists in the past that are willing to do the most unethical work.
   

Why would anyone do that?

Is there something to be gained from that?

And which scientists do you refer to?

One really good thing about science today (especially in America, but I'm sure western countries follow a similar model) is that the ethical-legal restraints are intertwined with the ability to do research.  The safeguards are in place, and if someone actually goes out of their way to violate them, one can be sure that they will be held accountable for it.  There will always be lawbreakers in no matter what field, but it doesn't make sense to blame the field or every participant in the field, and hamper in new ways those who are obeying the law, for *potential lawbreakers (who haven't really done their crimes yet, according to this view).    But the best system is to intertwine the proper restraints with funding and publication of research and the field's hierarchy so that it is not in one's interest to break the law or to serve as an example, and it's impossible to succeed in the field by crossing certain agreed upon boundaries.

As an example, an article I read recently said quite poignantly about the Bush "stem cell ban" of 2001 -  You can argue with the "ethics" or "values" that motivate this particular legislature, but you cannot call it "anti-science" or against the researchers... 
I certainly disagree strongly with that ban, but I agree that it's not "anti-science."   It's simply a mistaken ethics motivating it - ethical premises which need to be reevaluated.   But the notion of ethics guidelines putting limits on scientific research is certainly within reason and importantly "pro-science" as we should desire science to be carried out.    We can disagree on the ethics, but ethics in general do need to play a role, and in American research they definitely do.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2010, 01:54:03 PM »
I think we should be concerned about what chimeras could potentially be used for. I also feel that human life should be held in such high regard that there should not be deliberately created life forms that are part human and part animal. The only time I would even see this as being feasible would be if a skin graft was needed or replacement organ or something, but not creating a creature from scratch that's part human/part animal.

Just the idea that its theoretically possible (although not probable at this time) to create a human being from nonhuman parents like mice raises the possibility of creating a very sticky spiritual situation in the modern world. This would be the first time in history that an animal did not share the same species as its parents. What if this person grew up and had all the natural desires to find a husband or wife as anyone else, how would they be able to do that and not have something be very sinful about that! Would being a human developed from mice-produced human gametes make one technically an animal or a human spiritually?

What if it wasn't a mouse, but an animal of a similar size as a human that had a "100% human brain" that functioned the same way? Of course having a fully-functional human brain and having human DNA in the cells are two different things, but I can see that something like that might be possible. I can see potential uses for this, but it would be completely unethical.

A lot of the experiments the Nazis did didn't make a lot of sense either, but they were done out of utter depravity and a total lack of limits as to ethical guidelines. I think if a scientist had the funding, enough secrecy surrounding the work, and could come up with a rationale for doing the research, some would do this kind of thing just for the fact that it can be done.

Stalin wanted to create a half-man, half-ape super soldier, but this never happened but who knows what could happen in the future with the improved technology of today already being what it is.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2010, 02:12:49 PM »
I think whatever it was these military experts heard or saw that disabled the nuclear missiles may not be aliens, but maybe Russian made space crafts..or maybe even a US experiment.

I personally believe that Gd created the universe only for us earthlings.  I don't think there is other intelligent life out there. However, I do believe that there are worlds out there that might be suitable for earthlings to live on.

Now of course, if other intelligent life forms to come about, that doesn't mean I will stop believing in Gd.  I just means I made a wrong assumption.
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Offline White Israelite

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2010, 06:09:55 PM »


Ain't that the truth.

Offline White Israelite

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2010, 06:12:58 PM »
Ancient Egypt also documented UFO's





I think they do exist but I don't talk about it. I've seen some crazy stuff in the sky with my Orion telescope.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2010, 06:24:38 PM »
Re:  "I personally believe that Gd created the universe only for us earthlings.  I don't think there is other intelligent life out there. However, I do believe that there are worlds out there that might be suitable for earthlings to live on. "

At this very moment there's an alien in another galaxy addressing his race, saying:

"I personally believe that G-d created the entire universe only for us aliens on this planet and in this galaxy.  There is no other intelligent life.  There are, however, worlds like Earth, stocked with the beings we call "snacks walk erect two legs", which G-d, in his infinite Mercy, provided us so we can eat dinner tonight! 

Bwwwwaaaaaa ha ha ha ha!"      >:(    >:(    >:(

Offline cjd

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #37 on: September 28, 2010, 06:34:00 PM »
There may be other places in the universe with some form of  life.  I believe however G-d was smart enough to keep his science projects far enough apart so they don't cross contaminate each other.
He who overlooks one crime invites the commission of another.        Syrus.

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Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #38 on: September 28, 2010, 06:50:02 PM »
Is there intelligent life elsewhere in the universe ?

Probably. Almost certainly.

Do they board UFOs and visit the Earth ?

I doubt it.

Unless they've found a way to travel faster than the speed of light, or a way to bend space, it would take thousands of years to get here.

And if you spent that much time getting here, why not stop to say hello, have a cup of coffee and a danish ?

I guess the aliens prefer mutilating cattle, making crop circles, or abducting humans for medical experiments.

But who am I to speculate on what aliens might do ?

I mean, everyone thought Richard Dreyfuss was nuts in Close Encounters Of The Third Kind, and Speilberg showed us that he was right all along !

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2010, 12:58:33 AM »
A lot of the experiments the Nazis did didn't make a lot of sense either, but they were done out of utter depravity and a total lack of limits as to ethical guidelines. I think if a scientist had the funding, enough secrecy surrounding the work, and could come up with a rationale for doing the research, some would do this kind of thing just for the fact that it can be done.

The comparison to the nazis y''s is not valid.  They didn't have ethics committees and legal restraints or conditional funding.  Their program was anything goes and their evil so-called scientists carried out whatever they wanted.

That is not the system in place in America, therefore pointing to the nazis and saying we should worry about our current scientists, does not hold water.  Sorry.

Offline muman613

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2010, 01:27:43 AM »
A lot of the experiments the Nazis did didn't make a lot of sense either, but they were done out of utter depravity and a total lack of limits as to ethical guidelines. I think if a scientist had the funding, enough secrecy surrounding the work, and could come up with a rationale for doing the research, some would do this kind of thing just for the fact that it can be done.

The comparison to the nazis y''s is not valid.  They didn't have ethics committees and legal restraints or conditional funding.  Their program was anything goes and their evil so-called scientists carried out whatever they wanted.

That is not the system in place in America, therefore pointing to the nazis and saying we should worry about our current scientists, does not hold water.  Sorry.


KWRBT,

You seem to trust man way too much. The system is not etched in stone and relative morality always is a slippery slope. I agree with Rubystars that although currently it seems that things are being measured according to moral laws, there is no such guarantee that it will be that way in the future. It is always best to move forward cautiously lest we make a very large error.

Don't you think that the builders of the Tower of Babel had the noblest intentions? I know that they did, and their efforts ended up being against the wishes of Hashem. The rest is history.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2010, 01:32:14 AM »
I'm sorry I am digressing here, and if you think this is not relevant then please disregard it... I think it is relevant:



http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1013006/jewish/What-Was-Up-With-the-Tower-of-Babel.htm

What Was Up With the Tower of Babel?
By Menachem Posner

There are a number of fascinating explanations on the subject to be found in the classic commentaries. Let's begin with the Talmud (Sandhedrin 109a) where we find three traditions:

In the School of Rabbi Shila it was taught that they built the tower with the intention of piercing the heavens with axes to drain all the water held therein, making it impossible for G‑d to bring another flood, should they vex Him again. (Perhaps what's meant by this is that they had embraced their understanding of science and its workings to the extent that they felt they were now able to spar with G‑d on His turf—the heavens.)

Rabbi Yirmiya bar Elazar taught that there were actually three groups; each with its own plans for the tower: One group planned to climb the tower, safely out of harm's way, should another flood come. A second camp wanted to use it as a shrine for idol worship. Yet a third group actually wanted to use it as a platform from which to battle G‑d.

Rabbi Natan, on the other hand, taught that all of them intended to serve idols.

The Targum Yerushalmi explains that the tower was to be crowned by the form of a man holding a sword in his hand—an act of defiance against the G‑d whom they hoped to overcome.

An interesting teaching in the Midrash is that they were afraid that the heavens would collapse regularly every 1656 years like it did during the flood, which took place in the year 1656 from Creation, and they therefore decided to build a scaffolding to support it.

The Maharal (Rabbi Yehuda Lowe, 16th century rabbi of Prague) explains the Midrash and the teachings of the School of Rabbi Shila to mean that they saw the Flood as a natural occurrence that took place as a result of the movements of the celestial spheres and their positioning in the sky at the time of the Flood. The purpose of the tower was to somehow change what they perceived as the natural weather pattern.

Rabbi Obadiah Sforno (15th-16th Century) explains that their plan to place an idol on top of the tower was so that it would gain universal acclaim as the world's tallest shrine and greatest god, making it the center of worship for all—with the result that the one who ruled that city would rule all humankind.

Rabbeinu Bachya (13th-14th Century) gives a number of explanations. On an elementary level, he explains that their plan was to build a monument that would be seen from many miles around. They wanted to settle together, and decided that they would all remain within view of the tower and never stray from it. Anyone who strayed too far from the metropolis would have the tower to guide him back. This, however, was not G‑d's plan, since He created us to settle the world—all of it—and make it a better place.

He also suggests that they may have actually been creating the first lightning rod. They knew that G‑d had promised not to bring another flood, and feared that He would instead punish those who rebel with fire. They hoped that the tower would serve to divert any electrical storms that G‑d would send their way. (Note that Bachya lived many centuries before Franklin.)

The Netziv (Rabbi Naphtali Tzvi Yehuda Berlin, the19th century Rosh Yeshiva of the famed Volozhin Yeshiva) has a fascinating and very instructive view on their plan. He explains that they were the first social engineers—hoping to create a utopian society where all lived and thought as one. They feared that if some people would settle their own colonies and towns, they would develop their own cultures and unique modes of living. They wanted everyone to live in one controlled environment where they would be able to make sure that all remain culturally homogenous. The tower served as a base around which all people of their planned colony would settle—no one leaving its immediate environs. The problem with their plan was that it was the first step toward a tyrannical state where no individual expression would be tolerated, and G‑d split them into separate nations.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe once explained the episode as follows: They planned a tower which would be a monument to inspire commitment to their common goal—survival. They wanted to ""make for ourselves a name""—to ensure the continuity of the human race.

Where did they go wrong?

Precisely that was their error: they saw survival as an end in itself. Let us make a name for ourselves, they said; let us ensure that there will be future generations who will read of us in their history books. To them, life itself was an ideal, survival itself a virtue.

This was the beginning of the end. Nature abhors a vacuum, and this is true of spiritual realities as well: unless a soul or cause is filled with positive content, corruption will ultimately seep in. A hollow name and shrine soon becomes a tower of Babel.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2010, 05:00:00 AM »
I don't get how ufos and science has anything to do with the tower of babel
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

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Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2010, 06:05:29 AM »
A lot of the experiments the Nazis did didn't make a lot of sense either, but they were done out of utter depravity and a total lack of limits as to ethical guidelines. I think if a scientist had the funding, enough secrecy surrounding the work, and could come up with a rationale for doing the research, some would do this kind of thing just for the fact that it can be done.

The comparison to the nazis y''s is not valid.  They didn't have ethics committees and legal restraints or conditional funding.  Their program was anything goes and their evil so-called scientists carried out whatever they wanted.

That is not the system in place in America, therefore pointing to the nazis and saying we should worry about our current scientists, does not hold water.  Sorry.


I think the comparison is very valid, especially considering that America itself imported Nazis after the war to help in their science researches. If there is a defense reason for doing an unethical experiment, it will be done. Those laws you mention apply to regular scientists that would more than likely behave in an ethical manner anyway. Many unethical experiments have been done by our own government. That's not paranoia, that's history. As one example I give Project Bluebird (http://www.examiner.com/us-intelligence-in-national/cia-behavior-modification-project-bluebird).

To me, if anyone is saying that our government and others around the world no longer perform unethical experiments, then I think that's naive.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2010, 06:25:23 AM »


Ain't that the truth.

That about sums it up! I like the part with the batman symbol.  :::D

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #45 on: September 29, 2010, 07:36:11 AM »
You seem to trust man way too much. The system is not etched in stone and relative morality always is a slippery slope.

I sent KWRBT a link to a documentary and I hope other people would watch it as well.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5712544616311773685#

It talks about documented facts of what happened in CIA experiments and experiments on human beings (medical and psychological) that were going on in England, Canada, Germany, and the USA during the Cold War. I am almost certain that people are not more moral today than they were then, and our governments are no more trustworthy today than they were then. I am concerned about how science can be abused even though I absolutely love the good side of science, exploring the universe, discovery, helping people, etc. there is a real dark side to it too that has come out and more than likely still happens.

Quote
I agree with Rubystars that although currently it seems that things are being measured according to moral laws, there is no such guarantee that it will be that way in the future. It is always best to move forward cautiously lest we make a very large error.

Thanks Muman. I would go one step further and say that there are unethical scientists working even to this day on things that would shock people if they knew about it. Can I prove it? No. Why? Because they're working in secret of course. However I think history is a good guideline there. There are no good reasons that I know of to think that human nature and the nature of our governments have changed that much in the matter of a few decades.

Quote
Don't you think that the builders of the Tower of Babel had the noblest intentions? I know that they did, and their efforts ended up being against the wishes of Hashem. The rest is history.

I am no theologian, but I always thought they did it in order to commit the same sort of Sin that Adam and Eve committed, wanting to be like God. Some people don't even have noble intentions to begin with at all when they degrade into pure evil.

Offline MasterWolf1

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #46 on: September 29, 2010, 08:34:57 AM »
I seen Illegal Aliens,,, does that count? :P
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #47 on: September 29, 2010, 08:37:28 AM »
I seen Illegal Aliens,,, does that count? :P

If that mother plane the black nationalists are talking about is going to beam anyone up I wish it would be them and all their anchor baby spawn.

Offline MasterWolf1

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2010, 08:39:52 AM »
A little Alien on a mothership named Jose.. Flew over the border into California to pick lettuce, he got paid in pesos, brought drugs and 35 of his family members with him.. Ohhhhhhhhh.. You mean them green looking E.T. ones? Well I would take the green looking E.T. ones over the Joses
RIGHT WING AMERICAN AND PROUD OF IT. IF YOU WANTED TO PROVE YOU WEREN'T A "RACIST" IN 2008 BY VOTING FOR OBAMA, THEN PROVE IN 2012 YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT FOR VOTING AGAINST OBAMA!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: retired military experts to confirm ufo appearances
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2010, 08:43:03 AM »
A little Alien on a mothership named Jose.. Flew over the border into California to pick lettuce, he got paid in pesos, brought drugs and 35 of his family members with him.. Ohhhhhhhhh.. You mean them green looking E.T. ones? Well I would take the green looking E.T. ones over the Joses

I wonder if they can pick lettuce though.