Israel's Chief Scientist dismissed for doubting evolution & global warming

[wonga66]

  The geological strata lie perfectly flat upon each other, in smooth conformability, showing that they were laid down in quick succession without delay, not slowly over untold aeons.

Fossilisation does not occur today, and the very existence of perfectly preserved fossils implies swift mineralisation before the carcasses had time to decay. This can only be explained by catastrophic diluvial action and immediate burial under sediment ie. Noah's Flood.

The well known `Geological Column' of the text books (Cambrian,  Devonian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Miocene etc.etc.) looks neat, but in fact exists nowhere on earth. The earth's crust is actually one continuous bed of contemporaneous fossils, and its slicing `to order' to show supposed successive ages is arbitrary and fictitious.

[Rubystars]

The well known `Geological Column' of the text books (Cambrian,  Devonian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Miocene etc.etc.) looks neat, but in fact exists nowhere on earth.

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/geocolumn/#column

[Rubystars]

From the page:

They are wrong. You just saw the whole column piled up in one place where one oil well can drill through it. Not only that, the entire geologic column is found in 25 other basins around the world, piled up in proper order. These basins are:


The Ghadames Basin in Libya
The Beni Mellal Basin in Morrocco
The Tunisian Basin in Tunisia
The Oman Interior Basin in Oman
The Western Desert Basin in Egypt
The Adana Basin in Turkey
The Iskenderun Basin in Turkey
The Moesian Platform in Bulgaria
The Carpathian Basin in Poland
The Baltic Basin in the USSR
The Yeniseiy-Khatanga Basin in the USSR
The Farah Basin in Afghanistan
The Helmand Basin in Afghanistan
The Yazd-Kerman-Tabas Basin in Iran
The Manhai-Subei Basin in China
The Jiuxi Basin China
The Tung t'in - Yuan Shui Basin China
The Tarim Basin China
The Szechwan Basin China
The Yukon-Porcupine Province Alaska
The Williston Basin in North Dakota
The Tampico Embayment Mexico
The Bogata Basin Colombia
The Bonaparte Basin, Australia
The Beaufort Sea Basin/McKenzie River Delta

[stopimmigration]

Good ridance.Science is more accurate and his professor cannot prove is whacko beliefes then he should go.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

Good ridance.Science is more accurate and his professor cannot prove is whacko beliefes then he should go.

בס''ד

Ben Mizrachi from Bat Yam - you are the 16 year old Israeli Jew who wants to be a Nazi. You joined StørmFrønt, defended Hitler and the Nazis, called yourself an "Israeli fascist", and cursed G-d and Torah Judaism. What a sickness you are!

[wonga66]

“Some people believe in the Torah implicitly, but they believe in evolution too. Exactly how you reconcile evolution with the Torah, that’s not so easy! They do a lot of tongue-twisting to explain that. Later generations will look back and say 'you were meshuggah: how could believe in evolution and believe in the Chumash at the same time?!' ” (Rav Avigdor Miller, tape 871).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  unethical scientists

Why is there any reason for scientists to be governed by "morals"?

Science examines and tests all things, takes nothing for granted, and presumes to be looking at the world without any preconceptions imposed by philosophy, history, and religion.

This is the reason so many scientists conclude that only atheism is a valid viewpoint for someone seeking verifiable truths.

Scientists are restrained from exploring "any and all possibilities" only by other human beings who insist that "not everything is permissible in a moral and ethical society".

Those who insist that morality and ethics govern the conduct of scientific research and conduct believe (correctly) that mankind is incapable of establishing a just moral order, and understand that Morality can only be "revealed" and "demanded" by some Divine and Higher Consciousness ruling the Universe.

Because science can't "prove" the existence of a Supreme Being Consciousness, most scientists insist that mankind need only behave in a way that benefits mankind, either individually, or as a species, and this "life philosophy" they call "Ethical Humanism".

Ethical Humanism considers mankind the end all and be all of reality, and they believe that G-d is not required for a society to know what is right and wrong.

Ethical Humanists insist that people will treat other people well because otherwise man and society is harmed.

This "code for conduct" quickly is proven fallacious, because it allows scientists to rationalize their desire for conducting experimentation on other living human beings "in the interests of science!" --

I don't really think it's most scientists who believe in that manner, and I challenge you to provide a study which gives credence to your assertion.

I think most scientists acknowledge the need for morals to regulate the scientific endeavor and even most of the atheist scientists are against abusing humans "for the sake of science."

I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.

Personally I have yet to meet a scientist who believes in ethical humanism in the manner that makes anything permissible "for the sake of science" including cruel experimentation on humans etc.   And I have met many scientists thus far.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

“Some people believe in the Torah implicitly, but they believe in evolution too. Exactly how you reconcile evolution with the Torah, that’s not so easy! They do a lot of tongue-twisting to explain that. Later generations will look back and say 'you were meshuggah: how could believe in evolution and believe in the Chumash at the same time?!' ” (Rav Avigdor Miller, tape 871).

Many rabbis disagree with this.   There are many rabbis, some in the haredi camp, and more in the modern orthodox in America and religious zionist camp in Israel who disagree with what Rabbi Miller said.

I have already quoted Rav Kook who would disagree with a statement like this.

It is worth repeating here since you want to quote rabbis now.

Rav Avraham Yitzhak HaKohen Kook (1865-1935) ZT"L, the founder of the Merkaz HaRav religious zionist flagship yeshiva in Israel, first chief rabbi of the Palestine Mandate and probably the greatest Posek and greatest thinker of his generation gave the following thoughts about evolution within his writings:

"The theory of evolution (hitpattehut) is increasingly conquering the world at this time, and, more so than all other philosophical theories, conforms to the kabbalistic secrets of the world. Evolution, which proceeds on a path of ascendancy, provides an optimistic foundation for the world. How is it possible to despair at a time when we see that everything evolves and ascends? When we penetrate the inner meaning of ascending evolution, we find in it the divine element shining with absolute brilliance. It is precisely the Ein Sof in actu which manages to bring to realization that which is Ein Sof in potentia." (Kook, Orot Hakodesh II:537)

"Even if it were clear to us that the order of creation was through the evolution of the species, there would still be no contradiction. We calculate time according to the literal sense of the biblical verses, which is far more relevant to us than is ancient history .... The Torah obviously obscures the account of creation and speaks in allusions and parables. Everyone knows that the account of creation is part of the secrets of the Torah. And if all these statements were taken literally, what secrets would there be? ... The essence [of the Genesis narrative] is the knowledge of G-d and the truly moral life." (Letters of Rav Kook, Letter 91.)

Taken from http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Science/Creationism_and_Evolution/Kabbalah/Rav_Kook.shtml

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Rabbi Miller was right, future generations will look back on evolutionary theory on origins just like they look back on the theory that the universe had always existed and laugh at the evolution believers. 

And yes, I want to bet.

Do you claim that the earth is 6000 years old?!

[wonga66]

“Those well meaning persons who felt impelled to interpret certain passages in the Torah differently from the time-honoured tradition, did so only in the mistaken belief that the Torah view on the age of the world was at variance with science; otherwise they would not have sought new interpretations in the Torah. There is no need to seek new reinterpretations in the Torah to 'reconcile' them with science” (Lubavitcher Rebbe).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

“Those well meaning persons who felt impelled to interpret certain passages in the Torah differently from the time-honoured tradition, did so only in the mistaken belief that the Torah view on the age of the world was at variance with science; otherwise they would not have sought new interpretations in the Torah. There is no need to seek new reinterpretations in the Torah to 'reconcile' them with science” (Lubavitcher Rebbe).

But this was said by a Rabbi who believed that the science supports a 6000 years old world, which it DOES NOT.    And it's a rabbi who believed that the science supports a geocentric universe, which it DOES NOT.   So while this rabbi is credible in other issues and has many valuable things to say, this type of statement can't be much use to people.

[Rubystars]

The only way I could ever believe in a 6000 year old earth and geocentric universe is if I completely lost my memory of all the scientific facts I've ever learned.

[wonga66]

For those to whom this subject is an unsurmountable mental stumbling block, Professor Gerald Schroeder has shown that according Einstein the universe can be both 6000 years and 16 billion years old, and also simultaneously geocentric and heliocentric, all at the same time, all fully in accordance with current scientific thinking!

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "For those to whom this subject is an unsurmountable mental stumbling block, Professor Gerald Schroeder has shown that according Einstein the universe can be both 6000 years and 16 billion years old, and also simultaneously geocentric and heliocentric, all at the same time, all fully  in accordance with current scientific thinking!

Thank you, wonga66!

This is the exact truth of Torah.

Only the most crass ignoramuses are capable of insisting that the years and days described in Torah are identical to those used today IN ACCORD TO THEIR OWN MODERN UNDERSTANDING OF "TIME" BASED ON A LUNAR CALENDARS, JULIAN CALENDAR, GREGORIAN CALENDAR, OR ANY OTHER SUCH ARTIFICIAL DEVICE OF MAN.

And not only that, but Genesis is in complete accord with each and every new understanding such as quantum physics and the string theory.

Natural Laws governing the Universe, as we know them today, existed in far different forms long ago, so that electromagnetics, sonics, acoustics, time, and virtually everything else would be considered incomprehensible to us today.

The same goes for the movements of the celestial spheres within their planes - one "orbit" was not necessarily the same time span as we know it to be in 2010.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Good ridance.Science is more accurate and his professor cannot prove is whacko beliefes then he should go.

The one who should go is you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The only way I could ever believe in a 6000 year old earth and geocentric universe is if I completely lost my memory of all the scientific facts I've ever learned.

I'm sure there are some over-anxious pietists like wonga who will try to go around with men-in-black style memory erasers.

[MassuhDGoodName]

If all those basins are stacked up on each other like that somebody should use some Drano on them!

[Debbie Shafer]

I cannot believe that learned people fall for these theories.   Global warming is the new religion, and Man was created by God, and did not evolve from an ape.   You have to have a screw loose to believe what the Left tells you.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "For those to whom this subject is an unsurmountable mental stumbling block, Professor Gerald Schroeder has shown that according Einstein the universe can be both 6000 years and 16 billion years old, and also simultaneously geocentric and heliocentric, all at the same time, all fully  in accordance with current scientific thinking!

Thank you, wonga66!

This is the exact truth of Torah.

Gee, that sounds a lot different than the "truth" he presented before that you consented to...

 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "I challenge you to provide a study which gives credence to your assertion."

There were several such studies, but the scientists destroyed all of them to silence dissent!   

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I find it very odd indeed that wonga now presents Gerald Shroeder's point of view here because Shroeder gives credence to the scientific view of an old universe and reconciles that by elaborating on a dichotomy between man and God's perspective in order to reconcile it with the Bereshith account.   Up until now, wonga was intent on denying scientific conclusions.

While the overall point and scheme of Shroeder's work is true in the sense that science and Torah do not contradict each other, I disagree strongly with his explanations of Torah, and according to my rabbi who is a physicist, his physics also leave something to desire, but I can't really comment on that.  It does seem very complicated and impressive.    As for the Torah that he presents, however, while it's true that Torah and science are not a contradiction, I completely disagree with his presentation of "The Big Bang" as being the creation of the universe.    The Big Bang, whatever one wants to say it was (beginning of the universe, or if one thinks like many physicists that it was only one in a series of universes) is NOT creation ex nihilo.   The Big Bang occurred according to scientific laws including Einstein's equations and time and space existed (along with matter) prior to.   Real creation ex nihilo means that literally nothing existed before the world was created.

All that said, The Moreh Nevuchim and the Kuzari both assert that one adheres to kosher Jewish belief if adopting the Platonic model, which I feel Shroeder's work actually represents.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It seems to me there are 3 basic approaches to this issue.

1.  There are people who are either ignorant of scientific knowledge or - like wonga - insist on denying scientific findings.  Therefore, there is nothing to reconcile and no question to be asked about Bereshith.   And thus Bereshith will be taken literally and/or figuratively in given places depending on the given approach of the rabbinic sources adopted by the individual/rabbi.

2.  Gerald Shroeder's approach which is basically like a "have your cake and eat it to" type of scenario because it sort of allows one to take Bereshith literally while at the same time accepting scientific fact.  I think this is more of a neo-platonic view of the origin of the universe, but that is nonetheless a permitted belief.

3.  The third approach is that scientific facts contradict the literal rendering of Bereshith and therefore to fully understand the text requires that the text itself implements allegory, metaphor, and other literary devices in its explanation and various messages.  This can then reconcile what is being said with what else we know to be true from science.   In this approach, the spiritual message behind Bereshith is more critically important, and since the Torah is not a science textbook, it is not expected to include scientific facts or explanations.

[wonga66]

Your number 3 sounds more like kefirah to me!

Do you lay Tefillin every day?

What meaning does 5771 and its preceding Six Days have for you?

[Rubystars]

For those to whom this subject is an unsurmountable mental stumbling block, Professor Gerald Schroeder has shown that according Einstein the universe can be both 6000 years and 16 billion years old, and also simultaneously geocentric and heliocentric, all at the same time, all fully in accordance with current scientific thinking!

  So if all else fails, we're both right?

[wonga66]

That is the strength and weakness of the Theory of Relativity: it is the great "democratizer" of science - the "great leveller of all scientific playing fields"! Everything is Relative! All opinions are equally valid! There are no Absolutes!

Of course, should Relativity ever be shown to be incorrect, which quite a few scientists believe is so, then it's back to Abolutism: in which case the zero-velocity results of all the Michelson-Morley-type experiments that failed to detect any velocity for the Earth are real, not apparent, and the Torah's geocentric paradigm of a stationary Earth is actually favoured, as is its recent Creation!