The Wicked and the Righteous

[Daniel]

PARASHAT NOACH
SHABBAT UNPLUGGED
October 8, 2010 / 1 Cheshvan 5771
“The Wicked and the Righteous”

   I don’t know about you. But for me, there are moments where things that at least seem to be unconnected happen together, in succession, in just such a way, that it can’t have been mere coincidence. It must have been meant to be.
   In the week immediately following the suicide of Rutgers student Tyler Clementi, I found myself particularly moved by the most recent episode of the hit show Glee. The usually irreverent and silly comedy veered into uncharted waters, tackling the difficult and emotionally-charged topic of faith. For Curt, the openly-gay young man whose father lay in a coma following a heart attack, the answer was obvious. After Mercedes’ attempt to awaken a faith within him she hoped and merely been lying dormant, Curt says to her, “Thank you, Mercedes, your voice is stunning. But I don’t believe in God.” He goes on, “I think God is kinda like Santa Claus for adults. Otherwise, God’s kind of a jerk, isn’t he? I mean, he makes me gay and then has his followers going around telling me it’s something I chose, as if someone would choose to be mocked every single day of their life. And right now I don’t want a heavenly father; I want my real one back.”
   And, though I had thought about it before—how absurd it is to claim that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, to be picked from a drop-down menu of personal adjectives on Facebook like our religious or political affiliations—this really hit me hard. This was the everyday life of Tyler Clementi—the taunting, the teasing, the threats of violence in this world and eternal damnation in the next; the mean-spirited pranks of those with insecurities and webcams. And this last one was the straw that simply broke whatever was left of his will to live.
   I am crushed, I am devastated. And I am angry. I feel perhaps an inkling of what God felt when looking at the world in this week’s Torah portion. We read, “The earth became corrupt before God; the earth was filled with violence, and when God saw how corrupt the earth was, how every being was acting in a corrupt way, God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me…and I am going to wipe them off the earth…I am going to bring the floodwaters upon the earth to destroy all that lives under the heavens, all that has the breath of life in it. Everything on earth shall expire. With you, though, I will establish my Covenant.”
   I want, like God, to wipe out the wickedness, the terror, the cruelty that infects and invades like a virus, tearing down anything and everything in its midst. I want all of it gone, eradicated from the face of the earth, never to be seen or heard from again. I want to confront every perpetrator of hate crimes face-to-face—the Laramie who tied Matthew Sheppard to a tree and clubbed him to death; the fiends in Brooklyn who beat a young Ecuadorian man to death because they thought he was gay.
   But in the end, that’s not how we beat this. That’s not how we, to use a biblical phrase, sweep out evil from the world. No. The way to fight the hate, the wickedness, the cruelty, is through openness, acceptance, support, and love. And that point was driven home this week in an open letter written by Andy Bachman, rabbi at Beth Elohim in Brooklyn and a man for whom I have the utmost of admiration and respect. And because there is no way I could have said it better myself, allow me to read some of it here with you tonight.
   In a letter addressed “to the young people in our community,” he wrote:

   “I want to address you directly, whoever you may be. If you’re gay or straight or bi or transgender of you just don’t know, as a rabbi in the community, I care about you as a person made in the image of God. It really truly doesn’t matter what other people think about your struggle to be who you are in the process of becoming.
   
   “At our synagogue, in our community, and hopefully in each and every one of our homes, what matters is that you are welcome to be who you are. And during a confusing time like this, when a young person takes his own life because the pain and suffering of having been humiliated is beyond what he can bear, you need to know that no matter how badly you may feel about things going on in your own life, you always have someone to talk to, a community that will accept you, support you, and love you for who you are.

   “Tyler Clementi took his own life in part because we still live in an imperfect world that judges people and attempts to hurt people, even kill people, for being lesbian, gay, bi or transgender. That’s sick, I know. It’s morally grotesque that we live in such a world that would harm people because of who they would love. But you know what? There are actually more people in the world who support your right to be who you are than not. It may not seem that way, sometimes. You may feel an incredible loneliness or confusion or anger at being different. But in our synagogue and in our community and in our schools, we accept you and want you to always feel welcome and protected and honored and respected and loved.

   “I’m straight. But did you know that the man who told me to go be a rabbi was gay? And did you know that during my first year in rabbinical school my Israeli roommate was gay? I have a gay step-brother. And lots of gay and lesbian and bi and transgender friends. We all do. Some came out easily; others struggled for years; still other are still in the closet. That’s because we live in a society that still doesn’t accept sexual diversity so easily. Yet, one day maybe, we’ll be able to say, “Who cares? It doesn’t matter!” But because prejudice and bigotry about sexuality still exist, the point of that is to say that when a young man takes his life in the way that Tyler Clementi did, we are all affected. We are all connected, whether we attempt to deny it or not. And as the Jewish tradition teaches, we are all responsible for one another. Which means that if you’re reading this and you’re sad or angry or confused or devastated or scared and you need someone to talk to, be in touch. And always remember that you have a rabbi and a community who care about you and accept you for who you are, no matter what.

In friendship, Rabbi Andy Bachman”

Rabbi Bachman’s words ring true for me as your rabbi, as your friend. Whoever you are, whatever you are, you have a place here, and it is and always will be a safe one.
   In our portion we are told that "et ha-Elohim hithalech Noach", that Noah walked with God. My friends, we walk with God when we walk with each other, hand-in-hand, connected as we know all of our destinies are. We walk with God when we remember, and live our lives by the most basic of Jewish teachings, that "every single one of us" is created "b’tzelem Elohim", in the image of God.

   AMEN.

[muman613]

You realize that one of the primary reasons for the destuction of the flood was sexual immorality? I dont see how one can use Parasha Noach to justify abominable behavior any more than one can use it to justify theft or idolatry. It is clear why the world was destroyed, because it was so currupted sexually that the animals even became perverted.

I really wonder when people try to use Torah to justify abominable behavior. It is not acceptable.

People must learn to restrain their bad impulses and strengthen their desires to do good in the eyes of Hashem. While it is certainly true we all are created in the image of G-d, what we do with what we are given is what we are judged for. And it is wrong to say that we should no judge others. Hashem asks us to judge good and evil and to choose to do good.

I am sorry Danny boy, but this kind of Torah just doesn't fly. Certainly gays have a great challenge in life, just like I have been challenged in life. Some of us struggle with drug addiction, some with alcohol addiction, and many with anger issues.... But all of these must be restrained and turned toward a good outlet. The gay lifestyle is expressly forbidden by Torah, and there is no Torah justification for it..

[Dr. Dan]

Fake "rabbi" probably also supports Israel's suicide retreats and Islamic rights.

[Chai]

In Bet-keneset. Man in front asked what Chap are we in the Torah reading?
Grumpy old man behind me...Loudly ....THE ONE WITH THE DELUGE !

Me;

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

You realize that one of the primary reasons for the destuction of the flood was sexual immorality?

Actually that's not accurate. It was more because of the Hammas/Gezel (theft) and lack of care for your fellow resident (which also includes the first etsablishment of the "live and let live" Liberal principle, that justified every kind of immorality as long as it was in private).

But it's just hilariously hypocritical for a faggot lover to try and speak in the name of the Torah bringing an article written possibly by a Reform pig (?).

[muman613]

You realize that one of the primary reasons for the destuction of the flood was sexual immorality?

Actually that's not accurate. It was more because of the Hammas/Gezel (theft) and lack of care for your fellow resident (which also includes the first etsablishment of the "live and let live" Liberal principle, that justified every kind of immorality as long as it was in private).

But it's just hilariously hypocritical for a faggot lover to try and speak in the name of the Torah bringing an article written possibly by a Reform pig (?).

Yes, the simple meaning of the verses discuss only the theft but the Talmud discusses other reasons...

Here is an OU article which discusses this:

http://www.ou.org/torah/ti/5758/noach58.htm

Torah Insights for Shabbat Parshat Noach 5758
November 1, 1997

The Almighty is an Av Harachaman, a Merciful Father, who sustains the whole world. We turn to Him, especially during times of crisis, to show us His mercy and compassion. Yet Hashem destroyed the world in the days of Noah "because all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth."

How terrible was their corruption that G-d could not tolerate it?

Rabbi Eliyahu Ki Tov describes the behavior of that generation as told in the Midrash. The people "wanted to build a world that was entirely evil and allowed a person maximum pleasure and benefit for the present and the future."

They wanted to live only for their own pleasure and joy, and so they freed their consciences not by simply sinning but by enacting laws that made sinning mandatory. Their society didn't tolerate sinning, it insisted on it.

First, they did away with clothing. As the climate in those days was warm, the only reason people wore clothes was out of modesty, and so "they went and stripped themselves of all boundaries of modesty in clothing. The leaders initiated and were followed by the rest of the nation."

What followed was a free-for-all. Once they lost their modesty, they were able to abandon all the rules of sexual morality. Men and women freely exchanged partners. Homosexuality was rampant and bestiality became the fashion. Marriage contracts were made between males and also between humans and animals.

Our Sages teach that Hashem is slow to anger except when it comes to acts of sexual immorality. Noah's generation crossed that line by leaps and bounds.

But, why didn't Noach pray to G-d on behalf of the people as Avraham and Moshe did in later generations?

The Zohar explains. When Noach left the ark he saw a world destroyed. Nothing was left--no trees, no vegetation, no animals, no human beings. Everything gone. "Master of the world," he cried, "You are merciful and compassionate. Why didn't you show compassion to your creations?"

The Almighty responded, "Noach, why didn't you say this to me when I said, 'I have found you to be a tzaddik, a righteous person in this generation', and afterwards, when I said, 'I am bringing a flood, make for yourself an ark.' I said all of these things to you, Noach, hoping that you would petition me for mercy on the world! When you heard that you would be saved, you didn't think of saving others. You just entered the Ark. Now that the world is wasted, you come with petitions!"

Why didn't Noach appeal to G-d before it was too late?

Rabbi Ki Tov answers. Noach believed that the people of his time were too far gone. They were beyond salvation. They had no respect for their own humanity or for that of others. Among all those who lived in his time, Noach could not find even a minyan of good people.

Nonetheless, for all their evil, Hashem takes Noach to task for not defending them, for not taking their case.

One lesson of this parshah is that we have no right to give up on people. Even if we believe they are beyond salvation, we must still extend a helping hand and pray to G-d for their salvation.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

If homosexuality was a good thing HaShem would not have called it a prohibit abomination.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "If homosexuality was a good thing HaShem would not have called it a prohibit abomination. "

Seems to me like it would've made a lot more sense for Ha'Shem to create man which only would do the will and command of his Creator!

Why would he go to all the trouble to create something which has mostly wreaked havoc on this planet and on his fellow man?

(NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO ANSWER WITH "Because he wanted man to have "Free Will" ")

Because if you do I will answer you with "But why would a Perfect Being do something so stupid as to give free will to an irresponsible, violent prone, and power mad species of sexual deviants?"

It seems to me that to create things and then tell some of those things  "If you behave x and y that is an abomination to Me!",  then the only possible thing to do is ask of the Creator, "Then why did you create us with the biological urges and the thoughts which would enable us to act out those possibilities?" ... "Because, You KNEW when you created us we would act out all these abominations, so isn't it actually You responsible for all the problems on Earth, and not those of us whom You created?"

Haven't any of you assembled a model airplane or built something, and when it didn't come out just perfect the first time you destroyed it and started over again?

I mean, what's with all the wars, suffering, diseases, famines, broken homes, sexual deviancy and crimes, just so in the end only a few thousand pious devout Torah scholars will be allowed to enter the World to Come, and all the rest - the billions and billions of men and women whom He created which have lived and walked the Earth, will be destroyed or burned in Hellfire for Eternity?

Seems to me like a big waste of time and energy, especially for an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Merciful, and Loving Supreme Being!

[muman613]

Re:  "If homosexuality was a good thing HaShem would not have called it a prohibit abomination. "

Seems to me like it would've made a lot more sense for Ha'Shem to create man which only would do the will and command of his Creator!

Why would he go to all the trouble to create something which has mostly wreaked havoc on this planet and on his fellow man?

(NO ONE IS ALLOWED TO ANSWER WITH "Because he wanted man to have "Free Will" ")

Because if you do I will answer you with "But why would a Perfect Being do something so stupid as to give free will to an irresponsible, violent prone, and power mad species of sexual deviants?"

It seems to me that to create things and then tell some of those things  "If you behave x and y that is an abomination to Me!",  then the only possible thing to do is ask of the Creator, "Then why did you create us with the biological urges and the thoughts which would enable us to act out those possibilities?" ... "Because, You KNEW when you created us we would act out all these abominations, so isn't it actually You responsible for all the problems on Earth, and not those of us whom You created?"

Haven't any of you assembled a model airplane or built something, and when it didn't come out just perfect the first time you destroyed it and started over again?

I mean, what's with all the wars, suffering, diseases, famines, broken homes, sexual deviancy and crimes, just so in the end only a few thousand pious devout Torah scholars will be allowed to enter the World to Come, and all the rest - the billions and billions of men and women whom He created which have lived and walked the Earth, will be destroyed or burned in Hellfire for Eternity?

Seems to me like a big waste of time and energy, especially for an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Merciful, and Loving Supreme Being!

Some of your questions are answered by the Aish.com article:

http://www.aish.com/sp/ph/48956911.html
The Meaning of "Adam":Insights into the Hebrew Language
by Rabbi Doniel Baron

The potential to sink lower than the animals and higher than the angels.

The first human ever to walk the earth was named Adam. The Torah explains the name. The Hebrew word for earth is adama. G-d formed man from the dust of the earth, and on the simplest level, that connection with adama, earth, is the basis for man's name. Once Adam sinned and ate the forbidden fruit, he introduced death to the world and was sentenced to once again return to the earth from which G-d created him.

The mystics pointed to various deeper meanings within the name Adam, providing layers of insight that can make our own existence more meaningful. The name Adam does indicate one's lower earthly nature. But are we really nothing more than the complicated mammals?

The Earth's Potential

In addition to the adama being a low place in the world, there is another aspect of the adama which is perhaps its defining feature. The earth is a realm in which we can plant and yield fruits, giving rise to new life which was not there beforehand. Man's kinship with the ground, therefore, hints to his greatest potential.

    Man's kinship with the ground hints to his greatest potential.

Before creating Adam, G-d said, "Let us make man" in the plural. With whom could G-d possibly partner when creating humankind? According to one approach, He consulted with His ministering angels and asked them what they thought about creating man. A fierce debate ensued.

Some of the angels argued against creating man and others in favor. For example, the angel representing kindness was for man's creation, for man bestows kindness. Truth opposed man's creation, since humans are full of lies. G-d heard these arguments, and finally seized the angel representing truth and hurled it onto the ground, as it says in the verse, "and He threw truth to the ground" and created man anyway. The other angels protested. How could G-d abandon truth, which is known as His signature? G-d responded "may truth rise from the ground" and our Sages then cited the verse, "truth shall grow from the ground."

The whole dialogue in the heavens appears bizarre at first glance. Why did G-d need to consult with His angels before creating man? Why did He reject truth in order to create Adam? Were the angels negotiating with Him? How did they convince Him to revive the angel of truth? Did He really change his mind? A core tenet of Jewish consciousness is that when the rabbis tell stories like this one, they really mean to convey a deeper message hidden deep within the parable.

The Maharal of Prague explained that throwing truth to the ground was by no means a rejection of truth. It was an investment in truth. The proof is in the verse our Sages used to explain the revival of truth: "truth shall grow from the ground." G-d never rejected truth; instead He planted in the ground.

The metaphor of the ground and its centrality in man's name is no coincidence. The simple act of planting a seed is a powerful symbol of man's potential. Recall that day in kindergarten where you might have planted a bean in a plastic cup so that it would grow into a plant for mother's day. Every day you checked to see whether anything had grown. At first, you were disappointed as you watched the seed. It looked like it was falling apart and rotting. You wanted to throw it out, but your teacher insisted that you wait. One day, a green shoot appeared from amidst the smelly decay. It continued to grow and grow, until there was a beautiful leafy plant, with the potential for an infinite number of new plants.

Therein lies the secret of G-d's sowing truth. There is a very physical side to every human, but and often it brings us to places of rot and decay, places in which we can wreak more havoc on creation than the most destructive animal. Yet we also have the ability to transcend that downward pull and grow from the earth into something greater with almost unlimited potential.

There were angels that opposed man's creation. The angel representing truth argued that humans lie, and they have the potential to destroy the world. In contrast, angels are perfect. An angel is the manifestation of G-d's will, and is completely unable to deviate even an iota from that will. An angel has a name that reflects its mission since that is all the angel is. Angels cannot choose to disobey and have no minds of their own.

    Like the ground, man can produce a virtually unlimited bounty of fruits.

Humans, however, have free choice. Every person has the ability to decompose and succumb to the earthly pull, or to defy the gravity of physicality and elect to follow more spiritual pursuits. Like the ground, man can produce a virtually unlimited bounty of fruits. Man's decision to live on a higher plane is infinitely more meaningful than an angel's spiritual existence since it is the result of man's choice and rejection his lower self, or his channeling it to a higher place. We all have ups and downs, but we can choose the realm with which we most identify and whether or not we will bounce back after we have fallen.

Control or be Controlled

The name Adam alludes to man's ability to transcend on an even deeper level. The word Adam is comprised of the letter aleph, followed by dalet and mem, the letters than spell the word dam which means blood. We need blood to sustain physical life, but it reflects the lower aspects of man. Blood has long been associated with hot temperament and loss of self control. Shakespeare described one of his quick tempered characters as "governed by a spleen," an internal organ containing a reservoir of blood. The lowest aspect of one's soul, an aspect of soul common to every animal, resides in one's blood.

In the name Adam, the word dam is preceded by the letter aleph. The letter aleph is also a word which means to teach or inculcate. It similarly indicates leadership, as implied by the related word aluf which means a general or tribal head. G-d created man with many base desires that reside in the blood, but he also gave us the means to assert our control over them and be an aluf over the dam. By being in control instead of subject to the dominion of our impulses, man, who is created in the image of G-d, resembles G-d. In this connection, the name Adam also alludes to the word adameh which means I will liken myself, indicating one's ability to emulate G-d.

From Eternity to Death and Back

Adam himself represented man's colossal potential, as well as how far he could fall. Adam's understanding of the world was vast, and his dominion complete until he ate from the forbidden fruit. G-d created Adam to be immortal, something that remains true of the soul, but not of the body. Adam himself succumbed to the dam in his name, and failed to rule over his inclination. He introduced death into the world, something which had not applied to human beings before that point in time. Yet although he shrank in stature, elements of the higher Adam, the potential for accomplishing greatness, remained.

Adam lived for 930 years. Our Sages explained that he really should have lived for a complete millennium, but he willingly gave up 70 years of his life to someone who would use them to reverse the death sentence that Adam had introduced to mankind. Adam prophetically saw that a potential descendent of his to be born thousands of years later had not been allocated years and he sacrificed 70 of his own so that person would live.

The recipient of those years was none other than King David, the scion of the messianic line which will usher in the end of time. Our tradition teaches that the Moshiach will help bring the world to its perfection and toward revival of the dead, reversing Adam's colossal mistake. Adam knew this, and realized that it was critical for him to ensure that King David would live and accomplish his task in the world. Adam had brought death to the world, and to correct that, he ensured that there would be someone to bring us back to eternal life.

    By confronting our lower aspects and overcoming them, we can accomplish things that no angel can.

The name Adam is therefore revealing. It describes our lower side, the tremendous downward pull and animal instinct within each of us. But it also alludes to our ability to become great -- not in spite of our physical side but because of it and through our resisting its desires. By confronting our lower aspects and overcoming them, we can accomplish things that no angel can. Through our earthy nature, we are planted and have the opportunity to produce fruits through rising from the decay and becoming more than we were beforehand. The choice is ours. We can be governed by our blood impulses, as was Eisav in the Torah who killed when he did not get what he wanted and was therefore called Edom, red, alluding to his being controlled by blood instinct, or we can become stronger and loftier, remaining in control of our destinies as we always subjugate the dam in Adam to the aleph that precedes it.

Upright posture distinguishes humans from other beings, and that characteristic reflects more than just an anatomical difference. Unlike other mammals which look naturally down and connect to only their instinctual and physical nature, humans stand up straight and look ahead. We can choose whether to look up, to grow from the ground, or look down, and sentence ourselves to a life dominated by our lower side. Each one of us is created in the image of G-d with unbelievable potential, and the name Adam alludes to the pitfalls we must avoid, and the tremendous growth we can experience.

PS: This line is 'precious' :

Seems to me like a big waste of time and energy, especially for an Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Merciful, and Loving Supreme Being!

It is funny because to Hashem there is no such thing as a 'waste of time and energy' because Hashem is not constrained by time nor energy...

I also find this paragraph funny:

I mean, what's with all the wars, suffering, diseases, famines, broken homes, sexual deviancy and crimes, just so in the end only a few thousand pious devout Torah scholars will be allowed to enter the World to Come, and all the rest - the billions and billions of men and women whom He created which have lived and walked the Earth, will be destroyed or burned in Hellfire for Eternity?

This sounds like a Christian idea. Jews do not believe in burning in hell for eternity... We believe in Gilgul {soul reincarnation} and or spending up to 11 months in Gehinnom to purify our souls... Only those who are very heiniously evil will spend a long time in gehinnom.

http://www.torah.org/qanda/seequanda.php?id=680

Gehinnom is the name given to Hell in the Rabbinic literature. The name was borrowed from that of a real valley (see Joshua 15:2,8 and 18:16; 2 Kings 23:10; 2 Chron.28:3 and 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31-32 and 19:2,6; Nehemiah 11:30) where burnings took place. See also Isaiah 30:33; Jeremiah 19:11-13; Job 17:6. Punishment in Gehinnom lasts only for up to 12 months, except for certain major sinners. Isaiah 66:24 must be referring to it when he speaks of the fire that is not extinguished.

[AsheDina]

You are using Bolshevik tactics, Daniel to prove left wing talking points, instead of looking into the souls of people to bring them out of possible hell on earth.  Homosexuality is HELL. I know this because I am in the entertainment business.

Homosexuality is an abomination, it is not just a sin, it is ABOMINABLE to HaShem- there is NO amount of pacifying and appeasing this lifestyle that is going to change G-ds ideas and what he has told the Jewish people.

I saw what you said in another post, that we were the 'cause' or part of some conspiracy, that this gay kid killed himself.

This 13 yr old murdered himself because NOBODY had the GUTTS to tell him the truth. 

I have had NUMEROUS friends that were/are 'gay'.  I do not EVER forsake what I know is right to appease abomination. Neither should you.  Stop being weak, this world needs stronger men to stand for RIGHT and not cower to wrong.

NOBODY says that I cannot still love my friends that are WRONG, but it is Chillul HaShem to NOT tell TRUTH.

You are getting sick thinking that standing up to the Orthodox Jews on this forum and telling them that they are wrong in what they know is RIGHT.  They are in the right, and you are NOT.  It is you that is in need of the TOLERENCE of G-ds Laws, and you rebuking Torah abiding Jews is going to bring you evil.  You need to repent to these people.

Isaiah 5: 20כ  הוֹי הָאֹמְרִים לָרַע טוֹב, וְלַטּוֹב רָע:  שָׂמִים חֹשֶׁךְ לְאוֹר וְאוֹר לְחֹשֶׁךְ, שָׂמִים מַר לְמָתוֹק וּמָתוֹק לְמָר.  {ס}  20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that change darkness into light, and light into darkness; that change bitter into sweet, and sweet into bitter! {S} 

HaShem is saying WOE TO YOU, Daniel.  NOT the vc versa, your argument is with HaShem, and you are persecuting and being fascistic about your DIS BELIEF in G-d..

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "spending up to 11 months in Gehinnom to purify our souls.

You can suffer more for a lot less money by spending just two weeks at the Motel 6 in Reform, Alabama.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Jews do not believe in burning in hell for eternity... We believe in Gilgul {soul reincarnation} and or spending up to 11 months in Gehinnom to purify our souls... Only those who are very heiniously evil will spend a long time in gehinnom.
"

muman613,
A few years ago a Lubavitcher Rabbi expressed to me that a decade in a Jerusalem yeshiva, followed by life at 770 for many years, had left him convinced that there were dozens of "Judaisms" being taught as dogma and practiced within the world of Jewry, and the situation was so bad that it was almost impossible for him to know what a Jew was supposed to be.  I thought his attitude very jaded, to say the least, and chalked it up to him having a 'bad day'.  But ever since, I have come closer and closer to that Rabbi's viewpoint.  After studying what is offered on all of the various Torah websites, glaring inconsistencies as to their understanding of Torah become ever more pronounced, as do their various positions taken in regard to their "support", or "lack of", for the Oslo Peace Process either in whole or in part.  I now more fully understand what Rabbi Kahane's article about Ha'Shem's regret for having caused the Exile was saying.  Because of our being scattered and powerless for close to two millenia, we now are clinging to a "second Torah":  The Torah of Exile - one full of all our varied experiences and increased knowledge learned while Exiled within the Gentile world.  We have lacked having the advantage of a unifying convention of Rabbis similar to the Christian Council of Nicea which consolidated and canonized NT scriptures and decided that which was, and was not, acceptable and true dogma.  While it is true that the Christian Great Schism also allowed great divisions to enter their community, our Jewish world has been divided into hundreds and hundreds of "great schisms", each with their own vision and version of Judaism, with no centralized authority and with no land to call Jewish Land.  Things are so divided and decentralized within Judaism that I first find out the views about nationalism and Oslo first, before I will continue to learn what they are teaching.  And even then, it's difficult to ascertain the "lip service" from the real deal.  I guess I've "beaten around the bush" just to comment on how many different Jewish absolute dogma of "what happens after you die" have been taught to me by various Torah mystics and Torah Masters.  Everything from all souls enter sheol and there is no "Heaven or Hell", to "transmigration of souls" to "the possibility of reincarnation of souls worthy to do such a thing", to absolute "zero" in a state of 'suspended nothingness' until Moshiach arrives and all dead miraculously are resurrected for Judgment, to you find yourself in a huge Hall:  The Heavenly Court! - and wait your turn in line until called up and face trial before Holy Elders and Angelic Beings, where witnesses for the prosecution as well as for the defense are called to give testimony, etc., and NOW TODAY FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME, MUMAN 613 INFORMS ME THAT JEWS BELIEVE IN 11 MONTHS MAX IN GEHINNOM (just like purgatory) UNLESS! UNLESS YOUR DEEDS ARE EGREGIOUS ONES - IN WHICH CASE EXTRA TIME IS ADDED ON!
Well muman613, you've just proved my point.  The Lubavitcher Rebbe taught his congregation that most souls would be destroyed permanently because they were incapable of being made holy by Ha'Shem, and this would result from 2/3 of the entire population of Earth being killed by the coming "Last Days" which would culminate in an invasion of Eretz Yisrael and Moshiach's arrival - not necessarily as I have written and described it, but basically that was it.
So...What is it that is the final definitive word as to that which all Jews believe and adhere to?
It's no wonder that so many people today are lost and ready to believe anything at all even things like how man was seeded here by aliens from space.

p.s.- worse, still, is the cynical way almost all of the various Yeshiva groups always have their hand out to ask for "donations" and offerings to keep their enterprise going.  It's human nature for people to only give money for those messages that they approve of hearing, so it stands to reason that over time the "dogma" is "reinterpreted" to find increasing "acceptability' by those carrying around the largest money bags.  Just my opinion.
p.s.s. - From the day I was born through my early adulthood, I was taught that "Moshiach" refers to a time way off in the vast future when science and knowledge will finally allow a world of brotherhood, love, and caring for one another - a world where none will go hungry, and all disease will have been cured, and that no intelligent Jew anymore believed that there was an actual "personage" of a Moshiach.  I was also taught that Israel was just another country someplace set up by the UN, "where Jews with no place to hide can run", and we all support it.  Now that I have become aware of what Torah itself says, I find that all those adamant about "Torah Truth" all themselves have a different interpretation and different dogma for me to unquestioningly accept if I don't want to face punishment!

[muman613]

Im sorry Massuh you have so much confusion. I have read many Jewish sources and I don't see so much disagreement.

The concept of Transmigration of Souls is taught by Chabad, as you can read about it here:

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380084/jewish/Returning-Lost-Souls.htm

Returning Lost Souls
Kabbalah explains that there are 3 major reasons for reincarnation.

from Shnei Luchot HaBrit by Rabbi Isaiah Horowitz

G-d, in His great pity for His creatures, has made thoughtful provisions so as not to totally cast out a sinner. This is why He established the principle of re-incarnation, or transmigration of souls. By allowing a soul to return to earth once more, it is given a "second chance" to rehabilitate itself and recapture its original place in the world of the spirits.

This principle of transmigration of souls is applied in three different ways, corresponding to the attributes in which our three patriarchs excelled respectively.

Abraham

Some souls do not return to earth because they have to rehabilitate themselves for positive commandments neglected, or for negative commandments which they transgressed when they were on earth previously. The only reason they return to earth is in order to perform acts of kindness for the people of their respective generations. Details of this are explained in Sefer Haflia, Sefer HaTumuna and Sefer Livnat Sapir. The Torah alludes to this in the verse: "And G-d passed over me for your sake." (Deut. 3:26) The Hebrew term for "pass over me", "avor", is compared to gilgul [reincarnation], both meaning a kind of "transfer". Moses [in the above verse] is in effect telling the Jewish people that his being transferred from this world at that time and place was for their own good. This parallels the attribute of kindness in which Abraham excelled.
Some souls are forced to undergo a second round of life in This World as …rehabilitation for sins committed in this life which cannot be atoned for in the purely spiritual regions….

Some souls are forced to undergo a second round of life in this world as a punishment, i.e. rehabilitation for sins committed in this life which cannot be atoned for in the purely spiritual regions. This is the way the King of Kings has arranged it. When one has broken a number of covenants, one may have to return to earth for each covenant one has broken during a previous life on earth. This is the mystical dimension of the deaths of infants or small children. They obviously did not commit a sin in their most recent incarnation, yet they may have to experience death a second time to expiate having broken G-d's covenant with Israel in a previous incarnation. All of this occurs when the sinner failed to repent properly while he lived on this earth. This is why it is appropriate even for a person who is not knowingly guilty of any major sins in his present life on earth to repent thoroughly for any sins he may have been guilty of in a previous incarnation and for which he had not then obtained forgiveness. If such a person engages in thorough repentance in this round of life on earth, the vicious circle of transmigration will be broken and his soul will find eternal rest in the Hereafter, not needing to return to life on this earth again.

Isaac

A different fate awaits those who have failed to take advantage of their third round of life on earth, as we know from the words of Elihu in Job (33:29). During the first two or three incarnations the souls are reincarnated in the bodies of human beings. If they have failed to rehabilitate themselves, they will be reincarnated as "pure" animals, i.e. the kind of animals fit for consumption by Jews; their eventual fate may be reincarnation as impure animals.
G-d arranges for the 'lost object' to be restored to its owner….

Anyone who has failed to understand Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai [the author of the above description in the Zohar] properly, believes that he explains that G-d puts ever greater distance between Himself and the sinner. In fact, the reverse is true; G-d arranges for the "lost object" to be restored to its owner. This kind of reincarnation is based on the attribute of fear, the outstanding characteristic of Isaac [meaning not relying on or appealing to G-d's attribute of Mercy. Ed.]

Jacob

The third category of transmigration provides an opportunity for the souls in question to perform those commandments which they had been unable to in a previous incarnation due to lack of opportunity. This kind of reincarnation could theoretically continue for one thousand generations under the aegis of the sefira of tiferet, the outstanding characteristic of Jacob. Thus far Rabbi Shlomo Alkabetz.

Some material on the Chassid dimension of Transmigration of Souls : http://www.hasidicstories.com/Articles/Themes_In_Hasidic_Stories/nigal_1transf.html

http://www.askmoses.com/en/article/189,2472598/Parashat-Bechukotai.html#articlepage

Furthermore, the reward seems to be blessings of material beneficence. And our sages have told us that the true reward for keeping G‑d’s commandments awaits us in the afterlife.

The explanation is that this passage alludes to the concept of transmigration of souls.

As you know, the soul is initially reincarnated in the mineral or vegetable kingdoms, and afterwards ascends into the animal kingdom, i.e., cattle. If it merits further, it ascends to the kingdom of man. Transmigration is the means by which the soul atones for the sins it committed in its first, human lifetime. In the words of the Arizal:

The soul descends to be incarnated into these lower forms of existence for the time allotted to it, as I (Rabbi Chaim Vital) have explained at length in my book recording the Arizal’s exposition on transmigration. In order to understand this concept more fully, we will interrupt the present citation from Sefer HaLikutim and quote from the work Rabbi Chaim Vital refers to:

Sha’ar HaGilgulim, introduction 22
There is almost no person on earth that is spared such transmigration. The wicked, after their death, enter Purgatory (gehinom) and receive their punishment and atonement there. Their judgment there lasts twelve months. Although the Arizal uses the term “punishment,” it is important to remember that the suffering the soul endures in gehinom (and in being reincarnated) is meant to “scour” or purify it from the spiritual filth that it accrued during its lifetime by transgressing the commandments of the Torah.
This purification process enables it to progress afterwards to higher levels of afterlife. Thus, the “punishment” is an expression of G‑d’s mercy, an opportunity for the soul to rid itself of the existential “encrustation” of sin that prevents it from experiencing the higher levels of spirituality that await it in reward for the good it performed during its lifetime. The suffering of the soul in gehinom can be alleviated by someone saying Kaddish for it. This is why the custom is to say kaddish for only eleven months after the person’s death: saying kaddish the full twelve months would imply that the individual was a completely wicked and requires the full term of purification in gehinom.

There is much more information out there concerning Gehinnom and Gilgul... It is my hope that reading this information will answer some questions...

[AsheDina]

Where in the Torah OR the Tanakh does it say 11 months?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Where in the Torah OR the Tanakh does it say 11 months? "

NEVER question muman613, AsheDina!

He knows more about Ha'Shem than someone like YOU could ever hope to know!

He also knows if those 11 months are by the Julian Calendar, or the Gregorian Calendar!

You're beginning to sound just like that confused MassuhDGoodName who refuses to accept Ultimate Truth even when he's given a link to a website explaining it to him!     

[AsheDina]

Massuh;
Muman is religious, which I do respect.

I am not religious Jew at ALL, I am a SPIRITUAL Jew.  I don't take mans words over the words of G-d, I respect Rabbis, many of them, but they are NOT G-d. Everything I need is in the written word of HaShem.

It does not say in the Torah OR the Tanakh that there are 11 months of some type of Catholic purgatory.  TY NO, my Moms family escaped some very cruel Catholic indoctrination- NO- I do NOT blame Catholics in 2010 for this, btw.. ; )


Why would he give us 11 more months? I dont get it, and it makes no sense.

Maybe I am a little more American "Christian" about it, but I believe that if you are evil, G-d is fed up and 11 months are not going to change an evil person.

Still, I have to wonder, WHERE did this info come from?

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "Still, I have to wonder, WHERE did this info come from? "

From muman613, of course, explaining to me how confused and misled I am by not having a proper understanding of what happens to Jews after death!

[muman613]

Where in the Torah OR the Tanakh does it say 11 months?

AsheDinah,

You are aware that the Jewish faith has two parts of Torah, the written law and the oral tradition. The Tanakh is the written Torah, and the Talmud is the written aspect of the oral law. The discussions of these things come from the Oral law, the background stories behind the Tanakh. Previously in other threads I have discussed the Scriptures which the sages interpreted to learn about life after life.

If you would like I could find those links once again... But this should answer your question as to where these beliefs come from based on the scriptures.

[muman613]

Re:  "Still, I have to wonder, WHERE did this info come from? "

From muman613, of course, explaining to me how confused and misled I am by not having a proper understanding of what happens to Jews after death!

Ok Massuh, I provided some links and I can provide more links to well-known Jewish learning sites..

And certainly we do not know what will happen until it happens, but the Jewish faith has addressed these issues and I am passing on what I have learned.

[AsheDina]

Thanks Muman, but no.

I tend to take G-d in his words, and will continue. I dont think you are wrong, but that is me, I am NOT religious, and dont care to be.

I commend you for doing so, that takes a lot of discipline.  I just believe that Massuh and I are probably on the same level this way, and that does not make us 'bad Jews', just different than religious Jews.

Thanks.

[muman613]

I realize this post is somewhat off-topic but since there seems to be interest in what the religious Jewish perspective on life after life is here is an article from simpletoremember.com:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewish-afterlife-beliefs/

Jewish Afterlife Beliefs
Do Jews believe in the hereafter such as life after death?

THE AISH RABBI REPLIES:

The afterlife is a fundamental of Jewish belief.

The creation of man testifies to the eternal life of the soul. The Torah says, “And the Almighty formed the man of dust from the ground, and He blew into his nostrils the SOUL of life” (Genesis 2:7). On this verse, the Zohar states that “one who blows, blows from within himself,” indicating that the soul is actually part of G-d’s essence. Since G-d’s essence is completely spiritual and non-physical, it is impossible that the soul should die. (The commentator Chizkuni says this why the verse calls it “soul of LIFE.”)

That’s what King Solomon meant when he wrote, “The dust will return to the ground as it was, and the spirit will return to G-d who gave it.” (Ecclesiastes 12:17)

For anyone who believes in a just and caring G-d, the existence of an afterlife makes logical sense. Could it be this world is just a playground without consequences? Did Hitler get away with killing 6,000,000 Jews? No. There is obviously a place where good people receive reward and bad people get punished. (see Maimonides’ 13 Principles of Faith)

The question of “why do bad things happen to good people” has a lot to do with how we look at existence. The way we usually perceive things is like this: A “good life” means that I make a comfortable living, I enjoy good health, and then I die peacefully at age 80. That’s a good life. Anything else is “bad.”

In a limited sense, that’s true. But if we have a soul and there is such a thing as eternity, then that changes the picture entirely. Eighty years in the face of eternity is not such a big deal.

From Judaism’s perspective, our eternal soul is as real as our thumb. This is the world of doing, and the “world to come” is where we experience the eternal reality of whatever we’ve become. Do you think after being responsible for the torture and deaths of millions of people, that Hitler could really “end it all” by just swallowing some poison? No. Ultimate justice is found in another dimension.

But the concept goes much deeper. From an eternal view, if the ultimate pleasure we’re going after is transcendence - the eternal relationship with the Almighty Himself, then who would be luckier: Someone who lives an easy life with little connection to G-d, or someone who is born handicapped, and despite the challenges, develops a connection with G-d. Who would be “luckier” in terms of eternal existence? All I’m trying to point out is that the rules of life start to look different from the point of view of eternity, as opposed to just the 70 or 80 years we have on earth.
So what is the afterlife exactly?

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called “This is Your Life!” Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It’s fully bared for all to see. That’s why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - “the World of Truth,” because there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

The second video depicts how a person’s life “could have been…” if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally. Pharaoh is one example.

So what about “heaven?”

Heaven is where the soul experiences the greatest possible pleasure - the feeling of closeness to G-d. Of course not all souls experience that to the same degree. It’s like going to a symphony concert. Some tickets are front-row center; others are back in the bleachers. Where your seat is located is based on the merit of your good deeds - e.g. giving charity, caring for others, prayer.

A second factor in heaven is your understanding of the environment. Just like at the concert, a person can have great seats but no appreciation of what’s going on. If a person spends their lifetime elevating the soul and becoming sensitive to spiritual realities (through Torah study), then that will translate into unimaginable pleasure in heaven. On the other hand, if life was all about pizza and football, well, that can get pretty boring for eternity.

The existence of the afterlife is not stated explicitly in the Torah itself, because as human beings we have to focus on our task in this world. Though awareness of an eternal reward can also be an effective motivator.

For further study, see Maimonides’ Foundations of the Torah, “The Way of G-d” by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzatto, and the commentary of Nachmanides to Leviticus 18:29.

May the Almighty grant you blessings, success - and eternal life!

* Zohar, Mishpatim, Exodus 1:1 * AriZal - Sha’ar Hagilgulim

from “Ask The Rabbi” - http://www.aish.com/rabbi/

http://www.chabad.org/multimedia/media_cdo/aid/456599/jewish/Reincarnation-A-Jewish-Belief.htm
http://www.meaningfullife.com/spiritual/soul/Reincarnation_and_Afterlife.php

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5763/chayeisarah.html

There are several reasons for the reincarnation of souls. It can be because a person sinned against the Torah and must return to rectify it. It can be to perform a mitzvah he previously had not completed. A third reason is for the sake of another individual, to guide and rectify him . . . There are other reasons as well, such as in order to marry his soul-mate, having not merited to do so the first time. Sometimes he may have already married his soul-mate, but he sinned and must return to rectify it; he will come back alone . . . Sometimes he has merits, and even though she does not need to reincarnate, she reincarnates with him . . . (Sha'ar HaGilgulim, Chapter 8)

PS:

As I said before... I am not an expert, nor do I know with any certainty that what I have learned is correct. I do have absolute faith in Hashem and I believe that the human soul is eternal and indestructible. If anyone wants to ask their Rabbi about this issue please go ahead and do so. I am not trying to tell anyone what to believe. I am just trying to teach what I have learned.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Re:  "Jews do not believe in burning in hell for eternity... We believe in Gilgul {soul reincarnation} and or spending up to 11 months in Gehinnom to purify our souls... Only those who are very heiniously evil will spend a long time in gehinnom.
"

muman613,
A few years ago a Lubavitcher Rabbi expressed to me that a decade in a Jerusalem yeshiva, followed by life at 770 for many years, had left him convinced that there were dozens of "Judaisms" being taught as dogma and practiced within the world of Jewry, and the situation was so bad that it was almost impossible for him to know what a Jew was supposed to be.  I thought his attitude very jaded, to say the least, and chalked it up to him having a 'bad day'.  But ever since, I have come closer and closer to that Rabbi's viewpoint.  After studying what is offered on all of the various Torah websites, glaring inconsistencies as to their understanding of Torah become ever more pronounced, as do their various positions taken in regard to their "support", or "lack of", for the Oslo Peace Process either in whole or in part.  I now more fully understand what Rabbi Kahane's article about Ha'Shem's regret for having caused the Exile was saying.  Because of our being scattered and powerless for close to two millenia, we now are clinging to a "second Torah":  The Torah of Exile - one full of all our varied experiences and increased knowledge learned while Exiled within the Gentile world.  We have lacked having the advantage of a unifying convention of Rabbis similar to the Christian Council of Nicea which consolidated and canonized NT scriptures and decided that which was, and was not, acceptable and true dogma. 

It sounds like this part of what you say is based on a misunderstanding.    We have always allowed various viewpoints and hashkafic beliefs within the framework of Judaism.  What needs to be unified and what we have lacked without a centralized body of rabbis (ie a Sanhedrin) is the HALACHA.    What we do and don't do, what is forbidden and permitted, etc.    There is a major distinction between what we do and what we think or believe.   Within what we think and believe, chazal incorporated multiple acceptable viewpoints into the discussion, but when it comes to halacha, that needs unification and that is the entire effort of the Mishna, and subsequently, the Talmud.    The Talmud is supposed to serve as a replacement-Sanhedrin, in a way, however we know the limitations of that especially given the dispersal of Jews across the world and the differing opinions on interpreting the rulings of the Talmud.   That results in disparate practices and differing rulings in different places, or in today's world, even different neighborhoods or from one house/apt complex to the next!     

But that your chabadnik rabbi expects there to be one unified grand theory of Jewish theology that everyone agrees to and is mandated for all Jews, is a mistaken expectation - misinformed perhaps - that does not fit with the Jewish religion.   With the exception of a few very basic things (and even this is not set in stone) such as the 13 principles of faith (and you can see these are very generalized and inclusive) - we don't pasken hashkafa.  We pasken halacha.

[Dr. Dan]

really great post muman about after life..enjoyed reading it.