comparing the bible creation to evolution timeline

[Lisa]

I don't believe in Evolution.  G-d made man in the immage of himself, we did not evolve from monkeys.

I also have difficulty in accepting this theory but, hey, when I look at Michelle Obama...

 

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "the moon is receding from the earth, but it has not always done so at the same rate. "

So in other words, what you just said is that the earth is some kind of man? ... and that the moon is the man's receding hairline?

WTF?  Just where in Torah does it say any such thing!

[Muck DeFuslims]

Aside from the discussion becoming a little too heated, this is a very interesting and informative debate/thread.

Lots of valuable information, theories, interpretation of scripture and a great display of passion and belief in Torah.

So where does Muck come down in this debate (don't you hate people that refer to themselves in the 3rd person) ??

Muck believes the universe is billions of years old.

Muck doesn't believe that single cell bacteria or amoeba evolved into plants, fish, birds, mammals or humans.

Muck senses some sort of order, to the universe and our very being, that is intangible but nonetheless real. Is this evidence of Hashem, intelligent design, or merely a manifestation of nature and it's inherent laws ? Muck doesn't know.

Muck believes that some things can't be known, or known with absolute certainty.

Muck believes that both KWRBT and DBN and others here have an absolute faith that he lacks.

Muck believes that being an agnostic that doesn't believe in evolution, per se, is probably an oddity.

Muck believes he should thank the participants in this thread for their entertaining, informative and passionate debate.

Muck believes he shud shut up now.

[Dr. Dan]

Dan what did chaim say about belittling fellow jtfers?  You can disagree without making a jtfers feel bad.

So in other words, what you just said is that the earth is some kind of man? ... and that the moon is the man's receding hairline?

No, she's using atheist theological principles to cover up the receding moon like men use ballcaps or toupees to cover up their receding hairlines.  Either way it is an arena of deceit that does not work.

[Rubystars]

Also to refute what the page said, the moon is receding from the earth, but it has not always done so at the same rate. When it was closer to the earth, it moved away more slowly.

That's just conjecture coming from the assumption that the moon must be old.  Here is more proof on the young moon:

http://www.icr.org/article/young-age-for-moon-earth/

None of that explains the fact that the moon could have moved more slowly away when it was more strongly affected by the earth's gravity, by virtue of being closer.

No, she's using atheist theological principles to cover up the receding moon like men use ballcaps or toupees to cover up their receding hairlines.  Either way it is an arena of deceit that does not work.

I have no intention to deceive you or anyone else. Also I'm not an atheist. I have also never heard of atheist theological principles. I thought that was a contradiction in terms since atheism means without theism, and of course that would exclude theology. I'm sorry that you feel upset with me. I didn't want any hard feelings just because I was choosing to debate this topic. This particular topic was a hobby of mine for a long time so I feel comfortable debating it, but I don't want to do it if it's going to hurt people's feelings or make them angry toward me. I don't want to stop anyone from believing what they feel is right.

[White Israelite]

A lot of the translations of the bible are primarily taken out of context due to the "Christian" King James version that has been rewritten, no where is the age of the earth mentioned. I'm slightly confused why anyone would believe that evolution cannot exist because of the bible? The bible never tries to disprove evolution nor does evolution try to disprove the bible, it's comparing apples and oranges.

read up on Kebara Cave in Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebara_Cave

those bones are over 60,000 years old and belonged to neanderthals.

[muman613]

A lot of the translations of the bible are primarily taken out of context due to the "Christian" King James version that has been rewritten, no where is the age of the earth mentioned. I'm slightly confused why anyone would believe that evolution cannot exist because of the bible? The bible never tries to disprove evolution nor does evolution try to disprove the bible, it's comparing apples and oranges.

read up on Kebara Cave in Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebara_Cave

those bones are over 60,000 years old and belonged to neanderthals.

The age of man is determined by the sages. This can be determined by adding the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam...

We are currently in the year 5770 from the creation of man...

[White Israelite]

A lot of the translations of the bible are primarily taken out of context due to the "Christian" King James version that has been rewritten, no where is the age of the earth mentioned. I'm slightly confused why anyone would believe that evolution cannot exist because of the bible? The bible never tries to disprove evolution nor does evolution try to disprove the bible, it's comparing apples and oranges.

read up on Kebara Cave in Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebara_Cave

those bones are over 60,000 years old and belonged to neanderthals.

The age of man is determined by the sages. This can be determined by adding the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam...

We are currently in the year 5770 from the creation of man...

that doesn't mean that is the age of the earth or other living creatures though.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

A lot of the translations of the bible are primarily taken out of context due to the "Christian" King James version that has been rewritten, no where is the age of the earth mentioned. I'm slightly confused why anyone would believe that evolution cannot exist because of the bible? The bible never tries to disprove evolution nor does evolution try to disprove the bible, it's comparing apples and oranges.

read up on Kebara Cave in Israel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kebara_Cave

those bones are over 60,000 years old and belonged to neanderthals.

The age of man is determined by the sages. This can be determined by adding the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam...

We are currently in the year 5770 from the creation of man...

that doesn't mean that is the age of the earth or other living creatures though.

Yes indeed.  I have made this point countless times, but it seems Muman is ignoring it.   Whaddaya say muman?

[Rubystars]

I personally think even human beings are older than 6000 years. The cave paintings in Lascaux made by modern humans are much older than 6000 years old too. They're about 32,000 years old. I also think of our cousins Neanderthals as being human, even though they were a different race of human, a bit further removed from us than the races are today. They used fire, fashioned tools, wore clothes, and likely had a spoken language. There's also evidence that they were able to treat each other's injuries. They probably had a medicine man or medicine woman to do that. I think at least one neanderthal site has a flute, which would indicate they played music. Music is usually associated in ancient times with religious worship too. They also buried their dead instead of leaving them on the ground to rot.

[Rubystars]

This is a 9000 year old sketch from India, showing that horses were already domesticated then:



People have been around for a long, long time.

[MassuhDGoodName]

That's not horses!

Those are bedbug stains from the Waldorf-Astoria in New York City!

[edu]

Rubystars if your 9000 year old cave painting was determined by carbon-dating it is completely unreliable, because Carbon Dating has been proven wrong too many times to make use of it.

[Rubystars]

Rubystars if your 9000 year old cave painting was determined by carbon-dating it is completely unreliable, because Carbon Dating has been proven wrong too many times to make use of it.

Why do you believe that? Where did you hear it?

That's not horses!

Those are bedbug stains from the Waldorf-Astoria in New York City!

Alternatively, maybe bedbugs left those stains on purpose in an attempt to share with humans their own advanced civilization, starting with the idea to domesticate horses!  Maybe bedbugs are really very small members of an advanced race of aliens! 

[Yaakov Mendel]

Aside from the discussion becoming a little too heated, this is a very interesting and informative debate/thread.

Lots of valuable information, theories, interpretation of scripture and a great display of passion and belief in Torah.

So where does Muck come down in this debate (don't you hate people that refer to themselves in the 3rd person) ??

Muck believes the universe is billions of years old.

Muck doesn't believe that single cell bacteria or amoeba evolved into plants, fish, birds, mammals or humans.

Muck senses some sort of order, to the universe and our very being, that is intangible but nonetheless real. Is this evidence of Hashem, intelligent design, or merely a manifestation of nature and it's inherent laws ? Muck doesn't know.

Muck believes that some things can't be known, or known with absolute certainty.

Muck believes that both KWRBT and DBN and others here have an absolute faith that he lacks.

Muck believes that being an agnostic that doesn't believe in evolution, per se, is probably an oddity.

Muck believes he should thank the participants in this thread for their entertaining, informative and passionate debate.

Muck believes he shud shut up now.

I understand and respect Muck's point of view. How can I be sure of Judaism ? The only honest answer is I cannot be sure, at least not absolutely sure. It is essentially a matter of faith.
Personally, I am very much inclined to believe in the Torah, because its prophecies are being fulfilled and because I cannot give a proper meaning to our existence and to the universe without HaShem.
But I find it extremely important that a Kahanist movement such as JTF remain open to secular minds and even to non-believers, because all it takes to support Rabbi Kahane's ideas is to care for the survival of the Jewish people, and more generally, to care for justice and historical truth.

[edu]

You asked me for sources for why carbon dating is unreliable
I will start with 2 that I found on the internet
{note: I don't agree 100% with the 2nd article but he brings enough examples of false datings by carbon dating to be relevant to our discussion}
http://creationwiki.org/Carbon-14_dating
http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carbondating.html

I don't have the source with me but I read that in some ancient find of food jars {probably it was in a pyramid, but I won't say 100%] one food jar by carbon dating was found to be many many centuries older than the next when it was obvious from the find that both jars were put in the same place at the same time.

[syyuge]

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/benton.html

QUOTE>> The best-known absolute dating technique is carbon-14 dating, which archaeologists prefer to use. However, the half-life of carbon-14 is only 5730 years, so the method cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years.  <<UNQUOTE

This means that all the created items may fall within the accurate range of the carbon-14 dating method.

Rather the durations of the days of creation were exponential, with the will of Hashem.

[edu]

I read the article by syyuge and thought instead of trying to answer the scientific questions raised against the dating technique, it just tried to malign the opposition that everyone who disagrees with us "is a primitive religious fundamentalist".

[Rubystars]

http://creationwiki.org/Carbon-14_dating

Scientists don't date things younger than 150 years or older than about 50,000 years with carbon dating because that's the range for which that method is accurate. There's no reason at all to think the rate of decay would have changed. The only ones who claim this are young earth creationists. I've never seen a mainstream scientist that was not a creationist argue that the rate of decay was not the same always. If the method was that flawed, it would have been in their interest to expose it too.

Here's the answer I found to the other point:
"Carbon-14, though, is continuously created through collisions of neutrons generated by cosmic rays with nitrogen in the upper atmosphere and thus remains at a near-constant level on Earth. The carbon-14 ends up as a trace component in atmospheric carbon dioxide (CO2)."

In other words, as long as cosmic rays never stopped hitting the earth in the last 50,000 years or so, then there's really no reason to think the amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere was that different.

http://www.angelfire.com/mi/dinosaurs/carbondating.html

"What would happen if a dinosaur bone were carbon dated?"
A wildly inaccurate result, of course, because dinosaurs are much, much older than that! Different dating methods are used for different materials because particular dating methods are only accurate for certain periods of time. As for the age of dinosaurs, there is a lot of evidence that dates them millions of years ago. One of them is that they are not found in any rock layers above the Cretaceous except for avian dinosaurs. During the Tertiary, only birds were left. 

I don't have the source with me but I read that in some ancient find of food jars {probably it was in a pyramid, but I won't say 100%] one food jar by carbon dating was found to be many many centuries older than the next when it was obvious from the find that both jars were put in the same place at the same time.

I don't know exactly what happened there. Maybe one of the jars had been cracked or contaminated. Maybe one of the jars had been mishandled somehow. It's really hard to know without knowing more about the story.

[syyuge]

I read the article by syyuge and thought instead of trying to answer the scientific questions raised against the dating technique, it just tried to malign the opposition that everyone who disagrees with us "is a primitive religious fundamentalist".

Sorry! I never meant to hurt anyone repeat anyone. I agree with almost all the religious fundamentalists except for the muslamics in any form or content. So I wish you all to keep following the creation.

Only thing I feel is that if there is any need, then creation and the evolution shall be discussed in entirely separate topics without any mutual interference.

As I understand, I reiterate that the only commonality between the two opinions can be rather that the durations of the days of creation were exponential, with the will of Hashem.     

[Muck DeFuslims]

The age of man is determined by the sages. This can be determined by adding the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam...

We are currently in the year 5770 from the creation of man...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is more accurate to say that according to Torah the soul of man was created 5770 years ago.

Is it not possible that before Adam there were beings that looked human, had many human characteristics, but lacked a human soul ?

Also, what does it mean to add the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam ? Is there no overlap ? Is there a continuity or contiguity amongst the 'personalities' that would lead one to believe the methodology used to derive the 5770 figure brings an accurate number ?

Some other questions I have - I believe some of the Bible 'personalities' are said to have lived extraordinarily long lives. Didn't Noah live for over 800 years ? Is there any evidence to support this ? Did the life span of humans gradually decrease since Noah until we reached today's span ?

How many years have we celebrated Rosh Hashunnah and Yom Kippur ? I can understand and easily believe that this number of years is accurate and documented. But I have a harder time believing the years before that can be precisely known. Perhaps some of the more knowledgable people here can provide some answers to these queries.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The age of man is determined by the sages. This can be determined by adding the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam...

We are currently in the year 5770 from the creation of man...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it is more accurate to say that according to Torah the soul of man was created 5770 years ago.

Is it not possible that before Adam there were beings that looked human, had many human characteristics, but lacked a human soul ?

That is the Seforno's opinion and it can be read into other Rishonim as well.   In fact, the Seforno describes the human (prior to receiving the living soul from God) as an animal

Also, what does it mean to add the ages of all the bible personalities since Adam ? Is there no overlap ? Is there a continuity or contiguity amongst the 'personalities' that would lead one to believe the methodology used to derive the 5770 figure brings an accurate number ?

From what I understand, the derivation of 5770 is no simple matter.  It is a complicated calculation based on intricate traditions that have to be combined together.   I think everyone agrees that is the dating of man as the Torah considers man, but still I don't think it's so clear-cut how that number is derived.

[MassuhDGoodName]

Re:  "the Seforno describes the human (prior to receiving the living soul from G-d) as an animal "

A whole bunch of 'em survived!

I can show you where they live!


                           

[wonga66]

After years of careful study, top researchers like Lord Solly Zuckerman and Professor Duane Gish concluded that the entire concept of man's evolution from an ape-like creature is a phantasm, and that all the once-sensationalised "missing-links" such as Cro-Magnon Man, Peking Man, Neanderthal Man, Java Man, Orce Man, Fontechevade Man, Wadjak Man, Grimaldi Man, Olduvai Man, Foxhall Man, Nutcracker Man, Swanscombe Man, Leaky's 1470 Man, Heidelberg Man, Galley Hill Man, Piltdown Man etc.etc., were either 100% ape, 100% homo sapiens or 100% hoax!                       
According to Jewish tradition (Sanhedrin 109) the punishment of one-third of the builders of the Tower of Babel was their miraculous transformation into apes: devolution not evolution!

[MassuhDGoodName]

wonga66:  "According to Jewish tradition (Sanhedrin 109) the punishment of one-third of the builders of the Tower of Babel was their miraculous transformation into apes: devolution not evolution! "

Well ... that's only because they neglected to pay their Union dues!