Author Topic: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"  (Read 17273 times)

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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #75 on: October 18, 2010, 11:09:26 PM »
You're just full of all the good answers, muman613, so I'm waiting until YOU make immediate aliyah in order that I have sufficient faith to follow your path!   
:::D :::D :::D

Offline muman613

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2010, 11:30:07 PM »
You're just full of all the good answers, muman613, so I'm waiting until YOU make immediate aliyah in order that I have sufficient faith to follow your path!   
:::D :::D :::D

I will explain once again that I will certainly make aliyah G-d willing when my remaining parents pass. My mother is very afraid, for some reason, of moving to Israel. But I do have a plan to make a home in Tzfat {I hope within then next 10 years}.

With good mazel I may make Aliyah to a Jewish state I will be proud of.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #77 on: October 19, 2010, 12:41:27 AM »
Re:  "The misdeeds of the past may be repeated, but we should do our best to prevent them. "

More easily done had Kahanists been the ones establishing the State back in '48.

But given the present day realities, my question is this:

How to create a viable Kahanist State out of what is present reality as The State of Israel?

I am asking for specifics set forth as a plan for action and success.

That's a good question that requires thinking realistically.   Some people are incapable of thinking in such a manner.   

Rather than focus on the simple-minded who would like to trash your question, let's focus on a parallel example in Jewish history and the pragmatic flexibility exhibited by one of the greatest minds in the history of the Jewish world, Rav Moshe Feinstein.

Example: It's all fair and well to label as a rebel a "frum-from-birth" religiously educated Jew who condemns G-d and spurns the mitzvoth by his free will, but what about the situation-on-the-ground that's been created in modern times due to unprecedented new "movements" (distorted as some of them are/were) combined with unprecedented freedoms and opportunities whereby a majority of the Jewish world are "secular Jews" - a persona which never had any real meaning in the past before all of these developments.   ("Jew" was defined by doing what Jews do and acting as Jews do).    How do we relate in Jewish law to Secular Jews who either don't know religion, weren't educated in it, have been taught a distorted/diluted form and reject that, are militant atheists because they don't understand the value of belief in G-d or practicing of Judaism, etc etc, and live lives similar to many fine gentiles?  Should these, many of them born into this secular-Jewish "identity" not of their own volition, have the same categorization as actual rebel Jews?   The answer of course, as determined by Rav Moshe Feinstein, was that we engage the reality on the ground and this new phenomenon is a likewise a new category.  He thus considered such Jews as "tinok shenishba" - captives as children who were raised in foreign environment, and thus should be treated with kindness, we should reach out to them, etc.  This is the predominant view in Jewish thought and inhabits almost all Jewish circles today.

This example just shows that real poskim have to engage themselves with the reality that exists, and new realities must be dealt with and understood with compassion alongside principles and halachic precedent.   So when creating a new "Kahanist state" that "Kahanist state" cannot be an ancient Biblical state or even a Talmudic state - it has to be a modern state based as much as possible on the values of ancient Jewish thought and practice and as much as possible on the chazalic- Talmudic principles that define Judaism.    But this is only possible to the extent that the very large population of secular Jews will actually accept it or at least try it and go along with it at first.  As time goes on, if certain things work, people will be willing to stick with them.   Certainly there will always be objections and a minority voice (ie peace now people) who will be against anything Jewish, but I'm referring to major things where the country wouldn't function because of the massive unrest or unpopularity etc.     
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:07:08 AM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #78 on: October 19, 2010, 12:47:51 AM »
We're not blaming the miners or Xtians.

We are blaming the ignorant and also subsersive Israeli Jewish Erev Rav government, for making Torah Judaism appear as a primus inter pares, and that Israel "is equally Holy to all religions, which is a subtle preparation of the Jewish public for divvying up Jerusalem, or as Smolmert called it, "The Holy Basin"!

In that sense, it's a very fair point you are presenting.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #79 on: October 19, 2010, 12:52:51 AM »
Re:  "Israel is a Jewish state with Jewish Laws "

Incorrect.

The State of Israel is a state with no constitution, and a legal system hodgepodge of Ottoman Turkish Law, British Law, and whoever knows what else;
:::D

Yes, indeed.

Joking aside, I think he was speaking in an ideal sense.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #80 on: October 19, 2010, 12:56:45 AM »
Re:  "it's idol worship which is forbidden in Judism and has no place in Israel "

True, yet we know that in ancient Israel some of our great Kings allowed their foreign wives to practice their own religions, and I don't see any devout Jews burning the Jewish Scriptures in protest!

Well, Jew!

How about it?

Is idol worship in Israel absolutely prohibited under any and all circumstances, or does the rule exclude the harems of Jewish Kings?



It is quite obvious that the kings who practiced idol worship are criticized for doing so by Jewish scripture and subsequent associated Jewish literature.   So I fail to understand the logic behind your question, and I disagree with what you imply here.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #81 on: October 19, 2010, 12:58:49 AM »
I love it when "the Jewish Taliban" who are already living in "The World To Come" studying at the feet of Moshiach [at least in their own minds and dreams], comes face to face with the REALITY of daily existence at a geographic location designated in Torah as The Land of Israel.

They continue to incorrectly refer to the modern day STATE of Israel  as "Israel " as if both labels accurately define  Eretz Yisrael of Torah as it will exist in The World To Come.

And even in Eretz Yisrael of Torah, the Children of Israel disobeyed Ha'Shem and left some "inhabitants of The Land" alive and living alongside them.

This mindset of "rigid absolutism" will last until its adherents all awaken one day living in a State of Israel with no revenue from tourism, no foreign trade, no income from revenue to run government, no communications with the non-Jewish world, and no religious practices allowed except their own.

This is the GREAT DILEMMA confronting those who advocate a Jewish State as opposed to a State full of Jews.

What worked two thousand years ago has no relevance in modern times.

Or, if you disagree, please elaborate on how such a system of statehood will work and survive.



It is very easy to pummel straw-men.

I have yet to see the Kahanists of JTF formulate a vision of a future state that has no foreign trade and no foreign tourism or half of the things you lambaste.   

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #82 on: October 19, 2010, 01:02:46 AM »
Re:  "Solomon's misdeeds.  It turned out terrible for the Jews and Israel, resulting in the separation of Israel and Judah, and eventually the destruction of both kingdoms. "

So then, you do agree with me that any and all mention of Solomon must be expunged and removed from all Jewish Scriptures, correct?

Otherwise Jews will continue boasting of "the Wisdom of Shlomo!"

Last I heard, a Rabbi was telling me he was renowned during his time as "The Wisest Man on Earth!"

Now, YOU are telling me that the "Wisest Man on Earth" caused the destruction of his own Jewish Nation because he didn't even have the good sense to obey G-d! 

Many wise men have erred.   

The view of Judaism is basically that Solomon was a wise man but also had flaws and made mistakes.  As the King of Israel, the mistakes he made can be disastrous.   I don't find this far-fetched at all, yet you seem to ridicule the very notion that anyone would think this way?

Why are you so convinced that wise and great men can't sin?   Is this also taught to you by a chabad rabbi?


As to
Quote
So then, you do agree with me that any and all mention of Solomon must be expunged and removed from all Jewish Scriptures, correct?

This is the ranting of a crazy man that seems to need medication.  Of course, you really didn't mean what you wrote, so why did you write it, exactly?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #83 on: October 19, 2010, 01:04:37 AM »
On the other hand ...

A Lubavitcher Rabbi taught me that when it comes to "free will", national leaders do not have it, but are controlled by Ha'Shem. 

Is that true of both Jewish and non-Jewish leaders according to that philosophy?  Or just the non-Jewish nations?


And is this about all decisions, or only those decisions as they affect and influence or interact with Israel?

Quote
Did Ha'Shem make Shlomo sin on purpose, so Ha'Shem could destroy his nation, so that we could all learn a valuable lesson?

Seems highly unlikely by first impression.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #84 on: October 19, 2010, 01:05:45 AM »
Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.
Shut up. You are the Christian version of Muman or Ron.

Irish Zionist, we all respect your beliefs but you are not just stating them, but bashing other peoples' religions. Do you honestly believe that the world would be a better place if the only religions on earth besides Judaism were paganism and Islam? Do you believe you would care about Israel today if you were raised in the faith of your Stonehenge Druid ancestors? Do you honestly believe that a pagan Europe would be enlightened, progressive, and philo-Semitic? We have pagans of European descent today--people such as Incogman, David Duke, and Richard Spencer. Are you going to tell me that they are great Zionists?

You are the phoniest Christian I've ever met in my entire life, Dr. Brennan Fan the way you let your fellow Christians get disrespected and attacked. You're nothing but a stupid Judas if there ever was one. I'll continue to stand up for my people, which doesn't include you, you little Eminem-worshipper.

Well that was uncalled for.

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #85 on: October 19, 2010, 02:07:38 AM »
Re:  "This is the ranting of a crazy man that seems to need medication.  Of course, you really didn't mean what you wrote, so why did you write it, exactly? "

This is the pot calling the kettle black.

Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

>:(

Offline MassuhDGoodName

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #86 on: October 19, 2010, 02:10:18 AM »
Re:  "I have yet to see the Kahanists of JTF formulate a vision of a future state that has no foreign trade and no foreign tourism or half of the things you lambaste.    "

Hey genius, I have yet to see the Kahanists of JTF formulate ANY vision of a future state whatsoever.

Lots of talk and bluster amounting to nothing especially from YOU!

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #87 on: October 19, 2010, 02:21:05 AM »
But what really gets to me is the comparisons of Christianity to islam or the many ancient pagan religions that existed in the Levant before the modern age. 
It just shows an utter lack of respect to us as Christians who love Israel and Jews. Israel is holy to us as well and unlike the muslims, we don't want to steamroll it, kill all the Jews and make it part of some caliphate. So stop comparing us to wild-eyed ishmaelite savages or pagans. Can you understand how offensive it is to have your religion compared to islam or paganism?

I don't think any Jew here would equate Christianity and Islam. That would be stupid and, indeed, shocking.
Personally, I don't believe in Christianity because I don't think that Jesus was Messiah or G-d, and also for a few philosophical and moral differences - for example, I find that Christianity sometimes puts too much emphasis on compassion and forgiveness at the expense of justice. But I find Christianity to be an essentially respectable set of beliefs and principles, whereas Islam is evil to the core. I would be surprised to find here, at JTF, Jews who do not understand the huge difference between the two.


Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #88 on: October 19, 2010, 05:26:15 AM »
I think someone else posted this but inviting th3m to a synagogue to reach them about the miracles of hanukah would be more appropriate. If they go to church on Xmas in Bethlehem to thank Gd the only way they know how to what's wrong with that?  But the Israel govt really should have invited them in the name of a hanukah miracle.






Than you Dr. Dan for your post. 

I don't think Israeli taxpayers should foot the bill for this. 

On the other hand, I don't like the tone of Wonga's first post on this thread.  We Jews and Christians have different religious beliefs.  Wonga, you need to stop beating the Christian members over their heads about this. 
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #89 on: October 19, 2010, 05:57:20 AM »
It is outrages that the very Halacha that Avodah Zara
should be eliminated from the Holy Land is debated and
not accepted.

Celebrate your holidays at home, not in the Holy Land.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #90 on: October 19, 2010, 06:20:16 AM »
Ruby don't you find how discusting this is? Jews celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land at Jewish Taxpayers expense!

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

Our religion forbids the existence of any other religion in the Land of Israel,
because it is a direct violation of the very reason the Jewish people were
created and why they have been given the Land of Israel to rule over.

When you say this we feel the same way you'd feel had we've been
breaking into your local church reciting what the Talmud says about
your "Messiah"/idol.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #91 on: October 19, 2010, 06:44:40 AM »
The Holy Land also has sites that are important to Christians because they were mentioned in the NT. There are reasons why Christians might want to visit these sites where Jesus walked and lived. If they are strictly not allowed to missionize, then I don't see how this threatens the Jewish state or its Jewish culture or religion.

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #92 on: October 19, 2010, 06:50:29 AM »
It is outrages that the very Halacha that Avodah Zara
should be eliminated from the Holy Land is debated and
not accepted.

Celebrate your holidays at home, not in the Holy Land.

But the biblical prohibition of Avodah Zara was written against pagans. Do you view Christians as pagans ?

Offline mord

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #93 on: October 19, 2010, 07:05:51 AM »
It's really no big deal in my opinion they are Christians i think there are many Churches in Israel let them visit.
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline wonga66

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #94 on: October 19, 2010, 09:54:23 AM »
The "g o d" of Christianity and the "allah" of Islam, is not the G-d of Israel. We do not believe in the same Deity. The goal of the Jew is to Judaize the gentiles and thereby the whole world, without necessarily making them in to full Jews.

If these Chileans were invited as part of a Noahide programme: wonderful!

But for the Israeli government to invite them to spend a "spiritual holiday" in Eretz Yisrael celebrating the birth of the Accursed Nazarene, is an abomination.

The Xtians get the idea of their "antichrist" from our "anti-moshiach", Armilus.

The antichrist, we support!




Offline Irish Zionist

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #95 on: October 19, 2010, 11:06:30 AM »
Ruby, they just don't get it and simply don't ever want to.
Shut up. You are the Christian version of Muman or Ron.

Irish Zionist, we all respect your beliefs but you are not just stating them, but bashing other peoples' religions. Do you honestly believe that the world would be a better place if the only religions on earth besides Judaism were paganism and Islam? Do you believe you would care about Israel today if you were raised in the faith of your Stonehenge Druid ancestors? Do you honestly believe that a pagan Europe would be enlightened, progressive, and philo-Semitic? We have pagans of European descent today--people such as Incogman, David Duke, and Richard Spencer. Are you going to tell me that they are great Zionists?
I am not bashing Xtianity. I am just against a non Jewish religion celebrating Idols in Israel. Idol worship is FORBIDDEN in Judism.
The banding together by the nations of the world against Israel is the guarantee that their time of destruction is near and the final redemption of the Jew at hand.
Rabbi Meir Kahane

Offline Irish Zionist

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #96 on: October 19, 2010, 11:07:53 AM »
Quote
Shut up. You are the Christian version of Muman or Ron.
Well that was uncalled for.
The banding together by the nations of the world against Israel is the guarantee that their time of destruction is near and the final redemption of the Jew at hand.
Rabbi Meir Kahane

Offline Lisa

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #97 on: October 19, 2010, 11:17:56 AM »
Wonga, that was totally uncalled for.

Offline nessuno

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #98 on: October 19, 2010, 11:28:30 AM »
Ruby don't you find how discusting this is? Jews celebrating Xmas in The Holy Land at Jewish Taxpayers expense!

I don't think that Israeli taxpayers should pay for this. If they're going to go on vacation to Israel, it should be private money funding it only. I just didn't like the tone of wonga's post.

Our religion forbids the existence of any other religion in the Land of Israel,
because it is a direct violation of the very reason the Jewish people were
created and why they have been given the Land of Israel to rule over.

When you say this we feel the same way you'd feel had we've been
breaking into your local church reciting what the Talmud says about
your "Messiah"/idol.
One day Ron Ben Michael you will grow up.  That was totally uncalled for. 
I feel very sorry for you.
I don't have to bash, question, or ridicule your faith.  Mostly because I'm very secure in my own. 
Is that how the Talmud tells you to act? 
I'm sad to see threads like this over and over again.
I'm sure it's turning good, and potential, members away.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline wonga66

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Re: Chilean miners invited by Israel for an all-up "spiritual Xtian holiday"
« Reply #99 on: October 19, 2010, 11:32:00 AM »
Rambam's words on Xtianity:

Could there be a greater stumbling block than Yeshu Hanotzri (Jesus)? For all the prophets spoke of the Messiah who will redeem and save Israel, who will ingather all its exiles, and who will strengthen them in the fulfillment of the Torah's commandments - while he [Jesus] caused Israel to be killed by the sword, their remnants to be dispersed and humiliated, the Torah to be switched for something else, and most of the world to worship a G-d other than the G-d of Israel! But - the thoughts of G-d cannot be fathomed by human minds. For our ways are not like His, and our thoughts are not like His. All these activities of Jesus the Christian, and the Ishmaelite who came after him, are all for the purpose of paving the way for the true King Messiah, and preparing the entire world to worship G-d together, as is written (Tzefaniah 3,9): 'For then I will convert the nations to a pure language, that they may all call in the name of G-d and serve Him together.' (Hilchos Melochim 11:4)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 11:44:39 AM by wonga66 »