Author Topic: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?  (Read 9072 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #75 on: November 18, 2010, 05:30:07 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'

Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...

But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #76 on: November 18, 2010, 05:33:51 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'

Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...

But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..



Whether you think it or not, the govt admitted that Avishai Raviv was hired by the GSS to create an "extremist group," I think it was called "eyal " where he depicted Rabin in a nazi uniform and his job was to encourage Amir to shoot the prime minister.    Whether you think it's likely or not, Rabin's govt hired Avishai Raviv.   No one can deny fact.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #77 on: November 18, 2010, 05:35:21 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'

Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...

But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..



Whether you think it or not, the govt admitted that Avishai Raviv was hired by the GSS to create an "extremist group," I think it was called "eyal " where he depicted Rabin in a nazi uniform and his job was to encourage Amir to shoot the prime minister.    Whether you think it's likely or not, Rabin's govt hired Avishai Raviv.   No one can deny fact.

KWRBT,

Did you read what I said... I just posted from the article which discussed the photo of Rabin, etc... I do not deny that... Read what I said... I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM... He went with the intention of shooting the PM... Nobody would walk into that arena carrying a blank gun knowingly..


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #78 on: November 18, 2010, 05:38:04 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'

Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...

But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..



What you said is incoherent.

They never said "go shoot blanks at him."   They said "go shoot him" and they put blanks in the gun thinking he wouldn't know.   He was smarter than them and replaced blanks with real bullets.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #79 on: November 18, 2010, 05:40:22 PM »
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...

No one claimed that.   I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #80 on: November 18, 2010, 05:53:17 PM »
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...

No one claimed that.   I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.


So you agree that by definition he is guilty...

The same kind of rationale can be used against the terrorists who were going to blow up the synagogues in NY last year. The FBI gave these terrorists the fake bombs, and they placed them thinking they were going to go off...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Blotter/wireStory?id=11909707

Quote
For weeks, a jury listened to tapes of James Cromitie ranting against Jews and U.S. military aggression in the Middle East and talking to an informant — paid by the FBI and wearing a wire — about how to get revenge by blowing up New York City synagogues and shooting down military planes.

Videotape showed the men inspecting and practicing with fake weapons — part of a plot federal prosecutors said was all Cromitie's idea. The defense dismissed the sting as a "movie written, produced and directed" by the FBI and never a real threat to New Yorkers.

Jurors deliberated for eight days at the trial in federal court in Manhattan before rejecting an entrapment defense and siding with the government by finding Cromitie and three co-defendants guilty of conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction and other charges.

Cromitie and David Williams were convicted of all eight counts, while Onta Williams and Laguerre Payen were convicted of seven of eight counts. Sentencing was set for March 24; the defendants could face up to life in prison.

Afterward, U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara in a statement called homegrown terrorism a "serious threat" and added: "We are safer today as a result of these convictions." He said the defendants agreed to plant bombs and use missiles "they thought were very real weapons of terrorism."

Defense lawyers said they will appeal.

"This is a miscarriage of justice — just like the whole trial and case," said one of the attorneys, Susanne Brody. Another, Samuel Braverman, said his client was stunned by the verdict.
.
.

PS: Again I do not have sympathy on Rabin. His plans were the 'beginning of the end' so to speak, and today we are still paying for his poor policies.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #81 on: November 18, 2010, 06:02:47 PM »
Muman, it's not conspiracy theory that he was entrapped, it's common knowledge.  The Israeli govt admitted to this.   Avishai Raviv was code name 'Champagne' and he was in charge of inciting Amir to kill rabin.   

The conspiracy theory says he fired actual blanks thinking they were real bullets.   Many people think that what actually happened was that they put blanks in the gun and he switched them for real bullets and then shot him for real, which they didn't want.
'

Yes, I am aware of all the facts of this conspiracy theory...

But I do not think that they told him to go and shoot blanks are the PM... Who would do this? What I believe that the conspiracy theory says is that they incited him to kill the PM by appealing to his religious zionism, gave him anti-Rabin propaganda, gave him the weapon, and allowed him access to the PM... I believe that he really believed that he was killing the PM..



What you said is incoherent.

They never said "go shoot blanks at him."   They said "go shoot him" and they put blanks in the gun thinking he wouldn't know.   He was smarter than them and replaced blanks with real bullets.

But all the conspiracy theories I have seen say that he did not Shoot Rabin, that the witnesses said it was blanks, that the video shows him shooting with the wrong hand, that the # of gunshot wounds was not equal to the # of shots heard, etc...

So what do we believe? Did he really shoot Rabin? Or was Rabin actually shot by a Shabak agent while he was in the car?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #82 on: November 18, 2010, 06:05:46 PM »
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/rabinass.html

Nine Days, Two Conspiracy Theories

The anniversary period occasioned a raft of headlines suggesting that “the Left” and “the Right” were squaring off for war over the causes (note the plural) of the Rabin assassination, with the focus on conspiracies.

The conspiracy theory expressed in the name of “the Left” emerged in November 1995, immediately after the assassination. Articulated sometimes as an innuendo and sometimes as a certainty, it alleged that Rabin had been assassinated collectively by “the Right,” “the settlers,” “the religious,” or some combination/mutation of the three. Yigal Amir's trigger finger, this account argued, was a marionette appendage actuated by vile and benighted hordes that should be cast out of the Israeli polity if not targeted for revenge. Those who share this conviction have coined a slogan: “Never Forgive, Never Forget.” In an advertisement published on Nov. 7, for example, the Peace Bloc (an alliance of small groups rooted in Canaanism and the intifada-era far Left) referred to Rabin's murder “by nationalist religious zealots.” Within a few days, unidentified individuals had issued death threats against several rightist-Orthodox parliamentarians.

The theory expressed by “the Right” revolved around Avishai Raviv, whom the General Security Service (GSS) had recruited to inform on the extreme Right. The publication of hitherto-classified sections of Shamgar Commission of Inquiry into the Rabin assassination, which by chanced coincided with the anniversary, shed some light on Raviv's provocative tactics and led some to argue that Raviv had incited Amir on the instructions of the GSS, which had scores to settle with Rabin.

Proponents of the two theories met, so to speak, on Nov. 30 at a Tel Aviv workshop entitled: “The Avishai Raviv Affair and Who is Afraid of Probing the Conspiracy to Assassinate Rabin.” While the Ravivists conspired inside the hall, a squad of demonstrators from a peace movement protested outside. The message on their posters: “Everyone knows who incited.”

Some mainstream figures who keep their distance from conspiracy-mongers nevertheless allude to these sentiments. On the Right, cabinet secretary Danny Naveh alleged (Nov. 15) that politicians associated with the previous Government knew that at least some of Avishai Raviv's actions were committed “within the framework” of the GSS and exploited them to besmirch the “national camp” (as the mainstream Right has termed itself since the 1980s). MK Rehavam Zeevy, head of the Moledet Party, blamed Rabin for his own murder “as the official in charge of the GSS” (Nov. 14).

On the center-left, Labour Party chairman Ehud Barak flirted with his fringe's conspiracy theory in otherwise conciliatory memorial remarks on Nov. 12. “May we never assail each other from rooftops and terraces,” he said, alluding to the infamous 1995 Likud rally, addressed by party leader Benjamin Netanyahu from a balcony, beneath which Raviv circulated with a poster that had Rabin's head superimposed on a picture of SS commander Heinrich Himmler in full regalia—“and not stand at streetcorners and plazas surrounded by symbols of death, blood, and treason”—an in direct reference to the extraparliamentary movements' tactics that year. However, Barak then deliberately modified the fringe players' formula: “We won't forget Rabin, and we won't forgive his murderer.”

The notion of setting aside the Rabin assassination as sui generis, as Israel usually does with the Holocaust—a matter comparable to nothing else, an event only to be rued and, in the context of recurrence, prevented—has yet to mature among those who feel strongly about the matter.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #83 on: November 18, 2010, 06:11:23 PM »
Here is one more article on this subject from Samson Blinded site:

http://samsonblinded.org/blog/how-rabin-was-killed.htm



How Rabin was killed

There are many gaps in the story of Rabin’s assassination. But we can reliably fill them from context. The Israeli ruling establishment has a history of political assassinations, including Arlozoroff, the Season, and most likely the Kahanes and Zeevi. Assassinating Rabin wouldn’t have been outrageous. The establishment also has a documented history of blatant disregard for the law, such as the Beilin-Peres negotiations with the PLO in Cairo before Rabin’s election. Beilin and Peres are heavily invested in the peace process, and one more “victim of the peace process” was not a high price for them to pay. Both hated Rabin and numbered many grievances against him.

The two conspiracies were running concurrently. One was a normal Shin-Bet provocation against the right wing, in line with the subsequent framing of Goldstein, the purported Kahane Chai planning of the attack on an Arab school, and so on. Shin-Bet’s agent Champagne worked in Hebron for years, and Yigal Amir was just one of his targets. Shin-Bet aimed to frame the right, not kill Rabin. So Amir, unknown to himself, was shooting blanks at Rabin. Shin-Bet infiltrated Amir into the sterile area of the highest security and warned the guards to stay away from Rabin to give Amir clear shot. That much we see on the video: Rabin’s guards step away when Amir draws his gun. Subsequently, the shouts are heard, “It’s blanks!” The shooting was theatrically staged after the immense peace show. It was planned in a sterile area rather than in the square so that no one would stop Amir. Shin Bet, accordingly, placed video operators near the scene to have evidence against Amir—hence the Kempler video. To retain credibility, the video had to be amateurish. Rabin was likely aware of the plot because on the video he seems to look at Amir quietly, without gesticulation. The Shin-Bet plot had been cooking for years. Champagne spent much time with Amir and the conservatives.

A big change came about shortly before the peace rally. Rabin publicly refused to make concessions to Arabs and called for annexing the West Bank. It seems that he entered one of his hysterical mood swings. It became paramount for the Peres-Beilin group to get rid of Rabin. Planning the removal of Rabin—at that stage, not necessarily by murder—they came to know of Shin-Bet’s provocation plot, an insignificant operation among many similar ones. At that point, Peres or Beilin instructed Shin-Bet to move forward with the fake assassination, but also planned a follow-up: the real assassination of Rabin in his car. Although Shin-Bet was profoundly leftist and both Peres and Beilin had many appointees there, the security service undoubtedly knew nothing of the planned real assassination. Rabin was probably killed by a guard who worked for Peres. Rabin’s own guard was killed in the ensuing skirmish, and honorably buried a few days later after “committing suicide.”

Now Shin-Bet realized that the Peres-Beilin group had framed it. The secret of Champagne could not be kept for long, and as soon as it came out Shin-Bet would be implicated in Rabin’s murder. That’s no small thing: a Shin-Bet agent convinced a right-winger to shoot Rabin. That smacks of a putsch. So Shin-Bet released the Kempler video to prove that Amir didn’t kill Rabin. Shin-Bet didn’t want to take a crash course with Peres and Beilin, and didn’t dispute the official version of Amir assassinating Rabin, but secured its own back by proving that Amir didn’t kill Rabin.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #84 on: November 18, 2010, 08:00:10 PM »
I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.

At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing.   Some people are against that on principle.
Unless you believe in the conspiracy theory that Shimon Peres had Rabin killed, Amir was forced to do what he did by Shabak agents. In the former scenario, he is a completely innocent fall guy. In the latter, he is an entrapment victim. Either way he is the victim of a grotesque miscarriage of justice. Tell me why there are average Israelis who think he should be in jail forever but aren't bothered by Samir Kuntar, Mahmoud Abbas, the butchers who shot Shalhevet Pass, and Mohammed Jabarra walking scot-free, the latter three on the streets of Israel. As far as I am concerned the Israelis who feel that way, brainwashed or not, need to be relocated (without compensation) to Riyadh or Lahore. (And that is a moderate punishment.)

But let's pretend he just up and decided to assassinate Rabin on his own, which is NOT what happened. I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence, but it's kind of beyond dispute that Rabin was a kapo of the highest order--one who collaborated with the British and German Nazis during WWII, sinking the ships of Holocaust refugees, and later presided over a savage "dirty war" against Jewish rightists in the Irgun (culminating in the Altalena), and devoted his whole life to murdering his own people. How is the fact that he received judgment for his sins a bad thing?

Quote
I don't know.  That was what I asked Ron.
Chaim has the exact quotation.

Quote
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it. The money that well-meaning right-wing Jews have given to "kahane".org and Feiglin's organization could have gone to JDL/JTF/Hayamin, where it would have made a whole lot more difference. I think Feiglin should disband his movement and work for Hayamin, personally, instead of competing with it.

Quote
How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel?   What are you talking about?
They are both right-wing movements that are trying to save Israel.

Quote
That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.
I care about the people of Israel (at least the non-self haters). Think about it--if I didn't care about Jews, would I post here?

He slandered two great Jews, one of whom is a sacred martyr who knowingly went to his death to save Israelis in his village from a second Babi Yar. Pardon me if I have a low level of tolerance for spreading blood libel against such a holy tzaddik.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #85 on: November 18, 2010, 10:28:44 PM »
I said I think he did not go to 'pretend to shoot' the PM...

No one claimed that.   I haven't even seen conspiracy theorists claim that.


So you agree that by definition he is guilty... 

Well you shouldn't "put words in my mouth" as the saying goes.

I agree that he actually killed rabin.   Guilty is another question. 

Btw, entrapment is actually illegal, so if those black muslim scumbags were actually entrapped, then they could be let off on their charges.   But the people involved usually know what the boundaries are and what constitutes legal entrapment vs tricking them into doing something of their own will that they wanted from the beginning, which is legal.  It seems the feds involved didn't cross that line and they will be charged (were they already charged?  I seem to remember a sentencing).

But actual entrapment is something the law enforcement have to be careful of avoiding in cases like this.   And hiring a guy to say "Kill rabin" is ACTUAL ENTRAPMENT.    So why compare with the black muslim scum bombers whose lawyers cry entrapment even though there was none?



Quote
The same kind of rationale can be used against the terrorists who were going to blow up the synagogues in NY last year. The FBI gave these terrorists the fake bombs, and they placed them thinking they were going to go off...

Entrapment is not the fact that the fbi gave them bombs.   Entrapment would be if the FBI was convincing them to go and commit the act.    If the fbi informants merely supplied the equipment that THEY the muslims sought themselves as part of a sting operation, that's NOT entrapment.

So in our case, when they gave Amir a gun-  that is not entrapment and no one claims it was.

But prior to that, when they convinced him to do it, that WAS entrapment.  Hope that clarifies.




Whether he was entrapped or not, I personally view Amir as heroic.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #86 on: November 18, 2010, 10:36:07 PM »
I agree that in many respects he did act heroic.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes.

Either he actually did it and wanted to do it before he was 'programmed' to carry out this action. Or he did it, and he didn't really want to do it and was only coaxed into doing it.

Is he heroic in both cases? I don't know the answer to this one. If he did it and he wanted to do it, he is guilty according to the law, and it was heroic. But if he didn't want to do it, and only did it because he was 'brainwashed' and according to one of the articles I posted he was allegedly on some mind-altering drug when he did it, then I feel more sympathy for a poor guy who was manipulated rather than feeling he acted heroically.

I did not hear the allegation that he was given the gun with blanks and that he replaced them with actual ammunition. Do you remember where you read that fact?

PS: I apologize if it appeared that I put words into your mouth... I would never want to do such a thing..

PPS: I also try to avoid the story as reported by Chamish... I have come across his ideas several times while searching on this topic. It seems like every story which I read on google mentions Chamish.

For example : http://tembakan.com/832598-No-gunpowder-on-Yigal-Amir-s-hands.html

Not that I encourage people to read Chamish's theories.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:41:17 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #87 on: November 18, 2010, 10:46:32 PM »
I will post one more article on this topic:

http://www.jewishmag.com/28mag/raviv/raviv.htm



What Really Happened with Yitzhak Rabin and Avishai Raviv?
By L.H. Duboff


Every one knows who Yitzhak Rabin was, but not every one knows who Avishai Raviv is.

Going back in time, we recall the tragic assassination of then Israeli Prime Minister, Yitzhak Rabin. Rabin, who according to opinion polls at the time, was losing credibility with his peace process due to the increase of Arab terrorist actions and in view of the many well attended demonstrations from the political right. Rabin made his own peace demonstration in Tel Aviv to bolster his falling image and to counter the political gains of the right.

As we know, as he left his pro-peace demonstration, he was shot by a young kippa (religious headcovering) wearing man by the name of Yigal Amir. Rabin died shortly after the shooting. The Israeli press instantly went into hysteria accusing the religious political right of being responsible. The nation's police force quickly rounded up many Rabbis and accused them of making speeches branding Rabin as a "rodef" (a person who is trying to kill another and according to Jewish law should be killed himself). The nation's press played up the theme that the religious in this country (and abroad) were too fanatic and must be stopped. A full-fledged witch-hunt was soon begun with the theme being that the religious are no good and Rabbis must be imprisoned together with the irresponsible leaders of the right.

The idealistic settlers, who as the behest of the many previous governments, settled the dangerous and hilly mountain slopes of Judea and Samaria, were branded as extreme and unwanted individuals. Free expression of opinion was reduced to that of the Stalinist era in Russia. Phones were tapped, letters were mysteriously opened and read by government agents, and the country was reduced to a terrorist state. All verbal opposition to the government was squashed and silenced. No one dared offer a criticism of Rabin, his policies or the government actions.

The right was thoroughly discredited throughout the media. The religious men subject to nasty comments comparing them to leeches and murderers. The political left lost no time in using the assassination to gain support and to further discredit the right blaming them fully for the tragic murder. The newspapers demanded that the Rabbis who influenced Yigal Amir to believe that Rabin must be stopped and that he was a "rodef", must be tried as accomplices. Hundreds of Rabbis and thousands of religious men and women were brought in to undergo torturous questioning as to who called Rabin a "rodef". The press was in full heat, calling for a full investigation of the conspiracy of the Rabbis.

To which fringe group did Amir belong? That became the new war cry! We must indite those irresponsible young (and old) fanatics! Then it became known that Amir, who attended the religious Bar Ilan University, near Tel Aviv, was a member of an extremist group called Eyal. The newspapers/television/radio media were now into a hot story. A fanatic religious political right extremist group! Who were the members of Eyal? Who was their leader that goaded Amir?

The news came out! The leader of Eyal was Avishai Raviv. Let him share the murderous fate of Amir! But, the media wanted more, who was Avishai Raviv? Ah, well, at first the information was denied, but it slowly came out - he has a connection with the government. Not just a government employee, but an agent working for the GSS, the secret Government Security Services. At this point all information became stifled. Suddenly, as quick as the heat was turned on by the press, it was turned off.

The newspapers began focusing on other issues. The GSS, we were told, will investigate this matter thoroughly. A full report will be forthcoming. A full report never came - only some lies and some covering up. First Raviv was described as an informant, but not working for the GSS, that's all. But independent investigation proved that to be a lie. Then it was admitted that he was an agent, who did work for the GSS, but he was only to tell what he had heard.


The T-shirt distibuted by Raviv showing Rabin as a Nazi.

In the meantime, it became known that Raviv was not a mere agent, he was a government hired and paid provocateur. Raviv's assignment was to make the right look bad in the eyes of the middle ground voters. This was to be accomplished by having the right do extreme tactics, which would be repelled by the middle ground voters.


Raviv at a anti-peace rally.

Some of the tactics included beating up innocent Arabs, burning Arab vehicles, spraying walls with violent anti Rabin slogans. Raviv even distributed a photo of Rabin as a Nazi, which of course infuriated the press and the middle ground voters. He further infuriated the middle ground voters by toasting Baruch Goldstien, the man who murdered some thirty Arabs in Hebron.

Raviv was the head of Eyal, the group to which Amir belonged. The extremist group, Eyal, which was set up on the campus of Bar Ilan University, was instigated and funded by the GSS. Raviv who had a very close relation with Amir, goaded Amir, telling him that he is a coward and has not the courage to kill him. In a party which was attended by several girls, (witness testimony was given to the Shamgar commission report yet was never acted upon) Raviv prodded Amir to kill Rabin.


Raviv posing with a gun.

Up to here, my dear reader, is absolute fact. From here on is the theory.

It is strongly felt here in Israel, by independent news sources and many members of the public, that Amir was set up by not just Raviv, but also the GSS to stage an assassination attempt on Rabin. It was felt that that, and only that, could bring the sentiments of the people back to the side of Rabin. The scapegoat, Amir, was unknowingly given a gun with blanks. (As is known that someone yelled at the time of the shooting, "Blanks, blanks". He was to have shot Rabin with this gun. Rabin was to have escaped the shooting unscathed. The left (sic) would be discredited. Public opinion would come back to Rabin.

Somewhere, the blank bullets in the gun were switched for real ones. Amir who was psyched by Raviv (and the GSS) to assassinate Rabin really did it.

Yet, there is something greater that is wrong here. There is a principle of free speech, together with our knowing how much the government was involved with the manipulation of the opinion making instuments (i.e. the media) which are supposed to be independent. There is something which smells from the Israeli Government's closet of secrecy. Amir was tried without bringing Raviv to court. Raviv is a free man. The government keeps pushing off any investigation into his connection with the GSS and perhaps even Rabin's own knowledge that an assassination attempt was to take place.

Even worse, my dear reader, unlike every free country, the press, the radio, and the boob tube, are not interested in the story. Perhaps they are only interested in slandering the innocent right and religious. Perhaps they are afraid of the GSS.

What part did the Israeli government have in Rabin's murder? Why has no real information come out from the government to clear up the involvment of the GSS? What is the Israeli government hiding from us?

But you can help. Talk it up. Inquire about the case. Don't let it die. Truth is not just a gentile concept, but also a Jewish one.

from the January 2000 Edition of the Jewish Magazine
« Last Edit: November 18, 2010, 10:52:47 PM by muman613 »
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #88 on: November 18, 2010, 10:52:11 PM »
I agree that in many respects he did act heroic.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too, as the saying goes.  

I'm not sure what you're referring to.

Quote
Either he actually did it and wanted to do it before he was 'programmed' to carry out this action. Or he did it, and he didn't really want to do it and was only coaxed into doing it.  

Never claimed he was "programmed."  He was a person not a robot.  He was convinced to do it.  It still took guts and conviction to actually do it.  

And I'm not sure what you mean.   Yes, either he never wanted to do it and got convinced to, or he wanted to and also got coaxed into it.     There was coaxing, so any other scenario is imaginary.    But he was obviously ideologically opposed to oslo, and their "encouragement" of his deed did not come in a vacuum.  Still there is a legal definition of entrapment that it seems they violated.  

Quote
Is he heroic in both cases?
Note - I did not know what you were getting at until what you wrote below...
Quote
I don't know the answer to this one. If he did it and he wanted to do it, he is guilty according to the law, and it was heroic. But if he didn't want to do it, and only did it because he was 'brainwashed' and according to one of the articles I posted he was allegedly on some mind-altering drug when he did it, then I feel more sympathy for a poor guy who was manipulated rather than feeling he acted heroically.

I'm a little confused by these 'alternatives.'   He pulled the trigger and shots went bang.   Everyone witnessed that much and the video shows that much.   Mind altering drug - I don't know how that got into the equation except by the meanderings of a certain madman.   Where is evidence he took drugs?!   To me what is seen in the video is an act of will.   I don't think there's any question about that part.

Quote
I did not hear the allegation that he was given the gun with blanks and that he replaced them with actual ammunition. Do you remember where you read that fact?

Chaim has said this, and it might have come from Raviv's testimony.  I know I've read it before.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #89 on: November 18, 2010, 11:04:19 PM »
Ok,

I should clarify what I said about the Psychoactive drugs. The article which I was referring to mentioned that he admitted to doing it while under the influence of a psychoactive drug and not what I said in my previous posting which implied he did the act while under the influence.

It is very sad what happened. Enough is known about it to come to the conclusion that the Israeli secret services are evil, and act in a heavy handed way against the religious Jews and the patriots in Israel. I know this, you know this, and I hope everyone reading this knows it.

But I don't like the whole entrapment idea. In my particular reasoning it seems that he wanted to do it, he did it... And no matter whether at first it was supposed to be blanks and Rabin was supposed to live is immaterial.

He is a hero because he did what had to be done. It is certainly not politically correct to say that. And I bet that now that I have said it I would have a hard time running as Prime Minister of Israel. But I say it with a heavy heart. The hope for peace in the middle east is a very crafty Yetzer Hara. I think every Jew can envision a time in the future when the whole world will live in peace, and the knowledge of Hashem will fill the land. But at this time we cannot dream of the world to come, we have to step up and act on what is right.

I do not want to inspire others to make such an incredible sacrifice. I know that there are times my mind wanders and I wonder if I have the fortitude to act so bravely. Knowing that my brother is a martyr and his name will live for centuries, and how I would like such an honor... It is more important to live in this world, and do mitzvot, than to sacrifice your life for the world to come.

The whole Rabin story is very disturbing. But I generally agree with your ideas.



You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2010, 11:04:36 PM »
I'm not sure what you are saying has anything to do with what I said.

At the end of the day, entrapped or not, he killed him in a vigilante killing.   Some people are against that on principle.
Unless you believe in the conspiracy theory that Shimon Peres had Rabin killed, Amir was forced to do what he did by Shabak agents.  

That is false.

Entrapment is not the same thing as being FORCED!

Quote

But let's pretend he just up and decided to assassinate Rabin on his own, which is NOT what happened. I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence, but it's kind of beyond dispute that Rabin was a kapo of the highest order--one who collaborated with the British and German Nazis during WWII, sinking the ships of Holocaust refugees, and later presided over a savage "dirty war" against Jewish rightists in the Irgun (culminating in the Altalena), and devoted his whole life to murdering his own people. How is the fact that he received judgment for his sins a bad thing?  

You are attacking straw men.  I don't view Rabin as anything but evil.   But that's not really the question here.  The question deals with the first part of what you said "I am a law-abiding person and do not believe in using violence..."    Moshe Feiglin is like you in that respect.

Quote
In what way did he "destroy" real resistance?    He thinks that having a presence inside the party can stop the likud treason.  Maybe you think he's wrong, but where should he have given all the money he received?  All those non-existent self-defense forces that are trying to shake off IDF dependence and establish self-reliance?
Quote
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it.  

I really don't think Guzofsky has raised millions of dollars, but I agree that Manhigut Yehudit has raised lots of dough.

Quote
The money that well-meaning right-wing Jews have given to "kahane".org and Feiglin's organization could have gone to JDL/JTF/Hayamin,

People can donate to both places, all Jews have to give 10% of their earnings to tzedaka and I'm not sure why funds to Feiglin took away funds from JTF.    Many of the people who know him have maybe never heard of JTF, and vice versa, and it's not as if there are billionaires writing out checks for Moshe feiglin and if these billionaires (don't think such people exist btw, just to be clear) were convinced that MY is doomed to fail, they would write out checks to JTF instead.    


Quote
I think Feiglin should disband his movement and work for Hayamin, personally, instead of competing with it.

That's certainly an interesting proposition.  Has Chaim floated that idea to Moshe?   And if so, or if not and it's your own idea only, I would be very interested to know how Moshe would work for hayamin.  Meaning, what practical measures would he take?

Quote
Quote
How does he compete with something that doesn't exist in Israel?   What are you talking about?
They are both right-wing movements that are trying to save Israel.

And it is my opinion that multiple such movements can exist and don't necessarily always "compete" or detract from one another.  Until there is an actual Israeli political movement and/or party, it really can't be said IMO that any party in Israel competes against us.

Quote
That's great but 1. that wasn't directed at you, it was said to Ron, and 2. he doesn't need YOUR forgiveness because he didn't do anything against you.
Quote
I care about the people of Israel (at least the non-self haters). Think about it--if I didn't care about Jews, would I post here?  

Irrelevant.  I never said you didn't care about Jews.  

If Jew X said something about Jew Y, no matter how much Jew Z doesn't like it, or gentile Z doesn't like it, Jew X does not need to ask forgiveness except from Jew Y whom he slandered.    Jew X has not committed a sin against you or me.

Quote
He slandered two great Jews, one of whom is a sacred martyr who knowingly went to his death to save Israelis in his village from a second Babi Yar. Pardon me if I have a low level of tolerance for spreading blood libel against such a holy tzaddik.

Huh?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2010, 11:07:41 PM »
I hear what you're saying muman.

I thought for a second it might have been a chamish invention (that he shot while on drugs), but incidentally, the idea that he confessed while on drugs might also be a chamish invention!   

In any case, I hear your point, and it's certainly not politically correct, but I'm glad it happened.

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #92 on: November 19, 2010, 03:04:42 AM »
No one gets hit by three 9mm slugs in the spine, spleen and lung, as the hospital report stated, and continues walking to his car and jumping in to it with vigour as if nothing had happened, as his bodyguard witnesses testified.

You will fall as if poleaxed and you will bleed - a lot.

Notice that not a drop of blood was left at the Plaza.

Rabin did take three bullets - but not at the Plaza - two a few minutes later in his limousine and one on the operating table.

Notice how this eyewitness leftist woman filmed minutes after the "shooting" emphatically exults that Rabin totally unhurt!

I remember seeing this woman live on the Israel news and thinking "Rabin is totally unhurt?! The assassin mucked up! What a shame!". And a few hours later that he was dead: "Halleluyah!"

« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 04:27:58 AM by wonga66 »

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2010, 02:47:09 PM »
Feiglin is superior to that kapo pig Guzofsky, but they do have one thing in common. Both run "right-wing" movements that have succeeded in raising millions of dollars (combined), but have virtually nothing to show for it.

Why exactly do you refer to Little Mike "Eagle Beak" Guzofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Guzovsky as a "kapo pig", the height of insult?!

Judging from this I thought he was one of the good guys!

« Last Edit: November 24, 2010, 02:52:49 PM by wonga66 »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2010, 08:03:36 PM »
Why exactly do you refer to Little Mike "Eagle Beak" Guzofsky http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Guzovsky as a "kapo pig", the height of insult?!

Judging from this I thought he was one of the good guys!
Sorry for insulting your lover.

Offline wonga66

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1039
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #95 on: November 25, 2010, 05:21:16 AM »
That's more than insult. That's מוצאי שם רע - the Torah punishment for which is that any merits you have are all transferred to Guzofsky, and any aveiros he has are added to yours! Well done!
« Last Edit: November 25, 2010, 05:26:27 AM by wonga66 »

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23384
  • Real Kahanist
Re: Why not a whisper from Feiglin?
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2010, 05:52:55 AM »
That's more than insult. That's מוצאי שם רע - the Torah punishment for which is that any merits you have are all transferred to Guzofsky, and any aveiros he has are added to yours! Well done!
Wow, you really have me worried.  ::) I'm SOOO scared G-d will judge me for criticizing the man who applauded when a Nazi was posting the photos and personal information of Jews on Pedofront!  :laugh: :::D