Are the people who were in power during disengagement being punished by G-D

[mord]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141484 







Former president Moshe Katzav, who has been found guilty of rape charges, has expressed a belief that the charges against him are divine punishment for his role in the 2005 expulsion from Gaza (Disengagement). So writes Moshe Feiglin, head of the Jewish Leadership faction in the Likud.
In a column penned for Maariv, Feiglin wrote Sunday that a central activist in the struggle against the Disengagement met Katzav after the scandal around him erupted. "Surprisingly and of his own initiative, Katzav turned to him and told him: 'I am not guilty of what they are accusing me of, but I know that this is happening to me because of the way I treated you [in the original Hebrew, the plural 'you' was used - ed.].'"
 
"This understanding shows that the man had more than just a thought of repentance and it certainly is to his credit and praise," Feiglin added.
 
There are numerous adherents, not all of them religious, to the belief in the "Disengagement curse" - a heavenly retribution for the Disengagement, which has afflicted many of the key players in that act of violent expulsion and retreat.
 
The Our Land of Israel organization has distributed hundreds of thousands of copies of a list of the "curse victims" throughout Israel's synagogues. The list includes:
 

    * Ariel Sharon, the prime minister who carried out the Disengagement, who suffered a stroke shortly afterward and has been in a coma ever since.
    * Sharon's son and close political aide, Omri, who served a jail sentence for corruption.
    * Chaim Ramon, a senior minister in Sharon's government and a lead proponent of the Disengagement, who was found guilty of sexual offenses and sentenced to community service.
    * Dan Halutz, who was IDF Chief of Staff, and had to resign after an investigative committee blamed him for botching the Second Lebanon War.
    * Moshe Karadi, who was Chief of Police, who was forced to resign after a committee of inquiry found fault with his actions in an investigation regarding organized crime. 
    * Ehud Olmert, who was Sharon's deputy during the Disengagement and supported the policy when he replaced Sharon as prime minister. Olmert had to resign after being charged with corruption and is facing criminal prosecution.
    * Uri Bar-Lev, who was Commander of the Police's Southern District, who has recently had to suspend himself after allegations of sexual misconduct.
    * Tzachi HaNegbi, a member of Sharon's government who has had to resign from the Knesset after being found guilty of corruption.
    * Avraham Hirschson, who was a minister in the Kadima government and is serving a jail sentence for embezzlement.
    * Yonatan Bassi, who headed the Disengagement Authority and had to leave his own community because of the public anger against him.

One glaring example of a person who is doing relatively well despite his key role in the Disengagement is Shaul Mofaz, who was Minister of Defense during the expulsion and is currently a Knesset Member for Kadima.
Orthodox Jews do not attempt to understand the workings of G-dly reward and punishment. However, there are other ways of interpreting the list. The list shows the moral level the people who were allowed to make the fateful decisions that threw thousands of people out of their homes, destroyed an entire area, and brought rockets to the communities of southern Israel.
 
 "G-d's very unique way of meting out mercy tempered with justice can never truly be understood by mere mortals," wrote Moshe Kempinski in Arutz Sheva. "Yet, on a human and mortal level, the process of "measure for measure" is very clear and compelling.  The same small-minded and selfish, immediate-gain focus that spawned Sharon's Disengagement Plan led to the creation of the Kadima party and ensured the rise of small-minded, selfish and greed-focused politicians... It is these same politicians and leaders that continued their reign focused on power, money and selfishness... t is no wonder that it is those very traits that brought all these politicians and leaders down, measure for measure."

[Debbie Shafer]

I believe in Divine Punishment.  People know right from wrong and whether they are doing a disservice to others for political gains.   Watch 2011 as the Truth comes out in tidal waves.  God will Smoke them out, You can run, but you can't Hide.

[mord]

I believe in Divine Punishment.  People know right from wrong and whether they are doing a disservice to others for political gains.   Watch 2011 as the Truth comes out in tidal waves.  G-d will Smoke them out, You can run, but you can't Hide.

I can only pray for that

[Secularbeliever]

Hard to say.  The expulsion victims suffered a great deal also.  Sharon was grossly obese and in danger of cardiovascular disease for years.  Katsav chose to put his genetilia where it did not belong.  I suspect he would have done that without Gush Katif.  He might have gotten in trouble sooner in that the left wing judiciary probably gave him every break after Gush Katif.

[Ithaca-37]

For whatever its worth, I've heard plenty of traditional Protestant preachers say similar stuff, in keeping with that text in Genesis where God promises Jacob (aka 'Israel', and going from memory here), "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

In fact, one minister was adamant in noting that Katrina (and George W Bush's subsequent politically disastrous response) occured right on the heels of GWB pressuring the Israelis on negotiations with the Palestinians.

37

[muman613]

For whatever its worth, I've heard plenty of traditional Protestant preachers say similar stuff, in keeping with that text in Genesis where G-d promises Jacob (aka 'Israel', and going from memory here), "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you".

In fact, one minister was adamant in noting that Katrina (and George W Bush's subsequent politically disastrous response) occured right on the heels of GWB pressuring the Israelis on negotiations with the Palestinians.

37

Shalom Ithaca-37,

Just so you know... It was Abraham and not Jacob/Israel to whom Hashem promised to Bless/Curse...



http://www.aish.com/tp/ss/ssw/48950716.html

Torah Portion of the Week
Lech Lecha

The Almighty commands Avram (later renamed Avraham) to leave Haran and go to the "place that I will show you" (which turned out to be the land of Canaan - later renamed the Land of Israel). The Almighty then gives Avram an eternal message to the Jewish people and to the nations of the world, "I will bless those who bless you and he who curses you I will curse." Finding a famine, Avram travels to Egypt (once renamed to be part of the United Arab Republic) asking Sarai (later renamed Sarah), to say she is his sister so they won't kill him to marry her (the Egyptians were particular not to commit adultery).

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Most of Israel was behind "disengagement". Are 62% of the Israeli people going to be punished?

[Ithaca-37]

"Most of Israel was behind "disengagement". Are 62% of the Israeli people going to be punished?"

Allow me to run back to those same aforementioned 'traditionalist' ministers:  They would say that Western nations (and that includes Israel) are indeed being punished for their lack of adherence to God's law and their refusal to accept His grace.  In what form is this punishment being administered?  Lousy political leadership  That was the same method used in Tanach times, with the Jews straying, followed shortly thereafter with rotten kings coming to the throne.

You can take it or leave it, but that's what they would tell you.  Personally, I believe it.

And I stand corrected on that blessing /curse phrase, to Abraham and not Jacob.

37

[IsraelForever]

If they were being punished, then were the 6 Million being punished?  What is the consensus on this here?

[muman613]

If they were being punished, then were the 6 Million being punished?  What is the consensus on this here?

There are some sages who consider the Holocaust as a punishment for the lax observance of Judaism by Germanys Jews. It is not a widely accepted opinion but it is out there. I personally don't believe that everyone who died in the Chorban deserved to die. But there is a concept in the Torah called collective responsibility. Through this many Jews can die in an 'evil decree' such as the evil decrees which resulted in our being enslaved in Egypt, our sojourn in Babylon with Haman and his henchmen, up till today including the Holocaust.

Sometimes the righteous die because of the sins of the wicked. These righteous of the generation should have done something to lift up the wicked... But since they ignored their brothers and sisters, they too were punished with the evil doers.

I realize I did not fully explore this concept, but it is a difficult one to discuss, especially with those who have surviving family members... But I fully believe that this works today, and that my brothers death on 9/11 was a part of an 'evil decree' which caused righteous to die with the wicked...

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm

[muman613]

Chabads Rebbe rejects the concept of the Holocaust as a divine punishment:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108398/jewish/Belief-After-the-Holocaust.htm

Was the Holocaust a punishment?

There are those who wish to suggest that the Holocaust was a punishment for the sins of that generation.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe rejects this view. He stated (Sefer HaSichot 5751 Vol.1 p.233):

    The destruction of six million Jews in such a horrific manner that surpassed the cruelty of all previous generations, could not possibly be because of a punishment for sins. Even the Satan himself could not possibly find a sufficient number of sins that would warrant such genocide!

    There is absolutely no rationalistic explanation for the Holocaust except for the fact that it was a Divine decree … why it happened is above human comprehension – but it is definitely not because of punishment for sin.

    On the contrary: All those who were murdered in the Holocaust are called “Kedoshim” – holy ones – since they were murdered in sanctification of G–d’s name. Since they were Jews, it is only G–d who will avenge their blood. As we say on Shabbat in the Av Harachamim prayer, “the holy communities who gave their lives for the sanctification of the Divine Name ... and avenge the spilled blood of His servants, as it is written in the Torah of Moshe ... for he will avenge the blood of his servants ... And in the Holy Writings it is said ... Let there be known among the nations, before our eyes, the retribution of the spilled blood of your servants.” G–d describes those who were sanctified as His servants, and promises to avenge their blood.

    So great is the spiritual level of the Kedoshim – even disregarding their standing in mitzvah performance – that the Rabbis say about them, “no creation can stand in their place.” How much more so of those who died in the Holocaust, many of whom, as is well known, were among the finest of Europe’s Torah scholars and observant Jews.

    It is inconceivable that the Holocaust be regarded as an example of punishment for sin, in particular when addressing this generation, which as mentioned before is “a firebrand plucked from the fire” of the Holocaust.

In short, one can only apply the words of Isaiah, “My thoughts are not your thoughts and My ways are not your ways, says the L–rd.” (Isaiah 55:8)

[muman613]

But here is a discussion of how the reform movements chutzpah may have brought about the evil decree against the Jewish people...


http://www.shemayisrael.com/rabbiforsythe/holocaust.htm

.
.
.
In the Aseress HaDibros ("Ten Commandments"), G-d tells us that He will wait for up to four generations for those who leave Torah, and for their descendants who continue abandonment of it. A Biblical generation is forty years, so four generations is 160 years. The reform movement started IN GERMANY 160 years before the beginning of World War Two. Jews left Torah in droves so that there were only a small minority who remained frum in Germany by the onset of the war. The Reform Jews abandoned and ridiculed Yiddishkeit. A favored expression was, "Be a Jew in the home and a man on the street."

The Meshech Chochma (a commentary on the Torah written about 1870) wrote on the tochacha in Leviticus that German unreligious Jewry was making Germany and its culture their idolatry, and it was making Berlin for them what Jerusalem is to Torah Jewry, and that the punishments written in the Torah will come against them from Berlin for their defection from Torah and its commandments. The unreligious German Jew stood by his belief in the culture, civilization and alleged progress of Germans. Hashem cut them down and cast their carcasses on the idolatry which they left Hashem for!

The midrash says that during the ninth plague in Egypt (thick darkness), 80 percent of the Jewish people died. This was because they were satisfied with the culture, convenience and civilization of Egypt. They had no wish to be the people of the Torah. G-d, therefore, had no wish to have anything to do with them. They died in Egypt during the days of darkness. By the onset of World War Two, 80% of European Jewry was no longer religious. This matches the midrash. Eighty percent seems to be a "breaking point" in population, while 160 years is a "breaking point" in time. Those who converted, intermarried or denied Yiddishkeit were fooled. Hitler declared death for anyone who was one-eighth Jewish (one great-grandparent). This is especially chilling because this means a person of the FOURTH generation would be killed for his and his ancestors' attempt to flee G-d and Torah!
.
.
.

[Zelhar]

I think it is a mistake for laymen to seek for signs of divine justice on this world. For every such evidence I can bring you like 50 counter evidence of evil people who are doing fine and another 50 for good people who got more than their share of troubles.

[muman613]

I think it is a mistake for laymen to seek for signs of divine justice on this world. For every such evidence I can bring you like 50 counter evidence of evil people who are doing fine and another 50 for good people who got more than their share of troubles.

But there is no question that evil people will prosper while the righteous suffer. That is not going to challenge a Jew who has complete emmunah. I just listened to Rabbi Lazer Brody talk about Emunah, which encompasses belief in Hashem no matter what happens good or bad. Every bad thing that happens in this world is from Hashem, there is NO OTHER force in the world which controls every aspect of reality. So why should we not try to learn from the bad things which have happened to us?

As I originally said, it is difficult to comprehend how divine justice works. And I am not a prophet, nor do I have Ruach HaKodesh, but I try to learn from our sages. You know that we believe that HASHEM is the one who destroyed our Holy Temple, through the actions of the Romans... You know that the KING in the Purim story, Megillah Esther, is a reference to HASHEM himself... That the evil decree of Purim was decreed from Heaven above...

We should learn from the bad things which happened to us. This does not mean in any way that the poor and innocent Jews who were killed so callously by the german dogs deserved this horrible Holocaust. The Torah says what will happen to us when we ignore the Torah and worship other cultures.

I hope that we can learn emmunah from this...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Radio/News.aspx/2769

Arrogant people are easily susceptible to sadness and depression. When a person learns how to depend on Hashem, life becomes pleasurable. There's no such thing as despair for a person with faith.

[Ari Ben-Canaan]

I think it is a mistake for laymen to seek for signs of divine justice on this world. For every such evidence I can bring you like 50 counter evidence of evil people who are doing fine and another 50 for good people who got more than their share of troubles.

Indeed.

Sometimes I think the wicked prosper because it is in many ways lucrative to do evil.  If doing evil had no enticing qualities would anyone do it?  This is why evil is a temptation, and a mitzvah to not give in to the temptation. -- Of course the end result [and true lucrativeness] of doing evil is the result of judgment by HaShem [an observation mortal man can not witness!].

---

I think the fact that all of the people who were behind the expulsion were criminal in other areas aside from the expulsion is a great example of the character of the people directly involved in the expulsion.

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

In this world, it is the norm that evil people prosper and the righteous suffer. That is basic observable fact that is supported by the Bible. Most judgment appears to be in the afterlife. However, look at what happened to the beasts Ronald Reagan, Ariel Sharon, and Yasser Arafat.

Also, as I've commented, one notes that evil Jews often have the physical appearance of Arabs--seemingly a divine curse.

[Zelhar]

DBF, even evil people have to die eventually of natural causes.

For example, Sharon was a fat pig, actually, he weighted like a a baby whale. His stroke is very likely the result of his life of excess and indulgence. Even so, he lived a full life and as of now his legacy seems intact.

Reagan was just old and he got Alzheimer like 30% or so of people who reach their late 80s.

And Arafat- he must've forgot to wear protection on one of his orgies... nothing unnatural there too.