Brits find bones of murdered Jews at bottom of well from 10TH century

[mord]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13855238    







Jewish bodies found in medieval well in Norwich
Graphic showing the skeletons in the well There is evidence the children were thrown down the well after the adults
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    Professor Black in Kosovo
    Q&A: Jews in Britain

The remains of 17 bodies found at the bottom of a medieval well in England could have been victims of persecution, new evidence has suggested.

The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish and were probably murdered or forced to commit suicide, according to scientists who used a combination of DNA analysis, carbon dating and bone chemical studies in their investigation.

The skeletons date back to the 12th or 13th Centuries at a time when Jewish people were facing persecution throughout Europe.

They were discovered in 2004 during an excavation of a site in the centre of Norwich, ahead of construction of the Chapelfield Shopping Centre. The remains were put into storage and have only recently been the subject of investigation.

Seven skeletons were successfully tested and five of them had a DNA sequence suggesting they were likely to be members of a single Jewish family.

DNA expert Dr Ian Barnes, who carried out the tests, said: "This is a really unusual situation for us. This is a unique set of data that we have been able to get for these individuals.

"I am not aware that this has been done before - that we have been able to pin them down to this level of specificity of the ethnic group that they seem to come from."
'Ethnic cleansing'

The team has been led by forensic anthropologist Professor Sue Black, of the University of Dundee's Centre for Anthropology and Human Identification.
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Find out more
The Cold Case team: Professor Sue Black, Dr Xanthe Mallett and Professor Caroline Wilkinson

    History Cold Case: The Bodies in the Well will be on BBC Two at 2100 BST on Thursday 23 June 2011
    Professor Sue Black, Dr Xanthe Mallett and Professor Caroline Wilkinson will delve deeper into the mystery and attempt to recreate the faces of those found in the well

    Read more about the programme
    Catch up on BBC iPlayer

Professor Black, who went to the Balkans following the Kosovo war - where her job was to piece together the bodies of massacred Kosovan Albanians - said this discovery had changed the direction of the whole investigation.

Regarding the nature of the discovery, Professor Black said: "We are possibly talking about persecution. We are possibly talking about ethnic cleansing and this all brings to mind the scenario that we dealt with during the Balkan War crimes."

Eleven of the 17 skeletons were those of children aged between two and 15. The remaining six were adult men and women.

"In terms of the brutality of the ethnic cleansing, it was thought women and children quite frankly weren't worth wasting the bullets on," added Professor Black.

"Pregnant women were bayoneted because that way you got rid of a woman because that wasn't important and you got rid of the next generation because you didn't want them to survive. So I know what sort of pattern I am looking for."
Cushioned fall

Pictures taken at the time of excavation suggested the bodies were thrown down the well together, head first.
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Medieval Jewish History

1066: The Norman Conquest opens the way to Jewish immigration. The monarchy needs to borrow money and Christians are forbidden to lend money at interest. London, Lincoln and York become centres for substantial Jewish populations.

1100s: Resentment against the Jewish community grows over their perceived wealth and belief they killed Jesus. The "blood libels" - Jews are accused of the ritual murder of Christian children.

1190: Many Jewish people massacred in York. In Norwich they flee to the city's castle for refuge. Those who stay in their homes are butchered.

1230s: Executions in Norwich after an allegation a Christian child was kidnapped.

1272: Edward I comes to the throne and enforces extra taxes on the Jewish community.

1290: Edward I expels the Jews en masse after devising a new form of royal financing using Christian knights to fill the coffers.

    Read more - Q&A: Jews in Britain

A close examination of the adult bones showed fractures caused by the impact of hitting the bottom of the well. But the same damage was not seen on the children's bones, suggesting they were thrown in after the adults who cushioned the fall of their bodies.

The team had earlier considered the possibility of death by disease but the bone examination also showed no evidence of diseases such as leprosy or tuberculosis.

Giles Emery, the archaeologist who led the original excavation, said at first he thought it might have been a plague burial, but carbon dating had shown that to be impossible as the plague came much later.

And historians pointed out that even during times of plague when mass graves were used, bodies were buried in an ordered way with respect and religious rites.

Norwich had been home to a thriving Jewish community since 1135 and many lived near the well site. But there are records of persecution of Jews in medieval England including in Norwich (see fact box).

Sophie Cabot, an archaeologist and expert on Norwich's Jewish history, said the Jewish people had been invited to England by the King to lend money because at the time, the Christian interpretation of the bible did not allow Christians to lend money and charge interest. It was regarded as a sin.

So cash finance for big projects came from the Jewish community and some became very wealthy - which in turn, caused friction.

"There is a resentment of the fact that Jews are making money... and they are doing it in a way that doesn't involve physical labour, things that are necessarily recognised as work... like people feel about bankers now," said Ms Cabot.

The findings of the investigation represented a sad day for Norwich.

Ms Cabot added: "It changes the story of what we know about the community. We don't know everything about the community but what we do know is changed by this."

History Cold Case: The Bodies in a Well will be on BBC Two at 2100 BST on Thursday 23 June 2011 and afterwards in the UK on BBC iPlayer.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed.  What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.   

And in modern times they love muslims.    They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.

[IsraelForever]

This is beyond upsetting.  If this won't bring tears to your eyes....!! 

And yet, multiply this times 6 million and you have the Holocaust.

G-d bless Israel and keep her strong and large and powerful for all time.  If the Jews won't have Israel, what will they have?  And may the Lord smite anyone who tries to take away one inch from Eretz Yisrael (אֶרֶץ יִשְׂרָאֵל).

NEVER AGAIN!

[lines]

Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed.  What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.  

And in modern times they love muslims.    They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.

This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?

[IsraelForever]

This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?

That's wonderful; but, to be fair, they didn't fight Hitler to save the Jews.  And, of course, neither did we.  So I think you're trying to give credit where credit is not due.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is very upsetting news but what about the british people who fought Hitler, doesn't that count for something?

You mean while they banned Jewish immigration to Eretz Yisrael and day after day thousands of Jews were burned and gassed in Europe, but all to please muslims, they kept the Jews OUT of Eretz Yisrael, and meanwhile they "fought hitler" on the battlefield since he bombed them and they didnt want him to take control of all of europe since they wanted their own hegemony over Europe, and I'm supposed to feel good about it?    The British are sick and deserve whatever they get from the Muslims.  A british person should be ashamed to be British and I could appreciate that.

[Aces High]

The Jews always get screwed over.  Families thrown down  wells by the English and blocked from Israel, 6 million gassed by Germans, tens of thousands murdered in Polish Pogroms, thousands bombed and knifed by Arabs....you name it.  We finally  have Israel, with a powerful army and airforce, to protect us.  However, Israel has leaders who don't want to protect Jews, but rather have Israel commit suicide by turning the state of Israel against her own Jews, all to further their own careers and appease the left.

[edu]

A few months before the outbreak of WWII the British established a "White Paper" with the intention within ten years of turning all of Israel over to the Arab majority which wanted to throw us into the sea.
By the way the Arabs had a majority at that time because, Britain allowed/encouraged illegal Arab immigration from other lands into Israel and put many barriers to Jewish immigration and land purchase.

[Aces High]

The Jews always get screwed over.  Families thrown down  wells by the English and blocked from Israel, 6 million gassed by Germans, tens of thousands murdered in Polish Pogroms, thousands bombed and knifed by Arabs....you name it.  We finally  have Israel, with a powerful army and airforce, to protect us.  However, Israel has leaders who don't want to protect Jews, but rather have Israel commit suicide by turning the state of Israel against her own Jews, all to further their own careers and appease the left.

If Obama wins again, he will strong arm his Jew,  Flunky Netenyahu, to finish final status talks, for a "Palestinian State."

[BritishSword]

This is very sad and rather creepy.
  Although I think its a little much to ask someone to feel ashamed for something that took place a thousand years ago. In medieval times everyone was a bastard, period. All sorts of bloody punishments and barbaric wars.

Have no fear though, I throw my hands up in disgust at the Britain of recent history. Seems nobody learns the lessons of the past.

[angryChineseKahanist]

AKA "the usual".
They usually get persecuted one way or another.

[TruthSpreader]

Anyone born of British stock should be ashamed.  What vicious cruel animals they were collectively.   

And in modern times they love muslims.    They actually did the reverse process - first they were cruel to the merciful, THEN they were kind to the cruel.

Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?

[muman613]

Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?

Anyone who is proud of their antisemitic ancestors should be rebuked... It seems that Brittan has not changed its ways.

I dont hold those descendants personally responsible for the deeds of their fathers but they are responsible for any lingering antisemitic feelings.

What I have heard about this case is that the Jewish victims have not even been treated fairly to this day. This was discovered in 2004 and the victims have yet to have a real Jewish burial. If these were not Jews you can bet that they would be resting in peace but since they are Jews their remains are being left to rot, treated worse than American Indian remains in America.

[muman613]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/10353

The Jewish Martyrs of Norwich
Sivan 25, 5771, 27 June 11 08:44
by Victor Sharpe

(Israelnationalnews.com) The news of the discovery in Norwich, England of a presumed mass murder of Jewish men, women and children that took place in medieval times has left hardly a ripple, especially among the present day Anglo-Jewish community. This is passing strange as it now appears that the bodies – all 17 of them – were found as long ago as 2004 and have been kept in storage all that time without decent or respectful burial.

The remains were discovered during the construction of a new shopping center and researchers from the Center for Anatomy and Human Identification at Dundee University have deduced that all 17 bodies were thrown head first down a well in either the 12th or 13th centuries.

The conclusion from DNA research is that they were Jews and that at least five were from the same family.

Eleven of the bodies were of children from the ages of 2 to 15 with five of them below the age of five.

England was no different from most of Christendom during the Medieval period and beyond. Europe then was as much a charnel house for the stateless and hapless Jews as it was during the Holocaust. The same relentless hatred of the Jews lay like a psychosis among the vast majority of Europeans and England was no exception.

Today that same aberrant behavior manifests itself in unfounded hatred towards the Jewish state and in a perverse ultra-support for the Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

In England, a catastrophe broke upon the Jews during the Third Crusade (1189-1192) when the coronation of Richard Coeur de Lion took place. Anti-Jewish mobs attacked and murdered Jews from Norwich to Dunstable and throughout many English towns because of a false rumor that King Richard had ordered the Jews who had come to honor him at the palace to be turned away.

During the king’s absence while on the crusade, the Jewish community of York tried to find refuge in the lord's castle from ravening mobs bent on the Jews’ destruction. Rather than fall into the hands of the fanatical mob, the Jews, at least 150 in humber,  took their own lives on March 17th, 1190.

Rabbi Yom Tov ben Isaac uttered these final words: “It is plainly the will of G-d of our Fathers that we die for his holy Law. And lo, death is at our door … for if we fall into their hands, we shall die in mockery at their arbitrary choice.”  A rabbinic ban (cherem) prohibited Jewish residence in York after that pogrom.

Peter Abelard, the French scholar, himself a victim of persecution by the Church, was a lone voice in sympathizing with the harried and tormented Jews throughout so much of Europe. He wrote in 1135: “No nation has undergone such sufferings for G-d. Scattered among all the nations, having neither king nor secular prince, the Jews are oppressed with heavy taxes as if they must buy their lives anew every day … The Jews are not permitted to own fields and vineyards … Thus the only livelihood that remains to them is usury, and this in turn excites the hatred of the Christians.”

One of the earliest cases of blood libel, the rumors of ritual murder falsely spread against the Jews. was recorded in the same Norwich, England. In 1146, the local Jews were accused of having kidnapped, tortured and killed a Christian boy before the Passover. Thus began the blood libel that spread throughout Christendom and resulted for centuries in the massacres of countless Jewish victims.  In Poland and Russia at Easter time, which so often corresponds with the Passover festival, Jews were routinely slaughtered in pogroms.

In short, the discovery of the 17 presumably Jewish bodies in the Norwich well attests to the anti-Jewish hatred that permeated every facet of medieval life throughout Christendom from the Popes to the secular kings and princes on down to the peasants.

That these bodies have been in storage since 2004 with, as far as I am aware, apparently no outrage expressed by the Anglo-Jewish community or its representative Board of Deputies is deplorable.  If this story is true, then the  bodies of the murdered Jews should immediately be flown to Israel – the Jewish biblical and ancestral homeland – where they will be given the appropriate and dignified burial according to the laws of Moses.

If it has not already taken place, I hope Britain’s Chief Rabbi, Jonathan Sachs, will be addressing this appalling situation.

One can only imagine the riots in British streets if these skeletons had been identified as belonging to Muslims and were being treated in this manner.

Inflamed Christians leaving their respective churches during medieval times, and bent on murdering Jews after hearing vitriolic and hateful anti-Jewish sermons from their priests, were no different from today’s Muslims who leave their mosques with a blood lust after hearing their imams preach anti-Christian, anti-Jewish, anti-Hindu and anti-Buddhist diatribes.

In contrast, Christians in America have historically eschewed the hate that their European coreligionists spewed for centuries. Indeed, millions of American Christians have embraced the Jewish roots of their faith and have been stalwart friends of the reborn Jewish state. Their support has been an immense encouragement to embattled Israel whose enemies encompass it with growing strength and enmity.

Sadly, however, too many liberal churches and denominations in the United States have fallen victim to the lies and modern day anti-Israel blood libels spewed by the likes of the Rev. Naim Ateek and his Sabeel organization – an appendage of the Saudi and oil rich Arab funded anti-Jewish and anti-Israel Palestinian propaganda campaign; a repetitious catalogue of calumnies against the Jewish state that surely gives the ghost of Josef Goebbels great delight.

So if indeed the bodies in the well turn out to be Jewish victims and martyrs, Israel should immediately demand that they be transferred to the Jewish state as the only decent site for their Jewish burial.

So too should a memorial be erected in Norwich to the martyred Jews, just as a plaque exists in York commemorating the martyred Jews of that city.

[Rubystars]

Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?

Stick around long enough and you'll find out some people will put just about any European ethnicity on the 'Amalek' list sooner or later, except maybe Serbs. 

[Alex37]

Noticed the antisemitic joke? "The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish..." - Reminds you something?

[Rubystars]

Noticed the antisemitic joke? "The most likely explanation is that those down the well were Jewish..." - Reminds you something?

Borat?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Stick around long enough and you'll find out some people will put just about any European ethnicity on the 'Amalek' list sooner or later, except maybe Serbs. 

Funny I never mentioned Amalek.  Care to elaborate?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Does this include the millions of Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders who happen to be of British descent?

Well I guess it does then.   They should be ashamed of whatever part of them is British in that case.

Unless you are proud of what they've done.  If so, go ahead and say so.   

[briann]

Anyone who is proud of their antisemitic ancestors should be rebuked... It seems that Brittan has not changed its ways.

I dont hold those descendants personally responsible for the deeds of their fathers but they are responsible for any lingering antisemitic feelings.

What I have heard about this case is that the Jewish victims have not even been treated fairly to this day. This was discovered in 2004 and the victims have yet to have a real Jewish burial. If these were not Jews you can bet that they would be resting in peace but since they are Jews their remains are being left to rot, treated worse than American Indian remains in America.

Well said.  I think its the lingering antisemitic feelings that are an issue.   And I think this has found its way to modern British liberalism.  Remember, there are British school districts that have decided to no longer teach the holocaust since it offends Muslim sensibilities.  This kinda of ridiculous response to Islam has at least some of its roots in historic Jew hating.

I know that many Brits arent the same Jew-haters as their ancestors, but its still a major problem.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Well I guess it does then.   They should be ashamed of whatever part of them is British in that case.

Unless you are proud of what they've done.  If so, go ahead and say so.  

I would not put Americans in the same basket as the British (as far as antisemitism is concerned).
The Americans fought the British to get their independence just like the Israelis fought the British to get their independence. The Americans were not a colonial empire like the British.
The Americans have never been in love with the Arabs like the British.
It was not the Americans who were in charge of the territory called Palestine before 1948 and who led the disastrous antisemitic policy there, it was the British.
Today, despite the powerful global campaign of delegitimization of Israel, a majority of Americans still support Israel, whereas the vast majority of the British are viciously anti-Israel and pro-Arab.
America has made a number of mistakes, but the fact is that America remains the best ally, perhaps the only ally, of Israel - of course I am not talking about Obama, I am talking about the real America. The Jews should not always blame Gentiles, especially righteous Gentiles, for the problems they face. The worst ennemies of the Jews are the self-hating Jews.

[BritishSword]

You mean while they banned Jewish immigration to Eretz Yisrael and day after day thousands of Jews were burned and gassed in Europe, but all to please muslims, they kept the Jews OUT of Eretz Yisrael, and meanwhile they "fought hitler" on the battlefield since he bombed them and they didnt want him to take control of all of europe since they wanted their own hegemony over Europe, and I'm supposed to feel good about it?    The British are sick and deserve whatever they get from the Muslims.  A british person should be ashamed to be British and I could appreciate that.

Thats certainly true of the government but not of the frontline troops. I remember seeing a holocaust documentary and a veteran was recounting the liberation of the concentration camps. He was choked up with tears even though the events had taken place over fifty years ago. He couldn't comprehend what could cause people to treat fellow human beings so barbarically. He cared.
  He said history must draw a line in the sand and say no more of this.
There are good british people they're just really well hidden.

[TruthSpreader]

I would not put Americans in the same basket as the British (as far as antisemitism is concerned).
The Americans fought the British to get their independence just like the Israelis fought the British to get their independence. The Americans were not a colonial empire like the British.
The Americans have never been in love with the Arabs like the British.
It was not the Americans who were in charge of the territory called Palestine before 1948 and who led the disastrous antisemitic policy there, it was the British.
Today, despite the powerful global campaign of delegitimization of Israel, a majority of Americans still support Israel, whereas the vast majority of the British are viciously anti-Israel and pro-Arab.
America has made a number of mistakes, but the fact is that America remains the best ally, perhaps the only ally, of Israel - of course I am not talking about Obama, I am talking about the real America. The Jews should not always blame Gentiles, especially righteous Gentiles, for the problems they face. The worst ennemies of the Jews are the self-hating Jews.

Exactly. I believe that self-hating Jews are the reason why so many people in this world hate the Jews.

[Zelhar]

I noticed the title erroneously says 10th century. As far as I know the pre-Norman Celts and Anglo-Saxons of the British isles weren't particularly oppressive towards the Jews.

[Rubystars]

Funny I never mentioned Amalek.  Care to elaborate?

I don't think people of English descent need to be ashamed about something that happened hundreds of years ago. They couldn't possibly have committed that crime because they weren't born then.

The better response to this is to encourage people not to be anti-Semitic today rather than throwing a guilt trip on people who aren't anyway.