Author Topic: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?  (Read 1987 times)

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Offline White Israelite

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Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« on: September 23, 2011, 12:36:20 PM »
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/09/110923-neutrinos-speed-of-light-particles-cern-physics-einstein-science/

Ker Than
for National Geographic News
Published September 23, 2011

Neutrinos—ghostly subatomic particles—may have been observed traveling faster than the speed of light, scientists announced this week.

If confirmed, the astonishing claim would upend a cardinal rule of physics established by Albert Einstein nearly a century ago.

"Most theorists believe that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. So if this is true, it would rock the foundations of physics," said Stephen Parke, head of the theoretical physics department at the U.S. government-run Fermilab near Chicago, Illinois.

(Related: "Proton Smaller Than Thought—May Rewrite Laws of Physics.")

The existence of faster-than-light particles would also wreak havoc on scientific theories of cause and effect.

"If things travel faster than the speed of light, A can cause B, [but] B can also cause A," Parke said.

"If that happens, the concept of causality becomes ambiguous, and that would cause a great deal of trouble."

Don't Bet on Breaking Light Speed

Members of the Oscillation Project with Emulsion-tRacking Apparatus, or OPERA, at the European Center for Nuclear Research (CERN) described the unusual neutrino detection in a paper published this week on the research website arXiv.org.

The team shot neutrinos out of a particle accelerator near Geneva, Switzerland, and measured how long it took the particles to travel to a neutrino detector in Gran Sasso, Italy, 450 miles (724 kilometers) away.

(See pictures of a neutrino detector 1.5 miles [2.4 kilometers] under Antarctic ice.)

Neutrinos are subatomic particles that have almost no mass and can zip through entire planets as if they are not there.

Being nearly massless, neutrinos should travel at nearly the speed of light, which is approximately 186,000 miles (299,338 kilometers) a second.

To the astonishment of the OPERA team, the particles appear to have reached their destination about 60 nanoseconds faster than expected.

A nanosecond may not sound like much, but "the effect is quite large," said Fermilab's Parke, who was not part of the CERN team.

The extra speed would mean that, over a distance of 621 miles (1,000 kilometers), neutrinos travel about 66 feet (20 meters) farther than light travels in the same amount of time.

The results would be "revolutionary" if true, Parke said, but he added that he highly doubts the findings will hold up under closer scrutiny.

"If I was a betting man, I would bet against it," he said. "Your first response is it can't possibly be true, that they must have made a mistake."

Neutrino Speed an Instrument Error?

Parke is not alone in his skepticism. Many physicists have speculated that the OPERA results are due to a measurement or instrument error.

It would not be the first time such an error occurred, said Louis Strigari, an astrophysicist at Stanford University also not on the CERN team.

"There have been several instances where, through no fault of the experimenters, the equipment was not understood as well as it needed to be," Strigari said.

"It just so happens that you learn more as you get more data and you understand the machinery a little better."

Even the OPERA team is cautious about its results and is welcoming other researchers to repeat the neutrino experiment.

"We want just to be helped by the community in understanding our crazy result—because it is crazy," Antonio Ereditato, coordinator of the OPERA collaboration, told the BBC.

Supernova Neutrinos Not So Speedy

Dave Goldberg, an astrophysicist at Philadelphia's Drexel University, said that if faster-than-light neutrinos did exist, they would likely have been observed in nature before now.

For example, in 1987 detectors on Earth identified neutrinos and photons—light particles—from an exploding star. Both types of particles reached our planet at almost exactly the same instance.

(Related: "Supernova Caught Starting to Explode for First Time.")

According to Goldberg's calculations, if neutrinos travel faster than light by the amount the OPERA team claims, then neutrinos from that supernova should have been detected in 1984—three years before the photons.

"It's possible, but unlikely," Goldberg said, that detectors active on Earth at the time would have missed such an obvious spike in cosmic neutrinos.

Goldberg concedes that supernova neutrinos are less energetic—and would thus be traveling slower—than the neutrinos from CERN's particle accelerator.

However, "assuming Einstein was correct, both types [of neutrinos] would be moving at something like 99.999999999 percent the speed of light," Goldberg said in an email.

"In other words, from a measurement point of view, they'd be going at essentially identical speeds."

(Also see "Einstein Theories Confirmed by NASA Gravity Probe.")

Relativity Still Very Close to Right

Even if the OPERA results are confirmed by other scientists, they wouldn't totally invalidate Einstein's theories of general and special relativity, Stanford University's Strigari stressed. Those theories still explain a remarkable range of observed phenomena in the universe.

"I think it's long been understood that the theories we have today aren't the full answers," Strigari said.

"If this observation holds up, then it's probably a good piece of evidence that the theories we currently have need to be reworked."

Drexel University's Goldberg agreed that physicists won't be discarding Einstein's theories anytime soon.

"Even if relativity turned out to be wrong," he said, "it's clearly very, very close to being right."

Offline briann

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 01:55:44 PM »
If this is confirmed.... it will have HUGE implications for theoretical physics.   

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 01:57:14 PM »
I thought it was going to be 10x the speed of light or something.
I don't see the execitment. Its lighter than light particles.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline muman613

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 02:50:17 PM »
Oy.... We really know nothing and every year we know we know less and less... How many times during my life have we had to disregard everything we learned about science? And I'll be willing to bet this theory too will be discarded some time in the future..

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
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Offline Meerkat

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 05:34:22 PM »
thats kinda how science works, new evidence always comes in. we will see where this goes.

Offline muman613

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 05:54:23 PM »
thats kinda how science works, new evidence always comes in. we will see where this goes.

I have recently read that they are not even sure of the results which were announced. It would have been wiser to wait to reproduce the results before announcing them..
http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2011/09/neutrino-results-depend-on-exquisite-measurements-of-time-space.ars

Quote


As a spokesperson for the MINOS neutrino experiment told Ars yesterday, there are three potential sources of error in the timing measurements: distance errors, time-of-flight errors, and errors in the timing of neutrino production. The vast majority of both the paper and the lecture were dedicated to discussing how these errors were reduced (the actual detection of the neutrinos was only a small portion of the paper).

.
.
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But that doesn't mean that this presentation is the last word on the topic. There are a lot of potential sources of error they know about—the paper's table lists a dozen of them. Small errors in each of these could add up to something more significant than their total error. Then there are the classic unknown unknowns. The authors have tried to think of everything, but it's not clear that they can.

The audience at the seminar was already thinking of other sources. For example, GPS signals don't actually penetrate down to the where any of the hardware is, meaning that this system has to track the hardware's motion a bit indirectly. This led one audience member to suggest "if this is a true measurement, drill a bloody hole." The speaker pointed out that commercial drilling equipment isn't accurate enough to go straight from the surface to the detectors, which are kept that deep to filter out most cosmic rays —in short, the solution would create another error.

The other reason that many are voicing skepticism are past measurements of neutrino speeds obtained from supernovae. Since these are so incredibly distant, the small signal seen here would be huge—the neutrinos should arrive roughly four years ahead of the photons. Other experiments on Earth also suggested insignificant differences. One possible explanation for this is the energy of the neutrinos, since OPERA uses much higher energy than the other sources. But the paper indicates that's not likely to be the case, since the authors saw the same signal with both 10 and 40GeV neutrinos.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline briann

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 07:29:21 PM »
While I too am very skeptical.  That doesn't mean that I think this should be abandon or not taken seriously.  Of course, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.  

There has never EVER been any substantial evidence of ANYTHING going faster than the speed of light.... and almost no forms of theoretical physics allow for it.  If this is proven beyond all doubts... which seems unlikley, but who knows..., it would be incredibly historical.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2011, 09:29:02 PM »
They published the results for peer review so they could be independently reproduced. I'm curious to see where this will go too.

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2011, 01:48:49 AM »
I am thrilled if this is true.  I love and respect science.  But I also enjoy seeing when some basic tenet they have is proved to be false.   

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2011, 05:11:25 AM »
I am thrilled if this is true.  I love and respect science.  But I also enjoy seeing when some basic tenet they have is proved to be false.   

I think a lot of scientists get excited by that too. :)

Offline syyuge

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2011, 06:20:55 AM »
Theoretically nothing should move even 0.0001% faster than the light, otherwise it's mass may become more than infinity or even may turn in to some type of negative or imaginary complex mass.

So a new theory may occur that nothing should move faster than the neutrino or it may be a game of the neutrino changing the dimensions.

However no such earlier experience have been recorded during the energy emanating from supernova explosions, wherein if neutrino were really faster this much than the light, then they would have arrived three years earlier. Nothing of this sort happened.

So things are open to further scientific study and analysis.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline TheCoon

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2011, 08:23:44 AM »
The implications of this are time travel perhaps being possible.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2011, 08:55:26 AM »
The implications of this are time travel perhaps being possible.

To quote a recent episode of Dr. Who, River/Melody says "I've got a gun, you've got a time machine, let's kill Hitler!"  ;D

Offline Spiraling Leopard

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2011, 09:33:45 AM »
Let's kill mohammed.

Offline syyuge

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2011, 03:24:16 PM »
In many other copies of universe both Hitler and Mahamad must have been already eliminated. We can only imagine them and our copy is getting poorer day by day.
There are thunders and sparks in the skies, because Faraday invented the electricity.

Offline TheCoon

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #15 on: September 24, 2011, 04:14:53 PM »
To quote a recent episode of Dr. Who, River/Melody says "I've got a gun, you've got a time machine, let's kill Hitler!"  ;D

That's my favorite show, even if it does sometimes promote bad things.  ;D
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2011, 09:54:20 PM »
That's my favorite show, even if it does sometimes promote bad things.  ;D

Well some things I ignore. The most annoying thing for me is when they throw random blacks in just to be multicultural, like with the "Queen of England" on that future spaceship thing or blacks socialzing with the aristocrats of old Europe, and Donna's and Rose's obssessions with mixing. No point to that at all except a weird historical revisionism and/or multi-culti agenda. Good writing other than that though. I've been enjoying the latest season the best.

Offline TheCoon

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 08:59:19 AM »
The Doctor and the chubby guy being completely oblivious to being viewed as a gay couple was pretty funny. The Cybermen remind me of muslims. Instead of being overloaded by emotions and their heads exploding, muslims hear the truth and their heads explode.

I'll say about the show, I think it unfortunately reflects on Britain right now more than anything. =\ You watch any show on the BBC and there's mixed couples all over the place. I know some family members love Coronation Street and Eastenders.
The city isn't what it used to be. It all happened so fast. Everything went to crap. It's like... everyone's sense of morals just disappeared. Bad economy made things worse. Jobs started drying up, then the stores had to shut down. Then a black man was elected president. He was supposed to change things. He didn't. More and more people turned to crime and violence... The town becomes gripped with fear. Dark times, dark times... I am the hero this town needs. I am... The Coon!!!

Offline Rubystars

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »
I'll say about the show, I think it unfortunately reflects on Britain right now more than anything. =\ You watch any show on the BBC and there's mixed couples all over the place. I know some family members love Coronation Street and Eastenders.

When a black shows up on the show for no particular reason that makes sense in the story (Like having River's previous incarnation be black when both her parents are white), I call it "Gratuitous negro"

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2011, 06:23:10 PM »
Oy.... We really know nothing and every year we know we know less and less...

What you said there is demonstrably false, and it also misses the point of not only this article but the scientific enterprise as a whole.

On the subject of the article, this could indeed be a very interesting development if confirmed.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 06:26:31 PM »
I am thrilled if this is true.  I love and respect science.  But I also enjoy seeing when some basic tenet they have is proved to be false.   

Enjoy?    I agree with what rubystars said.  If this tenet about speed of light is "proven false" scientists will be really excited like its the dawn of a new era, more than any of us can appreciate. 

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 06:29:07 PM »
Science must ultimately keep adjusting and readjusting itself until it lines up lock stock and barrel with the Torah.

I don't remember the Torah predicting the speed of light or putting a cap on the speed at which particles can travel.  That type of information is not within the Torah's purview or purpose.  And thus there is no set standard that science has to adjust to, they just need to run well designed experiments and produce and interpret results of them, simple as that.   Let the chips fall as they may.

Offline muman613

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 06:30:49 PM »
What you said there is demonstrably false, and it also misses the point of not only this article but the scientific enterprise as a whole.

On the subject of the article, this could indeed be a very interesting development if confirmed.

You may be excited... I am not so excited... I have seen scientist make claims which are later shown to be unrepeatable. I think they announced this before confirming the results are repeatable.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 06:41:20 PM »
They didn't "make claims" !

 They published a study with findings that could have major implications.  And article ran with this because indeed it could turn out very interesting. Now it is the job of these and other scientists to confirm and repeat the results, and then work on the implications.   If it turns out their initial study was not correct, that's not some big letdown, that's how science works.  "Getting excited" or subsequently being "disappointed" is really not connected to any of this.
I don't think you need to have an emotional response to this in either direction or else you are missing the point.  Its something academic, why get emotional.  Unless you have some kind of personal emotional investment in the speed of light?  I'm a bit puzzled by your response.

Offline muman613

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Re: Particles Moved Faster Than Speed of Light?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2011, 06:42:44 PM »
They didn't "make claims" !

 They published a study with findings that could have major implications.  And article ran with this because indeed it could turn out very interesting. Now it is the job of these and other scientists to confirm and repeat the results, and then work on the implications.   If it turns out their initial study was not correct, that's not some big letdown, that's how science works.  "Getting excited" or subsequently being "disappointed" is really not connected to any of this.

Ok...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14