Author Topic: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage  (Read 1882 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The proud Jew

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 754
The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« on: October 25, 2011, 04:43:56 PM »
My cousin was forced out of the mikveh in her town in israel because she is a single woman. She was tought that once she has her period, she must immerse herself in the mikveh to become pure. The mikveh lady looked at her with scorn because she thought it was an excuse for her to have premaritail sex. I personally find it appauling that a mikveh lady has to make the women feel uncomfortable for asking about there maritial status.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2011, 04:54:19 PM »
Unmarried women do not have to go to the mikveh... The mikveh is used to purify a woman who is married and has marital relations... But here is an article which discusses this topic:




http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=3089

Mikveh for spiritual purification

Although I was born jewish, I didn´t know that. I have been in churches and others places of catholic people because all my classmates were of that religion, but now that I am doing tshuva I want to know if I have to go to a mikve because I feel as if I had a lot of tumah inside me because of that...I am 20 and I am single..
Thanks..


Dear questioner,

Thank you for your question.

If you are sure of your Jewish roots, but were unaware of them until now, all these years you were considered akin to a tinok shenishba (a babe who was taken into captivity, referring to your spiritual world). It is wonderful that you are reclaiming your heritage and it is best to look to the future.  Focus on study and beginning to practice the laws and traditions, rather than look back.  You are not held entirely responsible for not acting like a Jew if you did not know you were one.

Jewish law today does not encourage a single woman to immerse in a mikveh until just before her wedding. Traditionally, prayer and tzedakah (giving to the poor or doing good deeds) are considered no less purifying to body and soul then immersion in a mikveh.

However, there are places which permit unmarried women to go to the mikvah for purification and teshuvah (repentance) purposes the afternoon before Rosh Hashana and/or Yom Kippur.   At that time, you could check your local facilities.

We wish you much hatzlachah (success) in discovering the beauty of Jewish life.



http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=8979

   
Mikveh for renewal after treatment

I appreciate your consideration of this question. Is it Halachically acceptable to immerse in the mikveh for the purpose of spiritual renewal and cleansing after undergoing chemo & radiation?
thank you.


Dear questioner,

Thank you for your question.

In addition to when she is becoming tehorah, a married woman is permitted to immerse in a mikveh whenever she is tehorah already.  Therefore, she may immerse specifically for spiritual purposes as part of recovery from chemotherapy and radiation, so long as she is not niddah when immersing.

Single women do not generally immerse in the mikveh, even for spiritual purposes. A single woman wishing to immerse in this situation would need to ask a specific halachic question.



http://www.yoatzot.org/question.php?id=3024

Single woman: immersion for teshuvah

I am unmarried and haven't been to a mikveh. However, for other personal spiritual reasons, I would like to immerse. The reasons have nothing to do with relations, rather, to set right something I feel was wrong from many years ago. May I go to the mikveh at any time or should I follow the laws of Nidah and count the 7 white days?

Shalom,

Dear questioner,

Thank you for your question.

A single woman is discouraged from immersing.  However, should you wish to immerse for purposes of spiritual purification and repentance, there is room to do so; most women's mikvaot only accommodate this on Erev Rosh HaShanah and/or Erev Yom Kippur, if at all.

Since the immersion is not for purposes of family purity, you need not and should not follow the laws of niddah beforehand.

Other, traditional means to perform teshuvah are: to pray, to give tzedakah, to perform chesed, and even to fast. You may wish to contact a local rabbi for guidance.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2011, 09:22:21 PM »
Sometimes a 'mikveh lady' can be really self-righteous, much like with any position of authority.

What muman writes is correct, but the lady has no right to treat your cousin that way and certainly cannot block a single girl from immersing.  Nor should they assume the worst about a person doing that!

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2011, 10:00:06 PM »
Sometimes a 'mikveh lady' can be really self-righteous, much like with any position of authority.

What muman writes is correct, but the lady has no right to treat your cousin that way and certainly cannot block a single girl from immersing.  Nor should they assume the worst about a person doing that!

That alone would violate a mitzvah {giving the benefit of the doubt}.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Lisa

  • Forum Administrator
  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9373
    • The Urban Grind
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2011, 10:56:01 PM »
Why would an unmarried woman go to a mikveh?

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #5 on: October 25, 2011, 11:47:11 PM »
Why would an unmarried woman go to a mikveh?

According to what muman posted, it appears that a woman could go for "spiritual purification and repentance."   Pretty much the same reason a man could go when not required.

Offline edu

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1866
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2011, 01:42:19 AM »
Lisa asked: Why would an unmarried woman go to a mikveh?

She might be following a certain Rabbinic opinion that woman are allowed to go to certain permitted areas of the Temple Mount, if they have been properly purified through a Mikveh.

There are some Rabbinic opinions that allow it as a preparation for Yom Kippur.

Other Rabbis disagree. At least some of these opponents are basing themselves on Rabbis of centuries ago, where it was then assumed, that denying the ability of unmarried women to go to the Mikveh would prevent them from sinning with men.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2011, 05:23:41 PM »

Other Rabbis disagree. At least some of these opponents are basing themselves on Rabbis of centuries ago, where it was then assumed, that denying the ability of unmarried women to go to the Mikveh would prevent them from sinning with men.

 Which Rabbis centuries ago? Anyway a women NOT going to a Mikwah and having relations is WORSE (even if she is married or single) - Its Karet.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline The proud Jew

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 754
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2011, 07:31:38 PM »
Thank you muman for your torah insight. In modern times I think it would be really impossible to impose on a fellow jew that he or she must be karet. I was tought that every jew has a spark of hashem within them. Even if they are the worst self hating jew. She was doing it for spiritual reasons. Hence clean yourself after the womans period.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2011, 07:50:26 PM »
Thank you muman for your torah insight. In modern times I think it would be really impossible to impose on a fellow jew that he or she must be karet. I was tought that every jew has a spark of hashem within them. Even if they are the worst self hating jew. She was doing it for spiritual reasons. Hence clean yourself after the womans period.

Yes I understand what you are saying. Indeed we all have sparks of Hashem within us...

This article from Aish discusses this topic:

http://www.aish.com/sp/k/48950741.html

Quote
Holy Sparks #4: The Purpose of Creation
by Rabbi Pinchas Winston

The physical world contains latent sparks of holiness, waiting for us to draw them out.

There are many ways to phrase the purpose of creation according to the Torah. However, Rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto (1707-1746), in his landmark, "Derech Hashem" (The Way of God), does so precisely and succinctly:

    God's purpose in creation was to bestow of His good to another... Since God desired to bestow good, a partial good would not be sufficient. The good that He bestows would have to be the ultimate good that His handiwork could accept.

    God alone, however, is the only true good, and therefore His beneficent desire would not be satisfied unless it could bestow that very good, namely the true perfect good that exists in His intrinsic nature...

    His wisdom therefore decreed that the nature of His true benefaction be His giving created things the opportunity to attach themselves to Him to the greatest degree possible. For the intended purpose to be successfully achieved, means must exist through which this creature can earn perfection.

    Humanity was therefore created with both a Yetzer Tov and a Yetzer Hara. A human has the power to incline in whichever direction s/he desires... The Highest Wisdom decreed that the human should consist of two opposites: the pure spiritual soul and the unenlightened physical body. Each one is drawn toward its nature, so the body inclines toward the material, while the soul leans toward the spiritual. The two are then in a constant state of battle... (Derech Hashem 1:2:1-1:3:2)


In simpler terms, the Ramchal (as Rabbi Lutzatto is often called) is defining life as a battle of the spiritual over the material. According to the Ramchal, even when we do enjoy the physical world it should be for spiritual reasons, as defined by the Torah. In doing so we become more elevated, more God-like, and more able to become attached to God -- the greatest good a person can know. This is the essence of the eternal experience called Olam Haba, the World to Come.

PARTNER WITH GOD

Though the Ramchal was a great Kabbalist, he nevertheless did not go into the Kabbalistic meaning of his words, which are far more profound than they may at first seem. He didn't refer to the Holy Sparks about which he was well aware, but, as we shall see, he did allude to them.

The Ramchal writes: "For the intended purpose to be successfully achieved, means must exist through which this creature can earn perfection." In other words, the Ramchal is pointing out what we ourselves have noticed over the ages: humanity and creation exist in an imperfect state.

This is so humanity can become a "partner" with God in bringing creation to its completed and perfected state. As Rabbi Shlomo Eliashiv (1841-1925), another great Kabbalist, writes:

    ...After, for the sake of making creation, God shone down His holy light and allowed it to emanate to the lower levels in order to elevate and separate from the sparks and "broken pieces" all that was necessary to make creation... However, the rest of the sparks and "broken pieces" that were destined for what would follow throughout history had yet to be separated, because humanity was meant to complete the rectification process through actions. (Drushei Olam HaTohu, Ma'amrei HaKlalli, 2)

For us to begin to understand this topic, we need to build an intellectual bridge between the words of these two great Kabbalists.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2011, 02:27:51 AM »
Which Rabbis centuries ago? Anyway a women NOT going to a Mikwah and having relations is WORSE (even if she is married or single) - Its Karet.

You are correct that if a woman has relations without having gone to mikweh its punishment of karet ("spiritual excision") which makes it worse.  It would also be a (different) sin to have relations outside marriage (and different punishment) but no mikweh before makes it worse.

Edu raises an important point that nowadays trying to stop young women from using mikwah is probably going to have zero impact whatsoever on whether they choose to have relations, perhaps unlike in the past (assuming cause I wasn't there).

Edu:  you brought up two very specific examples when a single woman could immerse.  Is there anything in halacha that allows a general immersion at any time due to the woman's personal preference?  I got this impression from the small piece I quoted from muman's statement, but maybe they don't have a source?  I have no idea on this subject in general.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2011, 02:44:39 AM »
That site, Nishmat, which contained the information I posted is intended as a womens Jewish resource...

It is the site of "The Jeanie Schottenstein Center for Advanced Torah Study for Women"

http://www.yoatzot.org/

Quote
Golda Koschitzky Center

Nishmat's Golda Koschitzky Center was established in 2003 by Mrs. Golda Koschitzky's grandchildren to honor their grandmother.

Yoatzot Halacha work through the Center to strengthen the observance of taharat hamishpacha, to enhance understanding of women's health issues, and to assist couples and resolve difficulties through appropriate guidance and ongoing halachic study.

The Center offers a variety of programs with Yoatzot Halacha within the community.

Yoatzot Halacha staff the Golda Koschitzky Women's Halachic Hotline and respond sensitively and professionally to hundreds of women every month.

Community Yoatzot Halacha operate in Modi'in and Shoham; we hope to extend this program to other areas in Israel.

Through the Center's internet sites, Yoatzot Halacha are available to women around the world.

The Center also offers classes, lectures, and study sessions on Women's Health and Halacha, as well as workshops for teenage girls. Click here to email us.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

  • Honorable Winged Member
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12581
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2011, 09:38:26 PM »
Muman I wasn't really asking for their resume or trying to do a shatnez test on them, was just wondering what the source was for their statement!  (Ie, where in talmud, jewish law, halachic works, etc).  They did not give a citation on that specific point.  Not saying there isn't one (cause I don't know), just wanna know what it is.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2011, 01:08:02 PM by Kahane-Was-Right BT »

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 5458
Re: The big debate in israel on mikveh usage
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 10:18:48 AM »
In modern times I think it would be really impossible to impose on a fellow jew that he or she must be karet

 "Karet" is not imposed. It just is what it is. Its a spiritual thing of being "Cut off". No human court imposes nor can it.
 And no, no one "must be" karet, one just is or is not. (obviously as long as one is alive he or she can make Tishuva), but karet is a state of being (or better yett a state of not being).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.