Do you support establishing a separate new Jewish State in Judea and Samaria?

[edu]

Please also add comments to explain your view

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

You need to be a fool, a naive kid, an outsider or just a plain masochist nutcase if you think that our salvation can come from the state of Israel.

[The proud Jew]

We must be united not divided. The prophets didnt say alll the exiles will come back to the land of israel and be seperated. This molvement is about leading the people of israel, not dividing it.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

We must be united not divided. The prophets didnt say alll the exiles will come back to the land of israel and be seperated. This molvement is about leading the people of israel, not dividing it.

 Yea being "United" we must be with the Torah, and with our people as well. NOT with people who are fighting against us and G-D.
 Unity works and is good when its for a good cause. Unity is bad when its for something bad (for example check the Tower of Bavel. They were "united", but it was for something bad).
  That being said, what is the best tactics is debatable. But we certainly shouldn't and don't pay allegiance to chilonim who only curse and fight us and G-D.
  (Also realize that we are fighting and are against the system  and certain individuals who control and run it) not necessarily the average Jew, who even might be clueless about all this (although their are more and more people waking up).

[Maimonides]

If Kahanist Jews or any type of religious Jews try to set up a separate State it will lead to civil war and another downfall of the Jewish nation. Jews must unite not separate into different states in the land of Israel. When the Hebrew Tribes separated into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, it was the beginning of the end for the Hebrew nation.

Our mission must be to educate Jews in Israel to see the light, and return to Judaism. It won't be easy, but redemption is not suppose to be easy. It is not as hopeless as you may think considering that the majority of young Jewish children in Israel come from religious homes. The fact is the secular Jews have adopted values that are bringing about their own downfall. In a few decades the majority of Jews in Israel will be religious Jews, so that is a good start.

[Secularbeliever]

The idea raises many questions and probably answers none.  Would the suburbanites of the settlement blocs be included?  If not you have a population of 100,000 Jews.  Would this new nation have it's own army or look to Israel?  Would it attempt to take areas A and B that are overwhelmingly populated by Arabs.  These are just a few of the questions.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

If Kahanist Jews or any type of religious Jews try to set up a separate State it will lead to civil war and another downfall of the Jewish nation.

And your evidence for this statement is what?

I have news for you and other people who think like you.  The Civil War has already been launched by the Israeli govt.  The Israeli govt is waging civil war against settlers.   It is not just religious Jews, but all Jewish settlers, and by extension, the entire Jewish people!    

So while the govt wages its war, people can choose to respond or not respond, but Do Not Tell Me that settlers are the ones who started a civil war if and when they do respond!   But I also challenge the notion that making arrangements for independence, self-sufficiency and eventual separate statehood automatically equates to civil war.   Do you know that religious zionists make up 2 thirds of combat soldiers in the IDF?   You know how many settlers are serving in the army?

[edu]

Here is a link to Rabbi Meir Kahane's view on the subject
I agree with  Kahane-Was-Right BT that the civil war has already been started by the bad guys and we only have the choice of doing something effective to win or losing.
The blogger Maimonides stated:
 

When the Hebrew Tribes separated into the Kingdom of Judah and the Kingdom of Israel, it was the beginning of the end for the Hebrew nation.

My response: Why focus on that episode in Jewish history? Instead focus on the kingdom of David, which broke off first from the kingdom of the house of Shaul establishing a small Judean state with Hebron as the capital and later on the state spread to all of Israel as the house of Shaul became progressively weaker and less popular.
And don't forget what was the ultimate cause for the downfall of Shaul? The prophet said it was his undo compassion for Amalek.
A sin which is shared by many of our so-called leaders, in the state of Israel today.
Now I am willing to admit that it is possible, that eventually given enough disasters combined with the fact that the religious have larger families on average, that the State of Israel, might one day improve, even without a state of Judea. Or perhaps a huge number of religious immigrants will save us.
If someone has a better plan than the State of Judea to move the redemption forward, please inform me.

[edu]

I should add that a more religious Israel does not necessarily equal a more right-wing Israel.
For example, after many years that Jerusalem was headed by secular mayors, eventually Uri Lupolianski a Chareidi Jew was elected.
At least on the Issue of defending Jewish rights on the Temple Mount, he was probably as bad if not worse than the secularists.
For example, see http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/14-02-07.htm
Or let's look at the massive blood-spilling Shalit for a 1000+ terrorists deal.
It had the full backing of the religious leader, R. Ovadia Yosef and his political party Shas.

[Dr. Dan]

Yes.  If it were to happen, the following could take place:

1. The Arab nazis will assume they can destroy the settlers because they will be outnumbering them.  However, with Gd's help and good cache of arms, the settlers will show the rest of Israel what means when it comes down to business to defeat those Nazis.  When the settlers win their wars, the Israelis will realize that it takes to win and regain national and religious pride and eventually rejoin with Judea and Samaria as one truly Jewish state.

2. The second possibility might be an Israeli attach on the settlers in Judea and Samaria. I doubt this scenario will take place because if needless deaths of settlers take place as a result of Jews killing other Jews, most Israelis will side with them and cause a civil unrest within Israel until the government changes its policies to changes all together to serve the settlers and help Israel's true causes.

In order for another separate Judean/Samarian Jewish state to form, Israel has to accept it and be willing to arm them for protection.

I think in the end, if it came to this, Israel Judea and Samaria would eventually reunify.

[syyuge]

Greater Israel...

[Maimonides]

And your evidence for this statement is what?

I have news for you and other people who think like you.  The Civil War has already been launched by the Israeli govt.  The Israeli govt is waging civil war against settlers.   It is not just religious Jews, but all Jewish settlers, and by extension, the entire Jewish people!    

So while the govt wages its war, people can choose to respond or not respond, but Do Not Tell Me that settlers are the ones who started a civil war if and when they do respond!   But I also challenge the notion that making arrangements for independence, self-sufficiency and eventual separate statehood automatically equates to civil war.   Do you know that religious zionists make up 2 thirds of combat soldiers in the IDF?   You know how many settlers are serving in the army?

Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.

[Maimonides]

Here is a link to Rabbi Meir Kahane's view on the subject
I agree with  Kahane-Was-Right BT that the civil war has already been started by the bad guys and we only have the choice of doing something effective to win or losing.
The blogger Maimonides stated:
 My response: Why focus on that episode in Jewish history? Instead focus on the kingdom of David, which broke off first from the kingdom of the house of Shaul establishing a small Judean state with Hebron as the capital and later on the state spread to all of Israel as the house of Shaul became progressively weaker and less popular.
And don't forget what was the ultimate cause for the downfall of Shaul? The prophet said it was his undo compassion for Amalek.
A sin which is shared by many of our so-called leaders, in the state of Israel today.
Now I am willing to admit that it is possible, that eventually given enough disasters combined with the fact that the religious have larger families on average, that the State of Israel, might one day improve, even without a state of Judea. Or perhaps a huge number of religious immigrants will save us.
If someone has a better plan than the State of Judea to move the redemption forward, please inform me.

You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.

Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.
The Irgun and Lehi did not wage reprisals against the Haganah and Mapai, even though they were being turned over to the British, because they did not want to unleash a Jewish Civil War that would let the Arabs take advantage of divided Jewish people.

I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.

The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be  crushed by the IDF. 

[Dr. Dan]

Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.

I think the only way that could ever happen is if Israel permits it to happen as a way to resolve their differences. I don't see the Settlers going outside of Judea and Samaria and start an armed resistance against the IDF.

However, in a case of an Israeli retreat from Judea and Samaria and the Settlers are able to stay to fend for themselves, absolutely, they should establish another Jewish state in those territories even if the Fakistinians are already assuming they are going to keep it for themselves.  I just hope these settlers will be sufficiently armed.  And believe me, if that were to happen, like in 1967, Judea and Samaria will increase in size drastically and the arabs will run away.  When real Jews fight, THEY FIGHT.  And when the rest of Israel would see somthing like this happen, they will not only demand the same thing from the IDF, but Judea and Samaria and Israel will reunite.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If something like this happens (the I.D.F. just leaving Jews in Judea and Samaria) their is a likely scenario to play out- Not only the Arabs but a force of internationals (all nations- U.N.) will attack the new (real) Jewish state- like the Prophets said.

[Dr. Dan]

You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.

Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.
The Irgun and Lehi did not wage reprisals against the Haganah and Mapai, even though they were being turned over to the British, because they did not want to unleash a Jewish Civil War that would let the Arabs take advantage of divided Jewish people.

I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state. He simply pointed out that the IDF was not needed to defend the settlers, as long as the settlers were allowed to do what they had to do to defend themselves.

The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be  crushed by the IDF. 

See my original post.  If the IDF were to dare kill any Jewish Settler, most Israelis will side with them and go against the government. I doubt this type of civil war would take place.  I know that the settlers will not go up and say, "We are separating right now".  If anything, at the time a Fakestinian state is about to be established on settler land, that would be the time, the settlers would have to demand a separate Jewish state...it's either that, or the government gets tired of the settlers and give in to their demands and go their separate ways. I doubt that will take place also.

[Dr. Dan]

If something like this happens (the I.D.F. just leaving Jews in Judea and Samaria) their is a likely scenario to play out- Not only the Arabs but a force of internationals (all nations- U.N.) will attack the new (real) Jewish state- like the Prophets said.

and beezrat Hashem, the settlers will win.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

and beezrat Hashem, the settlers will win.

 Amen. May it be His will.

[edu]

Quotes from our forum member, Maimonides

You do realize that David did not abandon Saul but was loyal to him until the end even though Saul wanted him dead. The point is we must take the higher ground and stand for Jewish unity, and not divide the Jewish people.

That was true for Shaul {Saul} who was annointed by the prophet Shmuel {Samuel} to be king over Israel. However, this was not true, regarding Shaul's son. In this case, David did split off and established a separate Judean Kingdom that in time spread.
Quote by Maimonides

Hashem cursed the Kingdom of David by dividing it, because a divided Jewish nation is a vulnerable Jewish nation.

Reread the Tanach. This is not the reason that Hashem punished the Kingdom of David. In addition, a person has to have his eyes on present day realities and not slogans. If present day realities, show that working separately accomplishes more we work separately.
In addition you without realizing it support my argument. The Irgun and Lechi did not blindly submit to the leadership of hagana for the sake of unity. They went their separate ways, because they thought they could help the Jewish cause better without acting under a unified Hagana banner.
Also historically, while the Irgun did not fight back against Hagana's backstabbing. Lechi did react. And I am told their reaction actually had a very positive impact.
Quote by Maimonides

I agree with Meir Kahane,zecher tzadik livracha , but he did not call for a separate Jewish state.

He did call for a Judean state. Do some further research if you don't believe me.

[Rubystars]

Greater Israel...

That was my thought when I read this too. Israel should be getting larger, not smaller. If they did break off and form their own country I would support them though.

[Dr. Dan]

The current Israel had made grave sins of partitioning Gd's land. Look to the Bible and previous ask jtf questions.  Abraham was punished for dealing with the philistine king.

And because of these grave sins the current Israel will continue to be punished.  One way might be the creation of a judean state that will overtake the Israeli state as long as it doesn't stray either.

And with leaders like the ones that are there now, there very little chance Gd would reward then with a greater Israel.  It will not surprise me that if Obama wins, Israel well negotiate for a fekestine.  The fakistinians will reject it and so will the while world and force a state the the fakistinians think they deserve. at that moment the state if Judea could be declared if the Israeli governmentkowtows to this.

Then there will be a war that Israel will lose, but Judea will win with their rocks and sticks.  Gd will bless them and most Israelis will love them.  hopefully the judeans will encourageTorah study or else We will have the same cycle of a secular Israel.

[takebackourtemple]

I would like to see Torah Jews try the same technique that the fakestinians are using in an attempt to claim additional land outside of the existing borders. Maybe in Egypt, Syria or Jordan. Since the current Israeli government does not represent their needs, the UN should entitle them to their own land. 

[Rubystars]

What if the Judean/Samarian state has evil leadership like those in the Yesha council?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Since that is the case why do we need to break off from Israel if as I pointed out the future of Israel will be in the hands of the religious Jews. The only question now is making sure the religious Jews are united in the belief of defending real Torah Judaism, and not simply securing themselves more government benefits.

Because if drastic measures are not taken now, there will be no possibility to take them in the future when the situation becomes even more dire.    If you think the ruling elites will just lie down and let the religious (and settler) numbers surge and overtake them into a majority, and then take away control from them, you are dreaming (no offense).     Why do you think there is a freeze on new settlements since the 1980's?   Why do you think Bibi enacted a freeze on EXISTING settlements?     These are two major measures of population control.  The elites can read the writing on the wall and will do whatever they can to break the spirit of those who would wrest control away from them and lead the state in a different direction.    The number of settlers would be far greater had these terrible decisions not been made by the govt of Israel.      But these are only 2 of the many ways the ruling elites are targeting their biggest enemy and the biggest threat to their power - the settlers.    Your last sentence is a really important point, but unfortunately many religious Jews simply do not "get it."    Many of the haredim, and many of them are really good people, just do not get it and have little connection to the ongoing assault that is happening to the nationalist public. 

One of the reasons for breaking off from the state is the fact that the state currently cannibalizes them.   If things as they are set in motion now are simply left as they are, settlers will be weaker, the Arab Fakestine terror state will rise in their backyard, and the ruling elite tyranny will have even more centralized control over the lives of Jews.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

The moment a group of any Jews declare they will break away from Israel and form there own state, they will be  crushed by the IDF. 

Explain to me why the IDF would fight them?    They are not declaring war on the IDF by 'breaking away' as you term it.    I just don't get this mentality.    Did the IDF crush any of Israel's enemies in the past 30 years?  Ever?