Hebron massacre

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I uploaded the Arab simulation of Baruch's massacre of 29 Arabs to drive the Arabs crazy... please comment, Like and subscribe

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Wow, that is awesome!  How do we make stuff like that?

[Yaakov Mendel]

I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves with is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

בס''ד

JTF in the United States and Hayamin Haamiti in Israel are both law-abiding organizations. Our aim is to awaken the Jews of Israel so that they will replace by lawful means the Erev Rav traitors that rule over the Jewish homeland.

[Chaim Ben Pesach]

I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.

בס''ד

This movement does not in any way support the burning of Israeli flags. The resurrection of Jewish statehood 63 years ago was a holy and miraculous event. While the Israeli government and the Erev Rav establishment are traitors whom we oppose and seek to replace, the concept of Jewish sovereignty over the Land of Israel is sacred.

 

[Yaakov Mendel]

בס''ד

This movement does not in any way support the burning of Israeli flags. 

I know it doesn't. And, as far as I'm concerned, I immediately expressed my opposition to a post that promoted this (and got viciously insulted for that by the poster).

[mord]

I know it doesn't. And, as far as I'm concerned, I immediately expressed my opposition to a post that promoted this (and got viciously insulted for that by the poster).

I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal

 Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
 
  Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
 
  Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.

So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.  

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.  

 Where did I say I don't care? Anyway your mentality is the slippery slop that got all of Israel's "right-wing" into what they are now. COMPROMISE. The Likud, heck even labor was once for Israel getting more land getting stronger. What happened? They compromised here, compromised there. Starting looking and being concerned more and more about what OTHERS think of them. Soo now we see the obsession of their actions. Now if America winks the wrong way Israel must give up Judea Samaria and Jerusalem, because that is the more "popular" position. Anyway I'm not going to comply for the "popular" position, but stand for the truth. And whats the truth about Dr. Baruch Goldstein ZTKL HYD was that he was a great saint, and all the praises be to him even if this is currently unpopular.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also look at what Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD stood for and did. He stood for the truth. Uncompromisingly. He said it like it is. That is what we need. The seal of the Holy 1 is EMET (Truth).
 In contrast look at all those deformers. Look at what their "compromises" acomplished for the Jewish people- A Spiritual Holocaust taking place right now! Look at their "compromises" with homo "marriages" or Jews marrying shiksas and all types of disasters. That is what the "compromisers" stand for and leads to. Total destruction and a breach in the truth and breach in Halacha.

[muman613]

Also look at what Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD stood for and did. He stood for the truth. Uncompromisingly. He said it like it is. That is what we need. The seal of the Holy 1 is EMET (Truth).
 In contrast look at all those deformers. Look at what their "compromises" acomplished for the Jewish people- A Spiritual Holocaust taking place right now! Look at their "compromises" with homo "marriages" or Jews marrying shiksas and all types of disasters. That is what the "compromisers" stand for and leads to. Total destruction and a breach in the truth and breach in Halacha.

But our Rebbe did not suggest that a lone man go and shoot up a bunch of arabs in a mosque.... And I understand that we should distance ourselves from this act because it did not result in anything but more trouble for the religious right. While we may agree, or understand, the sentiment which caused Dr Goldstein to act like this we should also remember that these acts do little to help our cause.

[syyuge]

The world is leftist secular with convoluted logics. When muslamic terrorists kill hundreds in a single run, they are understood as the popular muslamic peoples democratic revolutionaries for the liberation. 

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,51824.0.html

 (Yaakov Mendal these are your own words!) Anyway anyone have the song available would love to hear it.)

!

Above 2 made by simple search here on the forum, and the bottom is material I read earlier about this incident.

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/danilin/PodeUmatzil.htm

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But our Rebbe did not suggest that a lone man go and shoot up a bunch of arabs in a mosque.... And I understand that we should distance ourselves from this act because it did not result in anything but more trouble for the religious right. While we may agree, or understand, the sentiment which caused Dr Goldstein to act like this we should also remember that these acts do little to help our cause.

 How would you know that? Again it depends on the context. Anyway I remember watching a video on youtube where Rav Kahane ZTL HYD praises those Jews who put bombs unto Arabs. He was saying and what do you think those bombs did!  Maybe ill find it, or you make a search.
  How do you know what it did or didn't do? Perhaps it saved many Jewish lives. And anyway it was a great Kiddush Hash-m.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Where did I say I don't care? Anyway your mentality is the slippery slop that got all of Israel's "right-wing" into what they are now. COMPROMISE. The Likud, heck even labor was once for Israel getting more land getting stronger. What happened? They compromised here, compromised there. Starting looking and being concerned more and more about what OTHERS think of them. Soo now we see the obsession of their actions. Now if America winks the wrong way Israel must give up Judea Samaria and Jerusalem, because that is the more "popular" position. Anyway I'm not going to comply for the "popular" position, but stand for the truth. And whats the truth about Dr. Baruch Goldstein ZTKL HYD was that he was a great saint, and all the praises be to him even if this is currently unpopular.

I am completely opposed to Israel caving in to foreign pressure.
I am completely against surrendering Judea and Samaria.
So stop lecturing me about things I never said or thought.
I'll tell you one thing about the difference in "mentality" between you and me : you believe you know the truth about everything and that the others are always wrong, whereas I am more humble than you. I'll let you think about which of these two mindsets is more Jewish than the other.

[muman613]

I have no problem admitting that what he did was very noble and commendable. The only problem I have is that I do not suggest these kinds of actions for the future. Anything which should be done to the enemy should be coordinated and sustained. The goal of Rabbi Kahane to relocate them either peacefully, or forcefully, is the goal which I still suggest...

I also remember that there is some disagreement as to whether the mosque was about to carry out terrorist activity. I have read different accounts of what happened. In the end I see that it has turned out bad for the religious zionists as a result of some of the zealous acts which have occurred. Of course in the end only Hashem knows what the ultimate end will be.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I am completely opposed to Israel caving in to foreign pressure.
I am completely against surrendering Judea and Samaria.
So stop lecturing me about things I never said or thought.
I'll tell you one thing about the difference in "mentality" between you and me : you believe you know the truth about everything and that the others are always wrong, whereas I am more humble than you. I'll let you think about which of these two mindsets is more Jewish than the other.

 1) Soo. What makes you better then those who are for surrender of Jewish lands? Perhaps in a couple of years or a generation you will come to the same conclusions as them as well because after all, no one knows the truth?
 2) Yes I do. I know the Torah is the Truth. (and never did I claim to know everything) If their are those who think otherwise and even if they are the majority. TOUGH.
 3) Which is more Jewish? Well by Jewish what do you mean? By the "Jewish" mindset of today? Of Hollywood, of the soo called Israeli universities, of what?
 The Jewish mindset, the REAL Jewish mindset is to stand for the truth. All the nations of the world didn't accept the TORAH, only 1. The Jewish nation. They possessed the REAL JEWISH mindset and had "Holy boldness". And even though the majority of the world rejected G-D's Torah (instruction) their was 1 nation- the Jewish nation that accepted and stood for the Truth (as a nation). Now you tell me what is more "Jewish" ?

[Yaakov Mendel]

1) Soo. What makes you better then those who are for surrender of Jewish lands? Perhaps in a couple of years or a generation you will come to the same conclusions as them as well because after all, no one knows the truth?
 2) Yes I do. I know the Torah is the Truth. (and never did I claim to know everything) If their are those who think otherwise and even if they are the majority. TOUGH.
 3) Which is more Jewish? Well by Jewish what do you mean? By the "Jewish" mindset of today? Of Hollywood, of the soo called Israeli universities, of what?
 The Jewish mindset, the REAL Jewish mindset is to stand for the truth. All the nations of the world didn't accept the TORAH, only 1. The Jewish nation. They possessed the REAL JEWISH mindset and had "Holy boldness". And even though the majority of the world rejected G-D's Torah (instruction) their was 1 nation- the Jewish nation that accepted and stood for the Truth (as a nation). Now you tell me what is more "Jewish" ?

I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.

  Thanks for that line. Perhaps if their is a time where I can't prove my point with logic and facts, ill use it as well.

[Zelhar]

I'm not surprised.In my opinion if a person objects to the IDF policies in YeSha you can still join the Army or MaGav and refuse to comply with the orders but you will do time,big deal

You under-estimate the poser of peer pressure and indoctrination. Someone who is strong enough mentally should do what you say. I know people who joined the army as pro-transfer right wing Jews and ended up participating, supporting, and justifying the expulsion from Gush Katif.

[Zelhar]

I don't support the action of Baruch Goldstein purely for practical reasons. Every Arab Muslim Nazi he killed is one less wicked amelikite infesting the holly Jewish site of Mearat Hamachpela. Every Arab Muslim Nazi who infests the holy Jewish site deserves to die.

[Dr. Dan]

Big deal? Who would want to do time especially for something they could have avoided in the first place?
 
  Anyway Baruch Goldstein is a hero and a fallen soldier. We shouldn't leave a fallen soldier behind no matter how unpopular his actions might be. He was/is a great hero and saint who saved many Jews by his actions. We don't need to run away from our glorious hero's in order to feel popular.

It's one thing when you someone like Baruch Goldstein who knew something was going to happen and went to the authorities to warn them.  When they did nothing, then he did the right thing to save lives by doing what he did.

However, to "randomly" just go out and do that...i wouldn't recommend if you want to get a point across and win hearts over.  It's not worth going to jail to do. 

If on the other hand, it is a similar situation when a Jew hears a plan of his enemies to massacre other Jews and he the authorities sit back and do nothing, when it is the matter of saving life, i support actions like that.

[Dr. Dan]

So you don't care about JTF/ HaYamin Haamiti becoming a mass movement ? You don't get it : praising what Baruch Goldstein did could cause us trouble on incitement charges. Besides, not everyone shares your opinion about him in this organization.  

Yaacov, when it comes down to Jewish survival, there is NO COMPROMISE.  Baruch Goldstein didn't go and randomly kill Muslims praying.  He killed would be murderers who planned a massacre of Jews.  Not sure if you realize that or not.

[Dr. Dan]

I have no problem admitting that what he did was very noble and commendable. The only problem I have is that I do not suggest these kinds of actions for the future. Anything which should be done to the enemy should be coordinated and sustained. The goal of Rabbi Kahane to relocate them either peacefully, or forcefully, is the goal which I still suggest...

I also remember that there is some disagreement as to whether the mosque was about to carry out terrorist activity. I have read different accounts of what happened. In the end I see that it has turned out bad for the religious zionists as a result of some of the zealous acts which have occurred. Of course in the end only Hashem knows what the ultimate end will be.

When it comes down to Jewish survival, there should be NO COMPROMISE.  if what barch goldstein did was to save Jewish lives because of the plan that was being hashed out by the very people planning on killing Jews, then he did the right thing and screw everybody else who would have looked at religious zionists as terrible people.  When it comes down to saving Jewish lives, there is no compromise.

The other thing that I hope will take place one day is that Israel carry out true justice according to the Torah.  That means, we should do to our enemies what they want to do to us.