Hebron massacre

[Dr. Dan]

I can't debate with someone who won't listen. Keep ranting if that makes you feel better, I'm done with you.

Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here.  Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground.  Tag isn't attacking you.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also about "looking bad" remember that the regime and internationals will use everything and anything against Torah Jews. Today they are even calling the (stupid-horrific) incident of Jews swapping 1,000+ terrorists for 1 soldier as a show of Israel's "racist" views. Or the fact that Jews don't rape Arab women because of "Israeli racism".

[Secularbeliever]

I uploaded the Arab simulation of Baruch's massacre of 29 Arabs to drive the Arabs crazy... please comment, Like and subscribe

Why would that drive Arabs crazy? 
1) It is their propoganda, they make Goldstein look like a maniac slaughtering peaceful Arabs doing nothing evil.
2) You are assuming that Arabs go to JTF and watch these videos.  I doubt if that is true, but even if it was, they would be happy to see their propoganda here.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Yaacov, when it comes down to Jewish survival, there is NO COMPROMISE.  Baruch Goldstein didn't go and randomly kill Muslims praying.  He killed would be murderers who planned a massacre of Jews.  Not sure if you realize that or not.

There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here.  Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground.  Tag isn't attacking you.

I'm sorry, I won't debate with someone who accuses me of things that I never said or thought.

[Yaakov Mendel]

  Thanks for that line. Perhaps if their is a time where I can't prove my point with logic and facts, ill use it as well.

Then, make sure you can also spell English correctly, it will look even better.
Just who do you think you are ?

[Zelhar]

There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.

Killing arab muslim nazi men who unanimously support the extermination of the Jews and who occupy and deliberately defile the second most holly place to Judaism doesn't qualify as indiscriminate killing. Every single one of Baruch Goldstein victims deserved what was coming for him. I think Goldstein conducted selected killing. He could easily massacre a lot more Arabs including women and children if he wished to.

[Yaakov Mendel]

Every single one of Baruch Goldstein victims deserved what was coming for him.

When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?

[Secularbeliever]

When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?

That is the problem with indiscriminate killing.  On the other hand, I do support the firebombinb of Dresden and the atomic bomb being dropped on Hiroshima so I don't oppose indiscriminate killing 100%.  In the case of Jews and Arabs we have enough power that we should not need to do this.  I think Israeli special forces could stay busy for a long time killing responsible Arabs.  If that does not stop terrorism then we could turn to indiscriminate killing.  In Goldstein's case he could have understandably assumed that the Israselis were not taking out the Arabs responsilbe for terror so that he needed to step in and kill without discrimination.

[Dr. Dan]

There are conflicting versions of this story. I don't know the truth for sure, nor can you. If what happened is what you describe, then I agree, Baruch Goldstein is a hero who sacrificed himself to save Jewish lives. Whatever really happened that day, I know enough about the life of Baruch Goldstein to say that he was a very good man. That is why I tend to believe your version because I find it hard to believe that he might have gone mad on an impulse. And I certainly have no compassion for Muslims who wish our destruction. But I take the Torah's prohibition of murder very seriously and I do not interpret it as limited to the murder of Jews, so I am not in favour of indiscriminate killing as a general rule.

So we agree.  I think Tag was trying to convince you of the first point you agree with about Jewish lives in danger and having to take the law into your hands to save lives.

But the two versions of the story with Baruch Goldstein is irrelevant in this discussion.  You agree that if Jewish lives are in danger and law enforcement will do nothing to protect those Jews, then it is necessary to protect Jewish lives in the way that Baruch Goldstein did.

You are also against just having some random indiscriminate killings.  I feel that it is counter productive to do something like that.  However I feel that our enemies deserve the very things they wish to do on us and we shouldn't be merciful to them.  I'll leave it at that.

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

I am not sure that promoting Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque will make us popular. Whether you like it or not, the fact is that a vast majority of Israelis disapprove of this action. I understand that our mission is not to disseminate a message suited to the Erev Rav as the other political movements in Israel do and that we must, on the contrary, change mentalities. But we can do it in a more effective manner by focusing on less controversial facts and figures. The list of activitists and leaders we must associate ourselves with is clear : Rabbi Kahane, Rabbi Kahane and Rabbi Kahane... There's nothing that Rabbi Kahane ever did in his life that can be used by our ennemies as a pretext for demonizing us. Of course, they may try but in the end they can only fail. Whereas it will be much easier for them to demonize this movement if we glorify Baruch Goldstein's shooting in a mosque. I don't have to explain the kind of accusations they will resort to, it's fairly obvious, and, with the mindset currently prevailing in Israel, these accusations will win over the Israeli public and we will fail to create a mass movement.
It's like promoting the burning of Israeli flags : I seriously doubt that it's going to help this movement because it's highly unpopular, including among hard core nationalists.

Actually, hatred of Arabs is pretty popular in Israel. But let's pretend it wasn't. Most of our principles are not popular. None of them can make us popular. So what are you suggesting? to sit idly and let Jews rot in their insanity or have some balls and try to convince them to change, to save them?

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Yaacov, you have to own up to your point of view..don't just give up here.  Maybe clarify your point of view better...find a middle ground.  Tag isn't attacking you.

This is not a "point of view". He lacks the most basic of all human instincts - the will to survive. It must never be given legitimacy.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?

 In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
 The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

Why would that drive Arabs crazy?  
1) It is their propoganda, they make Goldstein look like a maniac slaughtering peaceful Arabs doing nothing evil.
2) You are assuming that Arabs go to JTF and watch these videos.  I doubt if that is true, but even if it was, they would be happy to see their propoganda here.

How will seeing 29 Arabs slaughtered by one Jew, one ultimate humiliation, make them happy?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Jewish Ethics and War: Urban Warfare and Civilians    
It has been suggested that Israel must act in accordance with international practices, because we are incapable at this time of formulating Halakhic guidelines due to a lack of historical continuity in the process of Halakhic decision making regarding such issues. This position views Halakha as frozen and Rabbanim as helpless. Also: knowing the difference between good and evil. Are all cultures equally legitimate and acceptable?

Download the Shiur

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/43-philosophy/283-jewish-ethics-and-war-urban-warfare-and-civilians

[IsraeliGovtAreKapos]

So we agree.  I think Tag was trying to convince you of the first point you agree with about Jewish lives in danger and having to take the law into your hands to save lives.

But the two versions of the story with Baruch Goldstein is irrelevant in this discussion.  You agree that if Jewish lives are in danger and law enforcement will do nothing to protect those Jews, then it is necessary to protect Jewish lives in the way that Baruch Goldstein did.

You are also against just having some random indiscriminate killings.  I feel that it is counter productive to do something like that.  However I feel that our enemies deserve the very things they wish to do on us and we shouldn't be merciful to them.  I'll leave it at that.

Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?

 I think he has tactical problems. Which are legit.

[Dr. Dan]

In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
 The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3

So by this logic you mean to say that it should be ok to go into a random arab's home and kill everyone inside?  Just saying....

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

So by this logic you mean to say that it should be ok to go into a random arab's home and kill everyone inside?  Just saying....

 I'm not sure what I can say legally, the smart will understand.
 
 But check the wars with the Caanites of Joshua. The Arabs today have the status of Caanites and what must be in the equation is the long term survival of Israel and the Jewish people. Soo whatever tactics are appropriate they need to be used and applied, everything in its proper time and context.

[Dr. Dan]

Do you have moral problems with slaughtering an Arab just like that?

I'll put it to you this way.  I have much more at stake with my life and my family to put it all out there just to go and shoot up a random group of Arabs.  It's not smart nor is it a good strategy in my opinion. I can do so much more for our people by doing things legally.  That's my opinion.  But if I knew something were to happen physically to my people and I had to take action immediately, and the authorities weren't taking me seriously, I would take action to save my people.  Taking action can mean anything as long as I'm effective in saving my people.

And if some Jew were to go out there and randomly kill some Arabs, I wouldn't condone that behavior.   However, if he knew something were to happen to our people and he did something about it after the authorities ignored him, he would have my blessing to do what he needs to do to protect our people. Do you understand what I'm saying?

[Zelhar]

When you open fire on individuals you don't know and who are not threatening you, how do you know for sure that they all deserve to die ? Who are you to decide to take their lives without knowing if they are guilty ? What kind of justice is this ? Did Baruch Goldstein have proof that every single one of the people he shot was planning to murder Jews ?

The proof is that they chose to participate in the Islamic desecration of the holly Jewish site. Do you think any one of these people thought about giving up the site so it would return to its rightful owner ? Do you think any one of them prayed for truthful peace and justice even as he kneeled to pray to allah on a Jewish holly site which was violently converted into an Islamic mosque ?

[Yaakov Mendel]

In a war one doesn't need "proof" that each and every single individual is personally responsible. In this case what right does any soldier have in shooting another soldier or anyone else part of the enemy if they are not 100% convinced that that other soldier is a true threat?
 The proof is on them to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they aren't the enemy.

http://machonshilo.org/en/images/stories/files/Ethics%20of%20War-Torah%20Perspective.mp3

I don't think your comparison is valid. In a war, every armed soldier is a threat. Unarmed civilians praying in a mosque cannot be assumed to be an immediate threat justifying lethal force.

[Dr. Dan]

I'm not sure what I can say legally, the smart will understand.
 
 But check the wars with the Caanites of Joshua. The Arabs today have the status of Caanites and what must be in the equation is the long term survival of Israel and the Jewish people. Soo whatever tactics are appropriate they need to be used and applied, everything in its proper time and context.

And I will says again and again...our enemies..the enemies of the Jewish people deserve the very thing they wish to do to us.  Do you think I would shed a tear for my enemy's people if a mob of Jews or gentiles did something to our enemies?

[Secularbeliever]

How will seeing 29 Arabs slaughtered by one Jew, one ultimate humiliation, make them happy?

They must not mind it since they made the video. 

[Dr. Dan]

They must not mind it since they made the video. 

Better to start with a threat than to replay the past.. Muslim Nazis are cowards since they hide behind women and children.