I was just on Ask Moses Chat...and the person couldn't answer my question

[Dr. Dan]

I think I had her stumped and I wasn't trying to stump anyone.

I asked what the moral of the story is to creating plans before heavenly objects in particular the sun if plants require sunlight to survive...and the first answer I was basically getting was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well, that's they way Gd wanted it."

And she was so busy answering other people that we got disconnected..

I'll let you guys know if I do get answer.

[Dr. Dan]

Nope..she didn't know the answer...Maybe Muman, you know?

[Dr. Dan]

Now I'm on Chabad.org and asking a rabbi...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Where you see this?
 And to your answer Rabbi Slifkin answers to it in his book "   The Challenge of Creation"

 Maybe i'll get an excerpt to it.

[Dr. Dan]

Where you see this?
 And to your answer Rabbi Slifkin answers to it in his book "   The Challenge of Creation"

 Maybe i'll get an excerpt to it.

If you can find and post this, that would be great.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Check http://zootorah.com/books/challengeframe.html (For the chapters)
  And here for an excerpt http://www.zootorah.com/books/Challenge_sample_chapter.pdf

[muman613]

I think I had her stumped and I wasn't trying to stump anyone.

I asked what the moral of the story is to creating plans before heavenly objects in particular the sun if plants require sunlight to survive...and the first answer I was basically getting was, and I'm paraphrasing, "Well, that's they way Gd wanted it."

And she was so busy answering other people that we got disconnected..

I'll let you guys know if I do get answer.

I am not sure if this is 'THE' answer you are looking for but it is one of the morals of the creation story...

One of the morals is that Hashem created all the things in the universe before he created man and left them incomplete.... This was because Hashem wanted man to have to pray for rain in order for the plants to grow...

http://www.nachalnovea.com/breslovcenter/articles/article_outpouring1.html

Before Adam was created, the Torah states, "All the bushes of the field had not yet grown, and the plants of the field had not yet sprung up, because G-d had not brought rain upon the earth, and there was no man to work the soil" (Genesis 2:5). This is speaking of the sixth day of creation, and Rashi notes that this seems to contradict the verse which says that on the third day, "the earth brought forth plants" (Genesis 1:12). Rashi explains that the plants only emerged as far as the surface of the ground, and there they remained until Adam prayed for rain. The rain then fell, and all the plants and trees began to grow from the ground.

http://www.nishmat.net/article.php?id=477&heading=0

Bereishit 5768: Rain, Plants, and Prayer
Rabbi Zvi Leshem (Blobstein)

"And all of the plants of the field were not yet in the earth, and all grasses of the field had not sprouted, for haShem Elokim had not made it rain on the earth, for there was no man to work the land." (1) Rashi explains that the reason it hadn't rained was that without man, there was no one to recognize the goodness of the rain. (2) When Adam was created and became aware that the world needed rain, he davened for rain, and then it rained and the plants began to grow.(3)

Rav Hirsch points out that the further development of the world is dependent on the existence and behavior of Man. Obviously this is not only referring to humanity's role as custodian over the natural world (as benevolent rulers, not tyrannical dictators, to paraphrase Rav Kook (4), but primarily to our role as the spiritual guardians and leaders of the cosmos. Rav Hirsch further notes that it is deeply significant that the activity of Man mastering the earth is called avoda -- service. (5) This service is centered on prayer, the ongoing connection between the Creator and the created. Praying is simply drinking from the source of all spiritual life watering all the fibers and filaments of our inner being to produce new blossoms.

Rebbe Nachman also compares prayer with flowers (6). As I walk through a field picking wildflowers, I see more and more beautiful ones. Instead of throwing away the flowers I already have in order to take more, I retain the old, adding the new in order to make beautiful bouquets. By the time I reach the other side of the field, I have a giant and beautiful armful of flowers. So too, when I daven. Each letter is a flower, each word a small bouquet, each blessing a larger one and so on. The goal is not to daven quickly, discarding each letter in order to pronounce the next. I should rather savor each letter and each word, saying the next while still feeling the reverberations of the previous. Thus I create bigger and bigger bouquets of beautiful flowers, and, as Rebbe Nachman concludes, when he stands in the last word of the prayer, he is still standing in the first word of the prayer.[/qipte]

[muman613]

One more on this idea:

http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/doc/doc41/E_eamr.doc

“‬Until Adam Came and Prayed for Rain”

Therefore, ‬at the inception of creation, ‬so long as man had not entered his place and his position, ‬rain did not appear, ‬for “‬G-d had not brought rain on the earth, ‬and there was no man to work the ground” (‬Genesis ‬2:5)‬.

Indeed, ‬the sages of the Talmud point to a contradiction:

“‬One verse says: '‬And the earth brought forth grass,' ‬referring to the third day, ‬whereas another verse when speaking of the sixth day says: '‬No shrub of the field was yet in the earth.' ‬This teaches us that the plants commenced to grow but stopped just as they were about to break through the soil, ‬until Adam came and prayed for rain for them; ‬and when rain fell they sprouted forth” (‬Chullin ‬60b)‬.

Based upon the above source, ‬Maharal provides us with a descriptive portrayal of man's place between the upper and lower worlds:
“‬Therefore, ‬the plants stopped just as they were about to break through the soil, ‬and there was no rain from above or below. ‬For there was no bond between the lower and upper realms allowing the upper realm to provide rain below, ‬until finally, ‬man, ‬who existed between the upper and lower worlds, ‬caused the rain to be brought from above to below via the prayer which he offered from below to his blessed Creator. ‬It is at this point, ‬and no sooner, ‬that the upper realm and the lower realm unite, ‬and rain comes from the upper realm to the lower realm,” (‬Maharal, ‬Chidushei Aggadot, ‬on ibid.)‬.

Here, ‬the plants stop just as they are about to break through the soil. ‬They do not develop and grow. ‬They are waiting for rain, ‬yet the rain does not come! ‬Why? ‬Because man had not yet prayed. ‬And, ‬on the other end, ‬though the rain is in the heavens, ‬waiting to fall upon the earth, ‬it does not receive the order to fall. ‬What is it waiting for? ‬For man's prayer. ‬This is what is meant by the words “‬and there was no man to work the ground.” ‬There was no human to pray for rainfall! ‬The earth faces the heavens and nothing happens, ‬everything waits ‬. ‬. ‬.

But the moment that man's prayer is heard, ‬a wonderful event will take place in creation! ‬Man's prayer will create a bond between heaven and earth: ‬rain for the plants, ‬plants for the rain. ‬Therefore the sages say, “‬This teaches you that the Almighty longs for the prayers of the righteous” (‬ibid.)‬. ‬Only man appreciated the importance of rain! “‬When man came, ‬however, ‬and he realized that it was necessary for the world, ‬he prayed for it and it fell, ‬causing trees and plants to spring forth” (‬Rashi on Bereshit ‬2:3)‬. ‬It turns out that it is man who is the conductor of the orchestra of creation, ‬and he unites and joins the heavens and earth.

We have now gained an awareness of the triangular covenant which exists between the earth, ‬the rain, ‬and man, ‬and of the key which opens the gates and creates the bond between them ‬- ‬the prayer of man. ‬Therefore, ‬we may arrange the triangle in such a manner that the top angle is man's prayer, ‬and it rests upon the foundation of the two other angles: ‬earth and rain.

Noteworthy is the fact that it is none other than Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai who informs us of this covenant. ‬It is possible that he was referring to all of humankind as being included in this covenant, “‬And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks” (‬Isaiah ‬61:5)‬. ‬This promise is fulfilled when Israel merits it (‬see Berakhot ‬35b)‬. ‬It is also possible that Rabbi Shimon said what he did when he left the cave for the second time (‬see Shabbat ‬33b)‬, ‬after having learned that contributing to the inhabitation of the world has value when carried out by Israel, ‬those who love the commandments.

[Dr. Dan]

Thanks muman.

So from my understanding, it doesn't matter that the third day was grass and the fourth day the sub.  It could be vice versa.  man was needed to pray to bring forth trees.

[Chai]

Thanks 

[edu]

Dear Dr. Dan
I don't necessarily understand the Biblical account of creation in the same way that you do, but I do wish to comment that you start with a false assumption
You stated

I asked what the moral of the story is to creating plans before heavenly objects in particular the sun if plants require sunlight to survive...

Plants do not necessarily need sunlight as we know it to survive. Most of them, (I think but I am not sure there are exceptions) need a light source. On the first day a light source was created.
So even working under your understanding of the Biblical account of Creation, we are being informed that G-d has already put in alternatives to sustaining the food supply in the world, other than the system that we are familiar with. To paraphrase Rashi, G-d saw that the initial light that he created would be abused by the wicked, so he stored it away for the future time for the Righteous.

[Dr. Dan]

Dear Dr. Dan
I don't necessarily understand the Biblical account of creation in the same way that you do, but I do wish to comment that you start with a false assumption
You stated Plants do not necessarily need sunlight as we know it to survive. Most of them, (I think but I am not sure there are exceptions) need a light source. On the first day a light source was created.
So even working under your understanding of the Biblical account of Creation, we are being informed that G-d has already put in alternatives to sustaining the food supply in the world, other than the system that we are familiar with. To paraphrase Rashi, G-d saw that the initial light that he created would be abused by the wicked, so he stored it away for the future time for the Righteous.

I know this explanation.  I think  however that day three is a continuation of day two.  And day four is where it is so even the seeds and  grass can marvel at the heavens until man comes to orchestrate the heavens with the earth to sprout plants and trees. 

I just figures that out.  Too bad I can't write this right now on an ask jtf commentary.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also could have something to do with the fact that people worshiped the sun and stars/planets. This minimized its affects and G-D was/is teaching a moral lesson in regards to this phenomena.

[Dr. Dan]

Also could have something to do with the fact that people worshiped the sun and stars/planets. This minimized its affects and G-D was/is teaching a moral lesson in regards to this phenomena.

What do you mean?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

What do you mean?

 Torah is not a scientific book it is a moral book. Many people at the time looked upon the sun as the source of everything including plants and life. G-D is saying you know what I created all of these, the sun is important only as my messenger and not THE source of everything.
 For us its easier to understand, but many people back then were steeped in this and thus worshiped things like the sun and stars. Soo now shattering and minimizing their false beliefs was important.

[Dr. Dan]

Torah is not a scientific book it is a moral book. Many people at the time looked upon the sun as the source of everything including plants and life. G-D is saying you know what I created all of these, the sun is important only as my messenger and not THE source of everything.
 For us its easier to understand, but many people back then were steeped in this and thus worshiped things like the sun and stars. Soo now shattering and minimizing their false beliefs was important.

Good one..I like this explanation.

[muman613]

Torah is not a scientific book it is a moral book. Many people at the time looked upon the sun as the source of everything including plants and life. G-D is saying you know what I created all of these, the sun is important only as my messenger and not THE source of everything.
 For us its easier to understand, but many people back then were steeped in this and thus worshiped things like the sun and stars. Soo now shattering and minimizing their false beliefs was important.

But this does not explain the answer as to why the plants were made before the light. The original question was concerning why the plants were created before the light source. The question as to whether it was a moral imperative for idol worshippers is not applicable to the question posed by Dr Dan.

By the way (to edu above) , the sages do not believe that the light which was made on the Day One is actually physical light capable of sustaining plants as we know them. The sages explain that the light which was created on day one was actually spiritual light which he then put away for the Messianic era. Thus the explanation given above does not make sense when considering this question. The light which was created on Day One was not light which we see today.


http://www.torah.org/learning/basics/nutshell/part13.html

The following essay is only the slightest glimpse of an aspect of the Torah as it emerges in the kabbalistic tradition. The topic of this essay is light, but it's not the kind of light we're accustomed to. It's an altogether different sort of light, a spiritual "light" that has the quality of illumination, but not in the physical sense. This isn't a light that brightens a dark room, rather, this is a light that is present within the hidden essence of all existence, life, and history.

.
.
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Clearly, there was a creation of some kind of light on the first day of creation that was altogether different from the light of the sun and the moon that was created on the fourth day. The question is just exactly what was this "light" before light?

In kabbalah, the epiphany of creation is termed ohr aiyn sof, which means "the appearance of G-d's light." The instant of creation is the birth of relationship, and this birth is expressed by the word "light." The expression and manifestation of G-d in creation is called "light."

Without light, life is not possible. The same is true of "light." Without it, there is no possibility of life. The "light" of G-d is what makes existence not only possible, but meaningful. More than just what sustains life, G-d's "light" is what elevates life. It's what creates the possiblity for spirituality, and it's what places a relationship with G-d within the reach of every human being.

G-d Is One, And So Is "Light"


In seeking G-d, we seek what is known in Hebrew as echad, the oneness and unity of actual, absolute being.
The Shema—"Listen O' Israel, G-d our Lord, G-d is One"—is the ultimate Jewish statement of what life is all about. Life is about the potential relationship with echad, with G-d. It has been observed that the Shema contains twenty-five letters, and it just happens that the word "light" is the twenty-fifth word in the Torah. (By the way, "light" was also created on the twenty-fifth day of the month of Elul, and the holiday of Chanukah—the festival of lights—begins on the twenty-fifth day of the month of Kislev.)

The number twenty-five, it turns out, is a very significant number. As a rule, where you find allusions to twenty-five in the Torah, you also find G-d, and "light."

Regarding the light being hidden:

http://www.ou.org/torah/frankel/5762/vayeshev62.htm

Jewish Tradition also speaks of two types of light.  One was that which flooded the Universe on the First “Day” of Creation, after HaShem uttered (Bereshit 1:3), “Let there be light.”  The other type, the more spiritual, was not appropriate to be enjoyed by the wicked in This World, and therefore, according to RASHI citing the Midrash on verse Bereshit (1:4), was hidden away for the righteous to enjoy in the World-to-Come.

We also speak of the soul of the human being as “the light of G-d,” in the verse (Mishlei 20:27), “The light of G-d is the soul of Man, searching out all the inner recesses of the human being.”  Here we see the conscience built into the human being by its Creator, portrayed as the “light of G-d,” examining the motivations of each action, by the light of “Right or Wrong” or “Good or Evil.”

[Dr. Dan]

Here is another thought:

On day one Gd separated light from darkness..

Meaning He separated good from evil.

On the second day He separated the sky from the waters...

This means He separated the after and before life from this world.

And then He created land, seeds, and then the sun etc until day 6, man was created and it was he who did some work to the soil, prayed for rain, and plants started to grow.  When man prays to Gd in the heavens, usually heavens respond to bring sustenance to the earth.  The heavens open to the earth when man has faith in Gd.

It shouldn't matter when the sun was created.  The importance of the story was that heaven needed to be separate from this life.

[edu]

Muman stated

By the way (to edu above) , the sages do not believe that the light which was made on the Day One is actually physical light capable of sustaining plants as we know them.

I believe you can interpret the sages differently. I also wish to point out that when Aharon/Aaron placed his staff in the Mishkan/Tabernacle  see Bamidbar/Numbers 17:23 plant-life miraculously emerged from the staff. So don't be so sure what is indeed needed to sustain the plants.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Rabbi Pinhas ben Yair said: Why did G-D decree that grasses,herbs and fruit trees should sprout from the ground on the third day, and He created the luminaries on the fourth day? To make His strenght known, that He can make the earth sprout vegetation without the luminaries.
   Midrash Tadshei 1, cited by Kasher in Toras HaBriah (found in the book The Challenge of Creation)
 
 He then goes on to explain similarly how I said that the sun was the most of all revered and worshipped  by many cultures. .......
" It is neither created at the Beginning, which might lead one to concider it a per-eminent being, nor at the end, which might lead one to consider it the pinnacle of creation; instead it is created in the middle of the process, on the fourth day."
 ( I guess the whole chapter deals with this issue, I just opened the book tonight).