Author Topic: The "Evolution" of the Olive  (Read 7323 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2011, 09:24:52 PM »
Above is text, also a shiur on this topic by another Rav-
"When Judaism Becomes Divorced from Reality – Part 1    
Some rabbis posit an alternate reality in which a kezyith – the volume of an olive – is not really the size of an olive. They practice a religion that denies reason. This is an affront to the Torah."

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/192-when-judaism-becomes-divorced-from-reality-part-1
http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/194-when-judaism-becomes-divorced-from-reality-part-2

 (also short essay on this by someone else) http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-articles/30-other-auths/384-on-matza-soccer-balls-and-red-wine-
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2011, 10:25:28 PM »
It seems, as always, there are differences of opinions concerning how much matzah to eat on Pesach. Apparently the dispute hinges on the difference between a ketzaya {Olive} and a Kebeitza {Egg}...

I found the following written on the topic of the size of kezayat...



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http://www.vbm-torah.org/archive/halak60/25matzah.doc

C.  The Measurement of a Kezayit

   There are several different aspects to this issue; we will deal with them one at a time:

The Relationship Between a "Kezayit" and a "Kebeitza"

   An apparent contradiction within the Gemara seems to emerge regarding the size of a kezayit in proportion to a kebeitza.  The Gemara in Yoma (80a) establishes that the human throat cannot swallow more than a single egg of a hen, and the Gemara in Keritut (14a) states that the human throat cannot contain more than two olives.  The implication is, therefore, that a kebeitza - the size of an egg - is twice the size of a kezayit - the size of an olive.  Other Gemarot, however, indicate otherwise.  The Gemara in Eruvin (82b) concludes that the size of two average "meals" amounts to eighteen "gerogerot" - dates.  Now from the mishna there in Eruvin it emerges that two average "meals" contain five and one-third kebeitzim.  Thus, we must conclude that five and one-third kebeitzim contain eighteen dates, and therefore one date equals .296 of an egg, or a little less than a third. 

   Herein lies the problem.  The Gemara in Shabbat (91a) records that Rava asked Rav Nachman, "What is the law if one threw an olive-sized piece of teruma into a house that was tamei?" [He replied: "The law in regards] to what? If in regards to Shabbat [a minimum of] the size of a date is required."  The implication here is that a kezayit is smaller than a gerogerot  Thus, if a date is around one-third of an egg, then an olive must be even smaller than that!

In other words, whereas this calculation renders a kezayit less than a third of a kebeitza, the inevitable conclusion we reached based on the Gemarot in Yoma and Keritut is that a kezayit equals one-half a kebeitza.

The Halakhic Ruling

   One view in the Rishonim is that of Rabbenu Tam (Tosafot in Eruvin 80b, Yoma 80a, and Chulin 103b), the Raavya (Pesachim 525), Terumat Hadeshen (1:139), Maharil ("Seder Hahaggada") and other Rishonim.  They maintain that a kezayit is half a kebeitza, and the aforementioned Gemara in Eruvin dealt with a different, smaller type of date (such as one without a pit).

   The second opinion is that of the Rambam, who indicates that a kezayit equals around a third of a kebeitza (see Hilkhot Eruvin 1:9), as understood by several Acharonim (Magen Avraham 486:1, Peri Chadash).  To resolve the aforementioned Gemara in Keritut according to this view, the Gera (to Shulchan Arukh O.C. 486) suggests that the Gemara there refers to eggs without the shells, while the Yeshuot Yaakov (O.C. 301) explains simply that the Gemara in Keritut argues on the Gemara in Eruvin.  (Other answers have been offered, as well.  A particularly intriguing view is that of the Rashba [Mishmeret Habayit 96a], who maintains that a kezayit is even smaller - less than a quarter of a kebeitza!)

   The Shulchan Arukh (486) states, "The measurement of a 'kezayit' - some say that it equals a half a 'beitza.'"  At first glance, it appears that the Shulchan Arukh rejects the view of the Rambam.  It may be, however, that he actually viewed the Rambam's position - that a kezayit equals less than a third of kebeitza - as the most instinctively obvious opinion, whereas this amount corresponds with the size of olives in his day.  He therefore felt the need to cite the dissenting view, that empirical evidence notwithstanding, a kezayit equals one-half a kebeitza.  (See Rav Chayim Na'eh, "Shi'urin Shel Torah," p. 190, note 24.)

   The Mishna Berura (486:1; 190:10; 456:2) rules that regarding Torah obligations one should follow the more stringent view and eat the size of half a kebeitza, while for issues involving rabbinically ordained requirements one may be lenient and use only a third of a beitza.  When an issue of "berakha acharona" is at stake, one should recite a berakha only on the consumption of half a beitza, since we never recite a berakha when its obligation is in doubt.  Likewise, whereas a berakha is recited on the mitzva of marror, one should follow the stringent view despite the fact that its obligation nowadays is rabbinic, unless one is ill and finds it difficult to eat a full half-beitza of marror.

   All this regards the proportion of a kezayit to a kebeitza.  We now turn our attention the size of a kebeitza itself.

The Measurement of a "Kebeitza"

   Two basic questions surround the measurement of a "kebeitza" - whether or not to include the shell in the measurement, and the precise measurement of an average-sized egg with its shell.

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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 09:50:02 AM »
Mumam- The essay says how the whole issue of the Kbeitza came into being in the first place. And which eggs were they talking about- NOT the modern european one's but the one's they had available just like the modern Arab eggs which are much smaller.
 + the whole issue why they started looking at eggs for olive sizes- Babylonians didn't have olives.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 07:00:19 PM »
Mumam- The essay says how the whole issue of the Kbeitza came into being in the first place. And which eggs were they talking about- NOT the modern european one's but the one's they had available just like the modern Arab eggs which are much smaller.
 + the whole issue why they started looking at eggs for olive sizes- Babylonians didn't have olives.

The rishonim in Europe did not have olives.   Tosafot never saw an olive in person.     I think Babylonians would have seen olives, no?    Not just from travel to and from Eretz Yisrael, but they were probably also grown in Babylon... why wouldn't they be?  I thought they were widely available throughout the middle east.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2011, 07:02:05 PM »
Btw, in this thread http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,28614.25.html  I wrote up a summary of a keziath shiur by Rabbi Bar Chaim.   Is this the same shiur?   I think he may have put a few similar ones on the website, I don't remember.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2011, 07:34:42 PM »
The rishonim in Europe did not have olives.   Tosafot never saw an olive in person.     I think Babylonians would have seen olives, no?    Not just from travel to and from Eretz Yisrael, but they were probably also grown in Babylon... why wouldn't they be?  I thought they were widely available throughout the middle east.

 Babylonians did not have olives, that is why those in Israel made fun of the babylonians who didn't even have olive oil. I think that is also why they started to compare olives to eggs and other things (but later on those comparing things to eggs were using European large eggs and not the eggs of the middle east and of Bavel. Thus inflating the size of olives going higher and higher in most cases because they didn't have nor see things like olives!
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2011, 07:40:59 PM »
" The second opinion is that of the Rambam, who indicates that a kezayit equals around a third of a kebeitza (see Hilkhot Eruvin 1:9), as understood by several Acharonim (Magen Avraham 486:1, Peri Chadash)."
 
  The second sentence is important. If you check closely (read the essay I posted) the Rambam is mentioned, and see in the context where he mentions olives and eggs. also check which and what size egg he was speaking about (when you read "eggs" you think about the European brand of eggs and not the ones in the middle east). We see in the galut all of these confusions started. In Israel (and the Mediterranean in this case) people knew exactly what "normal sized" olives were, how they looked like, and what the obligations were, etc.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2011, 08:01:10 PM »
" The second opinion is that of the Rambam, who indicates that a kezayit equals around a third of a kebeitza (see Hilkhot Eruvin 1:9), as understood by several Acharonim (Magen Avraham 486:1, Peri Chadash)."
 
  The second sentence is important. If you check closely (read the essay I posted) the Rambam is mentioned, and see in the context where he mentions olives and eggs. also check which and what size egg he was speaking about (when you read "eggs" you think about the European brand of eggs and not the ones in the middle east). We see in the galut all of these confusions started. In Israel (and the Mediterranean in this case) people knew exactly what "normal sized" olives were, how they looked like, and what the obligations were, etc.

Interesting.  I did not know that about the babylonians.  The rishonim in spain did see olives so I'm surprised they wouldn't grow any in iraq/iran

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2011, 09:44:49 AM »
Interesting.  I did not know that about the babylonians.  The rishonim in spain did see olives so I'm surprised they wouldn't grow any in iraq/iran

 I think its just the climate. And your correct the Rishonim in Spain did have olives, that is why they say something like 16 olives is an egg. Or better yett most don't even mention this since it was apparent what an olive is and what size it is. If anything they had the olives in front of them on the table and everyone knew exactly what they needed and not have to go through all the detailed discussions and guesses of the Askenasim.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline edu

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2011, 04:32:29 AM »
Here is a link to a recent audio lecture that Rabbi Mordechai Willig made on the subject of the olive http://www.yutorah.com/lectures/lecture.cfm/766468/Rabbi_Mordechai_I_Willig/Evolution_&_Change_in_Halacha:_Measurements_(Part_2)_&_Kezayis# The lecture is entitled "Evolution and Change in Halacha: Measurements (part 2) and Kezayis

I also found a source which I think is relevant to the subject.
I will quote it now in Hebrew and I will try bli neder to explain it's meaning and possible implication at another time.
תלמוד ירושלמי מסכת יומא פרק ב דף לט טור ג /ה"א

רבי חמא בר עוקבה בשם רבי יהושע בן לוי אין קמיצה פחות משני זתים ואין הקטרה פחותה מכזית רבי יצחק בי רבי אלעזר שאל מעתה כהן שאין ידו מחזקת כשני זיתים פסול מן העבודה

Offline edu

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 01:27:13 AM »
Now to explain and translate the Hebrew source I previously quoted
It says in the Talmud Yerushalmi:
Quote
Rabbi Chama the son of Ukva said in the name of Rabbi Yehoshua son of Levi, A Kemitza is not less than 2 olives and there is no burning (on the altar) less than an olive's worth. Rabbbi Yitzchak the son of Rabbi Eliezer, queried, now (in light of this information) it would seem that a Cohain whose hand can not contain 2 olives worth (of dough, of bread, or wafers) is unfit for the Temple service
Now the Chazon Ish, who is an advocate of the position that the olive of the Talmud is much larger than the olives of today (according to the appendix of זמני ההלכה - למעשה) contended that an olive was either
50cc (cubic centimeters) or 33cc depending (on what ratio should one make between the olive and the egg).
Thus according to the Chazon Ish, the Kemitza of a typical Cohain (descendant of Aharon/Aaron) would contain at least 66cc or 100cc of dough, bread or wafers. 66cc is 2.2317254888874003 ounces and 100cc is 3.3814022558900003 ounces.
What is a Kemitza? According to most Rabbis, if you take the three middle fingers, of the 5 fingers of your right hand and join them one next to the other and have them touch the (lower part of the) palm of your hand, then the amount of dough, bread, or wafers that one can insert into that space is a Kemitza. Rambam's view is that you should also add your little finger (or pinky) to the other 3 fingers mentioned previously, which makes the space of the Kemitza slightly larger.

Offline muman613

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 01:46:34 AM »
I think its just the climate. And your correct the Rishonim in Spain did have olives, that is why they say something like 16 olives is an egg. Or better yett most don't even mention this since it was apparent what an olive is and what size it is. If anything they had the olives in front of them on the table and everyone knew exactly what they needed and not have to go through all the detailed discussions and guesses of the Askenasim.

Tag, I don't want to have an issue but I have a question.... Why are you so antagonistic against Ashkenazim? Several times I have noticed subtle digs at European Jewry.... Am I just totally off the mark?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: The "Evolution" of the Olive
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 10:39:32 AM »
Tag, I don't want to have an issue but I have a question.... Why are you so antagonistic against Ashkenazim? Several times I have noticed subtle digs at European Jewry.... Am I just totally off the mark?



 I'm not. I just said that the Askenasim (meaning Jews living in Europe) were not familiar with olives. Soo when this question came up many of them didn't say the correct measurements since they did not see olives that's all. If anything this is defending them and stating that they made human error in this subject since they did not have olives grow in Europe.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.