Author Topic: Why we don't need an intermediary - such as an angel - for our prayers  (Read 2396 times)

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Offline edu

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Rabbi Shlomo Brody talks about this subject at
http://www.yutorah.com/lectures/lecture.cfm/737299/Rabbi_Shlomo_Brody/Angels_are_Not_Necessary:__Shame,_Selichot,_and_Standing_Directly_Before_God
The Lecture also goes under a different title
Angels are Not Necessary: Shame, Selichot, and Standing Directly Before God


Offline edu

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Re: Why we don't need an intermediary - such as an angel - for our prayers
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2011, 01:15:31 AM »
Rabbi Ami Merzel I found also lectured on this subject but he presents both the more stricter and more lenient viewpoints on this subject.
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/759616/Rabbi_Ami_Merzel/Mishna_Brura_Siman_581b_-_Tefillah_to_Angels_and_Kivrei_Tzaddikim
Some comments that I want to add that I think were missed by Rabbi Merzel's lecture.
There is a different girsa (variant reading) of the Gemara in tractate Sotah regarding, Calev's prayer in the Maarat Hamachpela, the Cave of the Patriarchs. The variant reading fits in with the view of the Mishna Brura that we are not allowed to address our prayers to the souls of living or dead individuals, but rather just ask G-d that in their merit, he should answer our prayers.
I saw in Igrote Moshe,O.C. Section 5 , Siman 43, that Rabbi Moshe Feinstein also discusses the various viewpoints on this issue. There he says that the strict opinion, also includes, using the souls of dead individuals as intermediaries as part of the prohibition mentioned in Dvarim/Deuteronomy 18:11 of seeking out after the dead.

In Rabbi Merzel's lecture, cited above he brings up an interesting issue that some Rabbis, such as the Gra, and Rabbi Neventzal (and if I heard correctly from another source, also Rabbi David Bar-Hayyim) don't say the popular Shalom Aleichem prayer on Friday evening, because among other things the prayers says bless me to have peace, angels of peace.
I however, think I have a way to justify the prayer, without having it being considered as praying to an intermediary, but I would like to research the issue more.

Offline muman613

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Re: Why we don't need an intermediary - such as an angel - for our prayers
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2011, 02:16:30 AM »
I discussed some of these issues a year or so ago concerning the practice of davening at the graves of Tzadiks.

We do not pray to the Tzadik, we pray to Hashem in the merit of the Tzadik that our prayers which we direct at Hashem be accepted in the tzadiks merit.

I understand this because Chassidus teaches that in each generation there are Rabbis who are tzadiks, and even hidden tzadiks, in whos merit the world is judged favorably. The Breslevers still daven in the merit of Rabbi Nachman and go to his grave. Some have misunderstood this to indicate that Breslev is davening TO Rabbi Nachman. But this is not the case.

I have seen explanations concerning Shalom Alechem, the song on Shabbos that we sing welcoming the angels. I will wait to see what you write about it before searching for what I have read before.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline edu

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Re: Why we don't need an intermediary - such as an angel - for our prayers
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2011, 01:10:47 AM »
When one is discussing the prayer of Shalom Aleichem one should be aware of at least two facts. On the one hand Shalom Aleichem is a relatively new prayer in Jewish terms, being only several hundred years old. On the other hand it does somewhat parallel a passage in the Talmud, tractate Shabbat
The passage as translated by Soncino states:
It was taught, R. Jose {Yosi} son of R. Judah {Yehuda} said: Two ministering angels accompany man on the eve of the Sabbath from the synagogue to his home, one a good [angel] and one an evil [one]. And when he arrives home and finds the lamp burning, the table laid and the couch [bed] covered with a spread the good angel exclaims, ‘May it be even thus on another Sabbath [too],’ and the evil angel unwillingly responds ‘amen’. But if not, the evil angel exclaims, ‘May it be even thus on another Sabbath [tool,’ and the good angel unwillingly responds, ‘amen’. {end of quote}.
The Talmudic passage however, does not mention people making requests from these 2 angels. It just gives us a spiritual window into what the angels are doing.

In light of the prohibition to pray to angels, what alternative explanation do we have for the words in Shalom Aleichem, "Bless me for peace, angels of peace"?
My gut feeling, to get out of this problem, is to contend that the words bless me for peace, angels of peace is not a request (which is forbidden), but an order or command. And indeed I found confirmation for this viewpoint in Siddur Beit Yaakov of Rabbi Yaakov Emdeen {some spell the name, Emden) in his commentary on Shalom Aleichem.

And I have at least 2 precedents that giving orders to an angel is not part of the prohibition of praying to angels. The first precedent involves the story of Rabbi Pinchas Ben Yair in the Talmud tractate Chulin, page 7a, who according to Tosafot, gave a command to an angel to split the river that was blocking his way, because he needed to get to the other side, in order to redeem captives as well as a few other important deeds.

In the Torah itself Breishit/Genesis 32:27 we find Yaakov /Jacob struggling with someone, who the sages identified as an angel. He tells the angel that he would not release him, unless he blesses him. In that situation we see he was clearly compelling the angel and not requesting a request from him.

In the case of Yaakov, in what way did compelling the angel to make a blessing help?
Rashi, says the angel wanted to wait until Yaakov would sacrifice sacrifices at Bet-El before blessing him together with the other angels.
Yaakov successfully demanded that he be blessed immediately.
Perhaps, this is the benefit, that the composer of Shalom Aleichem sought for those that recite, "Bless me for peace, angels of peace". Namely, we demand that the Angels immediately bless the Jews when coming home from synagogue Friday night, instead of taking the risk, that if they wait long enough, something might come up to stop the blessing from ever coming to be.
Alternatively, the composer of Shalom Aleichem, might have believed that saying Shalom Aleichem has no real effect on the angels decision to bless or not to bless. However, by singing the song, it draws attention to the spiritual reality of the good and bad angel mentioned in tractate Shabbat, and this by itself is worthwhile.



Offline muman613

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Re: Why we don't need an intermediary - such as an angel - for our prayers
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2011, 02:44:30 AM »
Very good points.... I believe you have explained this very well.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14