Author Topic: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community  (Read 2921 times)

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Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« on: December 27, 2011, 05:34:42 PM »
Here is a video example from a few years ago, of askanim trying to manipulate Rav Eliashiv.   It is askanim who are the ones that want to create new modesty codes and impose them on people by force.  They are not esteemed talmidei chachamim or respected leaders.  They are not even known!   Here Rav Eliashiv refutes them and tells them plainly he has no authority to issue such a code.   
http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2009/05/rav-elyashiv-on-modesty.html

I post this example because I literally watched the video alongside my Talmud rabbi, when it was first circulated on the internet.    He found this video very entertaining, and he told me that this is how they try to convince great rabbis to take action that is not warranted, and that similar things happen all the time.  There are probably other videos floating around (maybe the ones about sheitles from india, lol). 

So who is it that you agree with?   Rabbi Eliashiv?  Or some 2-bit "activist" that wants to control every detail of your life?   Your choice, of course

I raise this issue because it is related to the bus issue, even though this video is not specifically about buses, but about general proclamations and codes on modesty.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2011, 05:41:02 PM »
This issue is not new and unfortunately still exists.
http://www.zootorah.com/controversy/ravfrank.html
Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank on the Manipulation of Rabbis by Zealots

Rabbi Tzvi Pesach Frank (1873-1961), a student of Rabbi Eliezer Gordon and Rabbi Shmuel Salant, was Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem. He wrote a letter to Rabbi Chaim Hirschensohn about events occurring in Jerusalem in the 1920s. The letter was published in Rabbi Chaim Hirschensohn, Malki Ba-Kodesh IV (St. Louis: Moinester Printing Co., 5679 – 5682), Letter 10 (dated 18 Adar Sheni, 5681, 1921), pp. 43-44 [See Porush, pp. 236-237.]

    'As I wind up my letter, I should let his honor know a bit of the affairs of the town [Jerusalem], though it is not my way to write such things, for we could not write enough. However ... directed us to inform his Honor. According to ... his Honor has the ability to correct things. Having heard that it will of benefit, I find myself obligated to uncover the mystery enveloping the conduct of our city.

    The Gaon, our Master RAY HaKohen Kook (may he live) was accepted here as Rav by the majority of the Holy Community here. It is well known that the members of Kollel Ungarin are envious of our Russian and Polish brethren. Especially, so that the proceeds earmarked to the Hungarians should increase, it is not good for them that the Chief Rabbi of the Holy City be other than Hungarian. So what did the members of Kollel Ungarin do? A few of them gathered together ... At their head the old lad ... He propagandized to found Vaad Ashkenazi (Ashkenazic Council). Now this old lad is a great expert in arranging elections from all, revealed only to him. The entire electoral process is invisible. It is difficult to describe in writing his diligence in this matter. He puts together a list of a large committee, also a steering committee. On the surface, all is lovely. On the inside, all is rotten, for from the ranks of the Hungarians and Galicians he picks... youngsters and from the other kollelim, when he sees an old man or imbecile who won't understand his tricks, he brings him into the Vaad. So the result of the invisible election is that he is the Secretary and young fellow... the Chairman. They write and sign tens of thousands of letters to America and the entire world in the name of all the Ashkenazim in Jerusalem ... that Rav Hayyim Sonnenfeld is the Rav here, when all see and know that R. Hayyim Sonnenfeld was never, and will not be, the Rav, for he is an old, frail man for whom it is not possible to get involved in the affairs of the town. But this old lad uses him and his name as a pawn to destroy an entire city. He and his gang of empty fellows publicly, brazenly insult the Gaon Kook (may he live). The old lad got together with young writers who frequent the home of the ancient Rav Yishak Yeruham Diskin (may his light shine), for this old man is under the influence of young secretaries... They manipulate him whichever way they please and obtain his signature for all their antics. In my estimation, he is not guilty at all for he cannot see writing, and signing is also difficult for him. The secretaries made for him a stamp of his signature which is an exact replica and they write and sign whatever they please. Woe to a generation whose leaders are such lads, little foxes.

    About six weeks ago, I spoke with Rav Chaim Sonnenfeld, and at one point, I asked him if it is right that he signs himself as the Rav of the Ashkenazim in our Holy City... He answered me that the truth is, he himself does not sign so, but they made for him a stamp and wrote this on it.

    The Gaon, Our Master RAY Kook (may he live) is the Rav here. All the largest institutions are under his presidency. He is the Rav of the city and carries the burden of the community. They placed new, inexperienced people to carry the load of the community... These sycophants and insolent fellows stroke these old men to their advantage.

    I wrote these things hurriedly, without order, as it does not fit my temperament to take care of such things. The upshot is, if his Honor can publicize the truth that the aforementioned elder sages – without disparaging them – are not communal leaders and one cannot pay attention to their signature. The affairs of the Jerusalem community, general and specific, temporal and spiritual are neither the domain of the elder sages nor their followers, who as a rule are simple folks who have put on a cloak of hypocrisy, announcing that they are zealots of the Lord. They use the names of the elder sages to blind people's eyes, while anyone discerning sees that their aim is not truth. They employ smear sheets to stir up controversy in Israel.

    His honor should let me know if any benefit may come of my words, which are but a drop of the sea of what should be known... '

Rabbeinu Tam and the Rosh on the Manipulation of Rabbis

Rabbi Yom Tov Lipmann Heller (1579-1654, author of Tosfos Yom Tov and Pilpula Charifta), in his work Ma'adnei Yom Tov on the Rosh (under the Rosh in the standard Vilna Edition of the Talmud), Berachot Chap. 4, Rosh siman 14, ot lamed ( s.v. "Vechol divreihem divrei kabalah veyeish lismoch aleihem"). Rabbi Heller discusses the reliability of the Bahag – Sefer Halachos Gedolos.

    "All of the words of [Bahag] represent received tradition, and may be relied upon." [The Rosh] wrote thus as well in Chapter Eilu Tereifot siman 18. This applies where there is no contradiction [to Bahag's words] in the [Babylonian] Talmud – for in Chapter Rabbi Eliezer Demilah [the Rosh] writes in the name of the the Rif that Bahag's words should not be relied on, for they are in error; and furthermore, in Chapter Eilu Megalchin siman 3 [the Rosh] writes in the name of Rabbeinu Tam that we do not rely upon the words of Bahag, because he was blind, and sometimes his students wrote in his name what he did not instruct [them to] and what never [even] occurred to him [i.e., what he did not believe]. Cf. later in our chapter, siman 20. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2011, 05:48:31 PM »
Good citation.  I remember reading that one from Rabbi Frank.  It's an unfortunate reality, but one we cannot ignore.  And I think it has gotten worse.   

In the two places where I saw the video posted (rationalist judaism blog, and also the daattorah blog of Rabbi Daniel Eidensohn), in both cases people commented on the chutzpah utilized by the ones asking questions to Rav Eliashiv and their abrasiveness towards him, even as they are supposedly upholding the Mishna Berura and the laws of modesty and this is someone they are talking to that we should revere and respect.   They appear very hypocritical in behaving that way.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #3 on: December 27, 2011, 05:55:41 PM »
I have heard that term before- "Askanim" and I know towards which types it refers to, but what is the exact translation of the word?
 Anyway these are the best tools of the hellinsts who use them to fight against Judaism.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #4 on: December 27, 2011, 06:13:39 PM »
I have heard that term before- "Askanim" and I know towards which types it refers to, but what is the exact translation of the word?
 Anyway these are the best tools of the hellinsts who use them to fight against Judaism.

I found the definition as 'Community Activists' or 'Lay Leaders'...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #5 on: December 27, 2011, 06:16:14 PM »

 They appear very hypocritical in behaving that way.

 They claim we need to follow the "Gedolim" and "Daas Torah" yett when they disagree with them they do things such as bomb their car!
 Or even R' Elyashiv they didn't recognize him when they disagreed politically with him and when he changed his wordings, they now claim he is the Gadol and "Daas Torah", thus apparently whatever he says is a must upon us all.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #6 on: December 27, 2011, 09:13:30 PM »
Here is a video of 12 or 13 (and 1 child) of them screaming Yimah Shemo to Rav Steinman who himself is very "Haredi", but calls for and supports Nahal Haredi units of the I.D.F.




 (These are NK from what I was told).
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 09:19:35 PM by Tag-MahirTzedek »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #7 on: December 27, 2011, 09:31:56 PM »
They need to yell yimach shemo to members of the Lewinsky administration.

Offline Dr. Dan

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 09:38:45 PM »
Kol hakavod on your evidences on this debate.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 09:44:31 PM »
To add to the video of those protesting Rav Steinman (Besides trying to murder him in Bnai Brak), they are 12 or 13 or soo people. Those attending his lectures in America when he came were in the thousands.
 Kol Hakavod to him for not being intimidated and standing his ground.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Example of how Askanim operate in the Orthodox Community
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 10:01:15 PM »
The NK are certifiable nuts in the Jewish nut bowl....

I have said repeatedly they should be declared Harem by all other strains of Judaism. Thus they will be isolated and cut off from the Jewish people.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14