Author Topic: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today  (Read 1194 times)

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Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« on: December 29, 2011, 10:35:09 AM »
And all the "religious" zionists who scream "fanaticism!", "extremism!", "sexism!" were cops, he would have been thrown to jail for the rest of his life. After all, he forbade women to get out of the house more than 2 times a month.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 01:43:07 PM »
And all the "religious" zionists who scream "fanaticism!", "extremism!", "sexism!" were cops, he would have been thrown to jail for the rest of his life. After all, he forbade women to get out of the house more than 2 times a month.

 Where is the proof for this?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2011, 01:59:53 PM »
Quote from: Mishneh Torah, Halchot Ishut, Chaper 13, Halacha 11
Nevertheless, it is uncouth for a woman always to leave home - this time to go out and another time to go on the street. Indeed, a husband should prevent a wife from doing this and not allow her to go out more than once or twice a month, as is necessary. For there is nothing more attractive for a woman than to sit in the corner of her home, as [implied by Psalms 45:14]: "All the glory of the king's daughter is within"

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2011, 02:19:39 PM »
This is the whole halacha and the line before you started tells the exact opposite)
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/952887/jewish/Chapter-Thirteen.htm

In a place where it is customary for a woman not to go out to the market place wearing merely a cap on her head, but also a veil that covers her entire body like a cloak, her husband must provide at least the least expensive type of veil for her. If he is wealthy, [he must provide her with a veil whose quality] is commensurate with his wealth.

[He must give her this veil] so that she can visit her father's home, a house of mourning or a wedding celebration. For every woman should be given the opportunity to visit her father and to go to a house of mourning or a wedding celebration as an expression of kindness to her friends and relatives, for [this will have a reciprocal effect], and they will return the visits. For a woman [at home] is not confined in a jail, from which she cannot come and go.

Nevertheless, it is uncouth for a woman always to leave home - this time to go out and another time to go on the street. Indeed, a husband should prevent a wife from doing this and not allow her to go out more than once or twice a month, as is necessary.15 For there is nothing more attractive for a woman than to sit in the corner of her home, as [implied by Psalms 45:14]: "All the glory of the king's daughter is within."
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 02:21:35 PM »
Also one needs to know the exact circumstances and society of from which he was speaking on. Do you know 1 serious Rav today who would tell women to stay home every day except perhaps 2ce a month? Is that what you are advocating? 
Also notice him speaking of veils, he is speaking at the place and time of Islamic rule over the society and where it would be necessary for a women to wear a veil as is the costume of the society (or enforced rule by the Islamists).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 02:31:40 PM »
There are some interesting Halachas in that sefer..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Kahane-Was-Right BT

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2011, 02:37:14 PM »
Culture was different in his day.  That was indeed how it was viewed in the places he lived.  For a woman to constantly be going out and about was unseemly.   I don't see how anyone can criticize his comments, he is giving guidelines for how to adhere to the general standards of modesty of that time and place.  For instance, he says in places where the custom is for a woman to wear a veil at the marketplace, you should get her a decent veil that will honor her and not make her a disgrace.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2011, 03:05:41 PM »
And to your question "If HaRambam zt"l was alive today" do you believe that he would tell women that they can not go out more than 1ce or 2ce a month?
 
 I believe that his response includes him knowing the situation and society. That is also why he states "as is necessary" as well.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2011, 08:47:56 PM »
Feminazis shouldn't be allowed out (of jail) at all.

Offline Maimonides

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2011, 09:11:38 PM »
And to your question "If HaRambam zt"l was alive today" do you believe that he would tell women that they can not go out more than 1ce or 2ce a month?
 
 I believe that his response includes him knowing the situation and society. That is also why he states "as is necessary" as well.

He would condemn the vast majority of society that exists in modern Israel, and most of modern Israeli society would condemn him.

When HaRav, Meir Kahane, zecher tzadik livracha, proposed laws in the Knesset to ban sexual relations between Jews and Gentiles and even to segregate Jews from Gentiles in public places, he defended his proposals by referring to Maimonides. Most people on this forum would probably oppose these types of laws, because Jews here have been assimilated to believe in "Western Values" over Halacha. Even I am shocked by these laws that Kahane proposed, because it seems so contradictory to the society we currently live in.
“You must accept the truth from whatever source it comes”- Maimonides

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #10 on: December 29, 2011, 09:21:06 PM »
He would condemn the vast majority of society that exists in modern Israel, and most of modern Israeli society would condemn him.

When HaRav, Meir Kahane, zecher tzadik livracha, proposed laws in the Knesset to ban sexual relations between Jews and Gentiles and even to segregate Jews from Gentiles in public places, he defended his proposals by referring to Maimonides. Most people on this forum would probably oppose these types of laws, because Jews here have been assimilated to believe in "Western Values" over Halacha. Even I am shocked by these laws that Kahane proposed, because it seems so contradictory to the society we currently live in.

 1- Agree.
 2- I would not. If its Halacha its Halacha, but if something is minhag or something proper in one time over another it is different. For example the above Halacha of a man buying a weil for his wife, a vail was brought and worn because that is the society they lived under (Muslim control) and they had to under the rules (rules of the land). That doesn't mean now you need to go out and buy your wife a veil and make her wear a hijab like the Muslims do in arabia.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2011, 09:25:09 PM »
Halacha is something that needs to be studied and applied properly and with deliberation and proper knowledge. One cant cut and paste something from one page or one halacha and therefore automatically say that is a Hova. Only with proper deliberation do laws come.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 10:31:52 PM »
Halacha is something that needs to be studied and applied properly and with deliberation and proper knowledge. One cant cut and paste something from one page or one halacha and therefore automatically say that is a Hova. Only with proper deliberation do laws come.

Indeed... The intent of the Halacha is the main thing. Then it comes to implement it in a practical way...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 10:35:10 PM »
I read Rabbi Melameds approach on A7 today and I agreed with his findings...

Here is a link to his discussion of the Halacha...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11057#.Tv0xQ0RSQYo

His suggestion is the solution which I accept. I don't expect public transportation to cater to the minority who keep a more stringent interpretation of Halacha. This discussion concerns the issue of separate seating on the bus lines. There should be a way a private bus line could cater to this community and make money doing so.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/11057#.Tv0xQ0RSQYo
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline IsraeliGovtAreKapos

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2011, 05:32:21 AM »
I didn't say it's the Halacha for today. My question was as simple as this: would you virtually lynch him and other Gedolim such as Rabbi Kook who said that women should not only be forbidden from being voted to office but also from voting, if they were alive today, like you do to the "extremists" of today, those who don't have a name and a face and because of that you allow yourselves to verbally slaughter them?

Btw, some Rabbis from Bet Shemesh do believe it's the Halacha. So it's not even the question. The question is that if it's "extreme" and "sexist" and even "criminal" to institute this like you dare to say. It's not extreme, it's really moderate. There are Halachot - not institutions - which will make you and the Communists need therapy much more than this institution.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:41:38 AM by Holy Terror »

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2011, 09:51:15 AM »
I didn't say it's the Halacha for today. My question was as simple as this: would you virtually lynch him and other Gedolim such as Rabbi Kook who said that women should not only be forbidden from being voted to office but also from voting, if they were alive today, like you do to the "extremists" of today, those who don't have a name and a face and because of that you allow yourselves to verbally slaughter them?

Btw, some Rabbis from Bet Shemesh do believe it's the Halacha. So it's not even the question. The question is that if it's "extreme" and "sexist" and even "criminal" to institute this like you dare to say. It's not extreme, it's really moderate. There are Halachot - not institutions - which will make you and the Communists need therapy much more than this institution.

 Would not have a problem with limiting voting. And had Rav Kook been alive today after the facts (with the facts on the ground) I'm not even soo certain his approach would have been to stop all women from voting right away.
  I dont believe their is anyone (serious) in Beit Shemesh or elsewhere who believe it is the Halacha to go out and use intimidation against little girls.  If by the way they were going against something serious- for example lets say Hilonim were opening up a strip club or something in Beit Shemesh I would totally sympathize with them using force and other things, but the fact that they choose to fight little girls school which is tzniyut I hold no sympathy for them and their cause.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: If HaRambam zt"l was alive today
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2011, 12:23:48 PM »
Yossile Sarid Yimah Shemo, already jumped in the bandwagon. And as he did to Rav Kahane ZTKL HYD now he wants to ban all religious parties and anything to do with Religion. and precisely using the misguided quotes that are lies and deliberate mistranslations and misrepresentation of the Torah. They want to portray the Torah like Islam (in fact they defend islam, while bash the Torah). These misguided quotes are fabrications and deliberately brainwash people away from the Torah even if subconsciously. 

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/orthodox-judaism-treats-women-like-filthy-little-things-1.404505

 The ways of the Torah are peaceful and even with wars that are commanded, the end result is wholesome peace (Shalom- Peace coming from Shalem- whole) for the nation of Israel.
 
 Him or anyone portraying Judaism as if its some religion out to oppress women is complete non-sense. Their are many, many Halachot of a man treating his women properly and his obligations (and they are many) to her. I suggest men read this book
"The Garden of Peace: A Marital Guide for Men Only (Paperback) by Rabbi Shalom Arush (Author) " , In Lashon Hakodesh, English, Russian and other languages. Available here, or most local Jewish bookstores.

http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Peace-Marital-Paperback-Shalom/dp/5495321065
http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Peace-Hebrew-Rabbi-Shalom/dp/B0030QI8OQ/ref=sr_1_18?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1325265764&sr=1-18 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.