Question for my religious friends here

[Secularbeliever]

A young man I know passed away today.  He was a very troubled young man, which had a lot to do with why he died.  He definitely engaged in evil behavior which also had a lot to do with his death.  My question is should people such as myself pray for his soul, or do we just assume that G-d will deal with him harshly and stay out of it.

[muman613]

A young man I know passed away today.  He was a very troubled young man, which had a lot to do with why he died.  He definitely engaged in evil behavior which also had a lot to do with his death.  My question is should people such as myself pray for his soul, or do we just assume that G-d will deal with him harshly and stay out of it.

If he was Jewish you should pray for his soul. It is possible that he may have repented for his transgressions. There is a famous story in the Talmud concerning Acher which I have posted here before. If you are interested I can repost it...

[muman613]

If your friend was genuinely evil he will certainly have to do time in Gehinnom. There is nothing which can be done to change this because it is a part of the entire system of reward and punishment. But if he had redeeming qualities which, if he had the desire, would cause him to repent his transgressions than maybe your intercession, by praying and saying Kaddish, may change the decree.

I am basing this mostly from what I learn from the story of Acher Ben Abuyah,

http://www.shemayisrael.com/dafyomi2/chagigah/insites/ch-dt-15.htm

http://m.chabad.org/m/article_cdo/aid/380419

http://www.aish.com/tp/i/moha/57606397.html

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Depends on what he did and the source of his evil behaviors. If out of desires etc. I think you can pray for him, if out of spitt and rebellion against G-D, on purpose and such matters than I personally would not do anything.
 Come to think of it just remembered a shiur precisely on this topic
Prayer for the Wicked

Do you have an obligation to pray for your brother who falls ill?  Is he still "your brother" if he is a rebel who violates the Torah?  There is good reason to rejoice when an evil person dies.  It's not always right to love.  Dysfunctional Jews don't know how to hate their enemy.

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/501-prayer-for-the-wicked 

[muman613]

Depends on what he did and the source of his evil behaviors. If out of desires etc. I think you can pray for him, if out of spitt and rebellion against G-D, on purpose and such matters than I personally would not do anything.
 Come to think of it just remembered a shiur precisely on this topic
Prayer for the Wicked

Do you have an obligation to pray for your brother who falls ill?  Is he still "your brother" if he is a rebel who violates the Torah?  There is good reason to rejoice when an evil person dies.  It's not always right to love.  Dysfunctional Jews don't know how to hate their enemy.

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/501-prayer-for-the-wicked 

SecularBeliever never said this man was an enemy...

[Secularbeliever]

SecularBeliever never said this man was an enemy...

The young man was not Jewish.  His evil behavior mainly involved drugs, both using and selling. He engaged in sexual behavior that was wrong by any standard including convincing his teenage girlfriend to prostitute herself.  He was supposed to enter detox today.

[Dr. Dan]

If he were alive then praying for him to turn it around is appropriate.  But praying that his punishment to not be severe is like being kind to the cruel.

Now he is dead and without being able to be a better person in life.  I think praying to ease the punishment on his soul for prostituting a teenager is also having kind feelings for cruel behavior.

Being worried for his soul is a natural tendency of a good person.  There is no harm in that.

[Secularbeliever]

I posed this question to my Israeli Orthodox Nationalist friend and my Chabad Rabbi.  My friend emailed his response.  The Rabbi and I discussed it verbally but his response was largely the same.

<<Shalom
 
I'm sorry to hear this and I hope you and your son are OK.
 
One of the principles of Judaism is that God rewards the righteous and punish the wicked, in this world and specially in the afterlife. However, we are not in the position of God to judge - meaning that this guy might had positive sides that we not aware of, but there were part of him and I'm sure God knows about them.
Another principle of Judaism is that there is option of Teshuva - repentance until the very last moment. Moreover, we assume that in the last moments every person makes Teshuva. The Rabis in the Talmud tells us that even a wicked man like king Pharaoh, just before drowning in the red sea, repentant for his evil dids.
 
I don't see any problem praying for this man. Praying for him doesn't justify his wrong doing (and trust me if he's doomed by God, your prayer won't help him much), it assumes that he had also positive sides and maybe in his last moments he repentant like Pharaoh did. Praying for him also effect you in a positive way and feeling sorry for his wasted life, connects you in in the right way life should be lived.
 
I plan to go to Shmary this shababt morning, might see you there
 
Shabat Shalom<<

[muman613]

I posed this question to my Israeli Orthodox Nationalist friend and my Chabad Rabbi.  My friend emailed his response.  The Rabbi and I discussed it verbally but his response was largely the same.

<<Shalom
 
I'm sorry to hear this and I hope you and your son are OK.
 
One of the principles of Judaism is that G-d rewards the righteous and punish the wicked, in this world and specially in the afterlife. However, we are not in the position of G-d to judge - meaning that this guy might had positive sides that we not aware of, but there were part of him and I'm sure G-d knows about them.
Another principle of Judaism is that there is option of Teshuva - repentance until the very last moment. Moreover, we assume that in the last moments every person makes Teshuva. The Rabis in the Talmud tells us that even a wicked man like king Pharaoh, just before drowning in the red sea, repentant for his evil dids.
 
I don't see any problem praying for this man. Praying for him doesn't justify his wrong doing (and trust me if he's doomed by G-d, your prayer won't help him much), it assumes that he had also positive sides and maybe in his last moments he repentant like Pharaoh did. Praying for him also effect you in a positive way and feeling sorry for his wasted life, connects you in in the right way life should be lived.
 
I plan to go to Shmary this shababt morning, might see you there
 
Shabat Shalom<<

There is an alternate story concerning Pharoah which a midrash relates... When we read the story of Jonah during Yom Kippur it is told that the King of Nineveh was none other than Pharoah himself. When Jonah arrived to announce that Hashem was warning the city to repent the king, Pharoah who was now king of Nineveh, immediately donned sackcloth and ashes and implored the entire city to repent... This is the true example of Teshuva...

http://www.torah.org/learning/perceptions/5772/vaera.html

In other words, G-d didn’t just want to show Pharaoh how powerful He could be. He wanted him to learn how powerful He can be. He wanted Pharaoh to integrate the knowledge and make it a part of his consciousness, so that when all was said and done, and the Jewish people finally left Egypt, the message of G-d’s greatness would remain with him.

As to why, that may have more to do with another story, one that we usually do not connect to the story of Yetzias Mitzrayim.

Then the word of G-d came to Yonah a second time: “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”

Yonah obeyed the word of G-d and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it. Yonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.” The people of Nineveh believed G-d. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

When Yonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh: “By the decree of the king and his nobles: Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on G-d. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. Who knows? G-d may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

When G-d saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction He had threatened. (Yonah 3:1-9)

That was quite a reaction for a city on the brink of destruction after having earned Divine wrath for its immoral behavior. Usually cities so far down that path don’t even believe in G-d, let along take threats in His Name seriously. And yet, not only did the people instantly do teshuvah, the king of Nineveh even humbled himself and donned sackcloth and sat in the dust. What was his story?

It turns out that after Pharaoh watched the last and the best of his troops perish in the sea, he knew he couldn’t return home. What was there to return home to? So he didn’t, heading east instead, to Mesopotamia, and the great city of Nineveh, where he eventually became king.

That is why when Yonah came through the city and proclaimed in the Name of G-d that their end was near unless they did teshuvah, he believed him. It wasn’t worth the risk, because the last time he stood up to G-d he lost everything but his life. This time Pharaoh, a.k.a. King of Nineveh, took nothing for granted, and took the prophet of G-d at his word, and called for national teshuvah.
.
.
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http://www.chabad.org/holidays/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/666853/jewish/Did-Pharaoh-die-in-the-Red-Sea.htm

Question:

Did Pharaoh accompany his army when they went after the Israelites? If so, did he die with them?

Answer:

We read in Exodus 14 that Pharaoh personally led his army against the Jews.

There are differing opinions in the Midrash1 concerning his fate. Some say that he drowned in the Red Sea together with his army, while others opine that he survived the miraculous event. He survived in order to retell a firsthand account of the miracles and wonders that G‑d performed.

According to one Midrash,2 he made his way to Nineveh, Assyria, where he became king—the same king who when hearing the prophet Jonah's message from G‑d foretelling Nineveh's destruction, encouraged all his subjects to repent in order to avert the divine decree. Apparently he had learned his lesson.

Wishing you a happy and kosher Passover!

Yours truly,

Rabbi Menachem Posner

PS: What your Rabbi friend said is basically what I was trying to say in my initial response...

http://www.jewishanswers.org/ask-the-rabbi-category/jewish-texts/?p=2683

[Zelhar]

I think the chabad rabbi gave you a very reasonable answer.

[Dr. Dan]

This person was your son?

[Secularbeliever]

This person was your son?

Thankfully no.  He was a friend of my son.  His parents are very nice people who have been tearing their hair out for years over their son.  When I think of their feelings and how this must have hit them it just breaks my heart. 

[Dr. Dan]

Thankfully no.  He was a friend of my son.  His parents are very nice people who have been tearing their hair out for years over their son.  When I think of their feelings and how this must have hit them it just breaks my heart. 

If it were someone's child, they would know him better since they raised him..and at that point it simply depends on how they loved him and perhaps, went wrong.  Irregardless, their child had free will and I can completely understand if somebody wished to pray to Gd to not necessarily have mercy, but to help show the goodness of one's soul to lessen the decree of the punishment of that soul. I think that is what Kaddish is for.

[Secularbeliever]

If it were someone's child, they would know him better since they raised him..and at that point it simply depends on how they loved him and perhaps, went wrong.  <<

I think that is a misconception that if a child goes wrong it is the parents fault.  Kids come with their own personalities and mindsets and sometimes despite all the good efforts and right things kids turn out bad.  I have a cousin with two great children and one who is a total mess.  In this kid's case he has a younger brother who is doing very well and in fact this kid was doing well (he was a star tennis player) until he was sixteen.  On the bright side sometimes the most screwed up parents turn out very good kids.

[Zelhar]

Also I think drug addiction can take away some of the free will and sense of judgment of a man.

[Dr. Dan]

Also I think drug addiction can take away some of the free will and sense of judgment of a man.

But the choice to take the drug in the first place for the first time, does take free will.  Therefore, the person would still be responsible for his actions for not taking into the account those consequences.

[Secularbeliever]

But the choice to take the drug in the first place for the first time, does take free will.  Therefore, the person would still be responsible for his actions for not taking into the account those consequences.

That is why it is so important to keep drugs out of the hands of kids.  They think it is a joke until they end up in jail, in a graveyard, or as long term failures in life.  They don't understand the consequences.