JTF thoughts on secular Muslims

[angryChineseKahanist]

Don't they usually end up dead?

[briann]

You need to change the thread name.  This should be... JTF thoughts on former Muslims (Apostates).  In this case, Former Muslims or former nazis have to DENOUNCE the ideology altogether.  Even then, we have to be skeptical, because Islam allows for lying.... but if apostates prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they truly denounce and condemn the ideology, then I applaud them.

[Zelhar]

Rubystars keep in mind that there are 1.5 billion Muslims.  Out of such a large population you will find almost every imaginable situation.  A Dutch woman I spoke with in Israel this past summer told me that the immigrant Muslims in Holland have children who are not religious.  They don't feel that they are part of the larger Dutch community so they associate with each other, collect welfare, commit crimes etc but don't really practice their religion.  In the case of my friend from Iraq, I have no doubt as to his sincerity.  He is more interested in being successful and having a happy life than he is in Islam.

There is a very strong correlation between Islam and inability to integrate in non-muslim society. The Dutch lady probably doesn't understand Islam and muslim society so she think muslims who don't wear the traditional clothes and grow beard must be secular. But she is dead wrong. The Iraqi man you know seems practically an x-muslim if he let his children be raised catholic (and I hope kept away from muslim nazi relatives if they have any). Which is also strongly correlates to his successful integration.

[Lisa]

Speaking as an American born daughter of Iranian Jews, my relatives always refer to Muslim terrorists as "Arabs." 

As a child, my mother used to tell me how Iran had an advanced culture, but that the invading Arabs destroyed everything.  Another relative once told me that the Islamic revolution of 1979 (?) was basically a second Arab invasion. 

[Dr. Dan]

Speaking as an American born daughter of Iranian Jews, my relatives always refer to Muslim terrorists as "Arabs." 

As a child, my mother used to tell me how Iran had an advanced culture, but that the invading Arabs destroyed everything.  Another relative once told me that the Islamic revolution of 1979 (?) was basically a second Arab invasion. 

I get the same story from my parents as well.

[Rubystars]

You need to change the thread name.  This should be... JTF thoughts on former Muslims (Apostates).  In this case, Former Muslims or former nazis have to DENOUNCE the ideology altogether.  Even then, we have to be skeptical, because Islam allows for lying.... but if apostates prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they truly denounce and condemn the ideology, then I applaud them.

Yes these people are doing the right thing by choosing to leave the death cult behind them.

[Secularbeliever]

Exactly...

There are a number of Muslims who simply are somewhere in the middle or simply do not practice Islam.  I'm not saying I would trust them with my life, but not all Muslims are Al-queda.  However, the majority of Muslims, in my opinion are religious and believe in imposing Shariah law on all non Muslims.  The secular ones do not.

I want to make one other point.  Just because a Muslim might be secular doesn't mean he can't be a Jew-hater.  Look at Iraq, which was a "secular" nation under Saddam Hussein. And look at Saudi Arabia a religious nation.  They are no different in reality.    Anti-semitism doesn't have to come with religion.

Dr. Dan, I don't know how old you are but in 1967 Egypt was led by a secular pan Arab nationalist named Nasser, who was one of the most feared and dangerous enemies Israel had.  The six day war was a preemptiive strike against Nasser's attempt to destroy Israel and throw the Jews into the sea.  My Israeli relatives showed me cartoons from the Egyptian Press at the time with cartoons with blood curdling threats and predictions.  Secular pan Arab nationalism was all the rage in the Arab world at the time.  Qadaffi was a disciple of Nasser, Syria was a secular nation as was Iraq, as you noted.

The most vicious terrorist group at the time, the PFLP, was Communist in its orientation and led by a Christian Arab.  Your point that secular Arabs are not necessarily peaceful Arabs is very well taken.

[Rubystars]

Rubystars keep in mind that there are 1.5 billion Muslims.  Out of such a large population you will find almost every imaginable situation.  A Dutch woman I spoke with in Israel this past summer told me that the immigrant Muslims in Holland have children who are not religious.  They don't feel that they are part of the larger Dutch community so they associate with each other, collect welfare, commit crimes etc but don't really practice their religion.  In the case of my friend from Iraq, I have no doubt as to his sincerity.  He is more interested in being successful and having a happy life than he is in Islam.

If he's not interested in Islam he should take that final step and renounce it and no longer self-identify as a Muslim.

The Qu'ran teaches hatred against Jews especially but also Christians and any other non-Muslims. As long as someone self-identifies as "Muslim", even if they don't have a strong belief in it or practice it, they are basically saying those teachings are Ok and they are not offended by them. Level of observance doesn't really matter. They still consider themselves part of that larger philosophy even if they don't actively practice it, until they reject Muslim as a self-identifier they are passively supporting the hatred of non-Muslims by making Islam seem like a legitimate option.

[Secularbeliever]

If he's not interested in Islam he should take that final step and renounce it and no longer self-identify as a Muslim.

The Qu'ran teaches hatred against Jews especially but also Christians and any other non-Muslims. As long as someone self-identifies as "Muslim", even if they don't have a strong belief in it or practice it, they are basically saying those teachings are Ok and they are not offended by them. Level of observance doesn't really matter. They still consider themselves part of that larger philosophy even if they don't actively practice it, until they reject Muslim as a self-identifier they are passively supporting the hatred of non-Muslims by making Islam seem like a legitimate option.

He does still identify as a Muslim, although obviously, it does not dominate his life.  During the Iraq War he referred to Saddam as "that SOB" and was heart sick after 911.  Someone we both knew (A Jewish investment banker) was killed at the World Trade Center and he actually knew him much better than me and was very affected by it.

He can find positive aspects to Islam, and if you look hard enough you can find them.  I have no problem with his attitude.  When I told him I was going to Israel he said that was great and would like to go himself sometime with his wife.  The point is that as far as I am concerned, he can keep his limited self identification with Islam as long as he does it within the context of opposing terrorism and subjugating other people.

[Rational Jew]

There are no secular muslims. Every muslim I've met in my life was a vicious, barbaric, nazi piece of excrement. I've met muslims of different sorts: tatar, chechen, ingush, karachay, arab etc. None of them was a 'secular'. They all were racists and thought of every non-muslim as a 'subhuman'. Believe me!

A Tatar Muslim turned all my friends against me when I was in Junior High School. Another Tatar Muslim was a nazi sympathiser who used to sing a nazi song calling for the genocide against Jews.

A group of Arab Muslims have been spreading lies about me when I was in high school. They were fighting with me when I was outnumbered 1 to 3.

I do not even want to mention my experiences with north caucasians. Everytime they were talking to me, they were referring to slav women as 'whores' and said all slavs are pigs.

Arab Muslims were the worst. If there are some muslims who claim to be 'secular', it is called tagiyya.

[The Noachide]

Sorry to hear your story. SayNo2islam.

[Rubystars]

He does still identify as a Muslim, although obviously, it does not dominate his life.  During the Iraq War he referred to Saddam as "that SOB" and was heart sick after 911.  Someone we both knew (A Jewish investment banker) was killed at the World Trade Center and he actually knew him much better than me and was very affected by it.

He needs to renounce Islam if he doesn't agree with it. Why is that so hard? If you don't believe in something and don't agree with it why keep the title?

He can find positive aspects to Islam, and if you look hard enough you can find them.

Anything positive in Islam was stolen from Jews and Christians. It's main philosophy is one of hatred and violence.

I have no problem with his attitude.  When I told him I was going to Israel he said that was great and would like to go himself sometime with his wife.

Israel should not allow Muslim tourism and should do something as soon as possible about expelling the Muslims who live there.

The point is that as far as I am concerned, he can keep his limited self identification with Islam as long as he does it within the context of opposing terrorism and subjugating other people.

By keeping his self-identification with Islam, he is passively supporting their evil. He's telling you "Deep down, I'm one of them" because he refuses to renounce it.

[TruthSpreader]

If a Muslim is "secular" then he really isn't Muslim.

[Rubystars]

If a Muslim is "secular" then he really isn't Muslim.

It's important that he takes the final step and no longer self-identifies as Muslim or he still must be considered to be in sympathy with the jihadists.

[TruthSpreader]

It's important that he takes the final step and no longer self-identifies as Muslim or he still must be considered to be in sympathy with the jihadists.

What about the Muslims in former Soviet states such as Kazakhstan and Krgzystan?

[Rational Jew]

I remember Craig Winn and Chaim discussing the issue of secular Muslims. These secular muslims are considered to be "bad muslims" according to Koran. The good muslims, on the other side, are the ones who blow up things and want to extwerminate every non-muslim.

[Rubystars]

What about the Muslims in former Soviet states such as Kazakhstan and Krgzystan?

You can't know what they really think until they are out of Muslim-controlled areas and in an environment where it's safer to speak their mind. If they believe in Islam or self-identify as Muslim I will not trust them. If an individual is in a country where there is a reasonable amount of freedom of religion, they should clearly reject Islam.

[TruthSpreader]

You can't know what they really think until they are out of Muslim-controlled areas and in an environment where it's safer to speak their mind. If they believe in Islam or self-identify as Muslim I will not trust them. If an individual is in a country where there is a reasonable amount of freedom of religion, they should clearly reject Islam.

I would expect that  in more secular countries like the former Soviet republics, the Muslims don't take Islam as seriously as they do in Saudi Arabia and Iran. But yes, I agree they should reject Islam.

[Dr. Dan]

Dr. Dan, I don't know how old you are but in 1967 Egypt was led by a secular pan Arab nationalist named Nasser, who was one of the most feared and dangerous enemies Israel had.  The six day war was a preemptiive strike against Nasser's attempt to destroy Israel and throw the Jews into the sea.  My Israeli relatives showed me cartoons from the Egyptian Press at the time with cartoons with blood curdling threats and predictions.  Secular pan Arab nationalism was all the rage in the Arab world at the time.  Qadaffi was a disciple of Nasser, Syria was a secular nation as was Iraq, as you noted.

The most vicious terrorist group at the time, the PFLP, was Communist in its orientation and led by a Christian Arab.  Your point that secular Arabs are not necessarily peaceful Arabs is very well taken.

I'm only 34, but am well familiar that by "secular" muslim that doesn't necessarily mean not Jew-hater either.  Same goes with the Turks.

When I think of true secular Muslims I mean the ones who were born into a Muslim family but do not identify with Islam in any way.  Or for that matter, the ones who happen to identify with Islam, but in a superficial way in the sense that they pray to Gd and follow Hallal, but are not political and just live their lives...There are some in that category who are not Jew haters like Al queda type Jew haters..many of them will not know any better about history..and I definitely would not trust my life with those types of Muslims anyway.

[Dr. Dan]

There are no secular muslims. Every muslim I've met in my life was a vicious, barbaric, nazi piece of excrement. I've met muslims of different sorts: tatar, chechen, ingush, karachay, arab etc. None of them was a 'secular'. They all were racists and thought of every non-muslim as a 'subhuman'. Believe me!

A Tatar Muslim turned all my friends against me when I was in Junior High School. Another Tatar Muslim was a nazi sympathiser who used to sing a nazi song calling for the genocide against Jews.

A group of Arab Muslims have been spreading lies about me when I was in high school. They were fighting with me when I was outnumbered 1 to 3.

I do not even want to mention my experiences with north caucasians. Everytime they were talking to me, they were referring to slav women as 'whores' and said all slavs are pigs.

Arab Muslims were the worst. If there are some muslims who claim to be 'secular', it is called tagiyya.

I notice that muslims new to the US that the majority are definitely Jew haters even if they are "secular".

[The One and Only Mo]

Touchy subject. A lot of them actually work in Jewish hospitals in the Holy Land. I believe there are some out there that are not frum Muslims...similar to the self-hating Jews who try to kill their own people.

[Rubystars]

This is no such thing as a moderate Muslim or moderate Islam. The Qu'ran is pure evil and if they identify with that in any way they are guilty regardless of their perceived level of observance.

[The Noachide]

This is no such thing as a moderate Muslim or moderate Islam. The Qu'ran is pure evil and if they identify with that in any way they are guilty regardless of their perceived level of observance.

Can you come to New york city and convince that to the Indonesian neighbors?  I will give you a medal and a prize.
It is scary because Indonesians make up the world's largest muslim nation as it historically was a Hindu nation. I tried to reason with one of them, I told them it's filled with many errors, contradicts archaeology findings, they follow a false prophet, and it is a waste of humanity's time.
In fact, one of them messaged me the other day on facebook about this issue, but she really likes me. XD

[Dr. Dan]

In what way does she really like you

[Rubystars]

Can you come to New york city and convince that to the Indonesian neighbors?  I will give you a medal and a prize.
It is scary because Indonesians make up the world's largest muslim nation as it historically was a Hindu nation. I tried to reason with one of them, I told them it's filled with many errors, contradicts archaeology findings, they follow a false prophet, and it is a waste of humanity's time.
In fact, one of them messaged me the other day on facebook about this issue, but she really likes me. XD

I think you should ask them if they know the kinds of atrocities Mohammed committed and whether or not they agree with them. You should also ask them if in the end times if rocks and trees will betray Jews hiding behind them and call for the faithful Muslims to kill them. Also ask them if the men are going to enjoy the "pearls" for their pleasure in the afterlife, or if they consider that ok along with Mohammed's own pedophilia with Aisha.