Author Topic: Shalom  (Read 9032 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #25 on: April 12, 2012, 10:20:12 PM »
So, how do you feel about Zionist Christians, who consider themselves to be "the real Christians" also? Are we just naive and misguided and fake Christians because we aren't anti-Semites?
Brennanfan,

I already answered this question. I have no problem with what others believe so long as they are not a threat to the Jewish people.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2012, 10:29:49 PM »
This was a good article. This stuff needs to be talked about.

Offline nessuno

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2012, 10:43:24 PM »
And people wonder why I am not so happy with Christianity... I know people will claim that these are not 'real Christians' but Im sure that they consider themselves to be as real as can be. These churches are jealous of the Jewish people and had hoped they we would have been wiped out in the Holocaust. But the fact that we are alive makes them livid. These so-called Christians are a blight on the world and they are preventing the world from the blessings which Hashem will bestow with the coming of Moshiach. Their belief in a false G-d and a false messiah makes them just as bad as idol worshippers.
What do sick people like this have to do with all of Christianity?  They certainly don't reflect my beliefs and I wouldn't make excuses for them.
Their belief in a false G-d and a false messiah makes them just as bad as idol worshippers.
What does this mean?  I don't think I misunderstood what I read.  That applies to all Christians.  I don't disagree with someone holding this belief.  I don't want people to go against their beliefs.  I just think we could try to be a bit more diplomatic with each other.  Especially if we are trying to attract new members to support Israel and restore America.  Sorry, if that makes me irrational.

Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline muman613

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2012, 10:46:37 PM »
And people wonder why I am not so happy with Christianity... I know people will claim that these are not 'real Christians' but Im sure that they consider themselves to be as real as can be. These churches are jealous of the Jewish people and had hoped they we would have been wiped out in the Holocaust. But the fact that we are alive makes them livid. These so-called Christians are a blight on the world and they are preventing the world from the blessings which Hashem will bestow with the coming of Moshiach. Their belief in a false G-d and a false messiah makes them just as bad as idol worshippers.
What do sick people like this have to do with all of Christianity?  They certainly don't reflect my beliefs and I wouldn't make excuses for them.
Their belief in a false G-d and a false messiah makes them just as bad as idol worshippers.
What does this mean?  I don't think I misunderstood what I read.  That applies to all Christians.  I don't disagree with someone holding this belief.  I don't want people to go against their beliefs.  I just think we could try to be a bit more diplomatic with each other.  Especially if we are trying to attract new members to support Israel and restore America.  Sorry, if that makes me irrational.

Not true...Their refers to those who hate the Jewish people. Their religion is a false one, and those who follow it are doomed like those who worship idols... I suspect you mis-parsed what was written.

I don't truly know what is believed by 'all' Christians but what I garner is that G-d created us all, and he wants us to love him... Of course I agree with this.. There are things I disagree with theologically but I don't make it an issue. I let people believe what they want to... Unless of course their beliefs involved destroying the Jewish people.


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These churches refers to churches which teach replacement theology or that Jews are guilty of deicide.. These so-called Christians again refers to those who call themselves Christians while simultaneously expressing hate for Jews, Judaism, and all which is Holy to G_d... Their belief refers to those beliefs I just enumerated

I suspect the previous sentence which suggests that these Christians actually consider their beliefs to be genuine may be mis-interpreted. I was just making a comment that often those Jew hating Christians will assert that their belief is the true 'gospel' of their messiah.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ulli

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #29 on: April 13, 2012, 02:20:35 AM »
I think this is basically a political conference. They use the religious terms, in that they didn't believe for their political goals. They want to appear "progressive". It is the same as with the Al Sharpton and Manning Christians as well as the leftist anti Lubawitch Jews like Micha Brumlik or the Tikun Olam fraktion.

In a few years is this phenomenon finished, we have only to wait. I highly doubt, that they get enough young people in order to balance their demographic issue.  ;D
"Cities run by progressives don't know how to police. ... Thirty cities went up last night, I went and looked at every one of them. Every one of them has a progressive Democratic mayor." Rudolph Giuliani

Offline Yaakov Mendel

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #30 on: April 13, 2012, 05:33:01 AM »

There's bound to be some bitter feelings between Christians and Jews when our minds are focused on the past and, I should say, on religion. On the one hand, it is very understandable that Jews should feel resentful because of the persecutions they have endured in the name of Christianity. On the other hand, honest Jews should understand that some Christians might feel upset by the numerous anti-Christian and, more generally, anti-Gentile statements in the Talmud and by the contempt felt by a number of Jews toward non-Jews.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #31 on: April 13, 2012, 05:52:30 AM »
When we are faced with a group that uses theological argument to justify extermination of our people I think we have the right to refute their so called theology.

Offline nessuno

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #32 on: April 13, 2012, 06:54:52 AM »
Muman, I didn't have a problem with your original post, I also think that this article should wake up more non-Jews to what Israeli Jews deal with so they won't be quite as surprised if they see anti-Christianity coming from some settlers.

Bullcat, I don't think Muman originally intended an attack on you or Christians as a group.

The problem is when things get personal and the line is crossed between debate and fighting, so if you have a point to make try to make it in a roundabout way so it's not directed against an individual.  That is especially true for controversial threads like this one which is why we need to watch when we get into red light territory.
I'm sorry, Dan.  Making that type of point in a roundabout way is like making a derogatory statement in a roundabout way.  I have no problem with the article you posted.  You are right about shedding light on antisemetic groups.  I have a problem with all Christian groups being lumped together and in a roundabout way it was a personal attack.
Be very CAREFUL of people whose WORDS don't match their ACTIONS.

Offline mord

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #33 on: April 13, 2012, 07:00:18 AM »
These people are fake Fundamentalist probably a large amount that clown around with Jim Wallis's sojourners they are an embarrassment to real Fundamentalists.They are what Mickey Lerner is to Judaism libs taking on a religious name in order to give them credence
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Rubystars

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2012, 08:02:43 AM »
Rubystars... You have always been a voice of reason. Did you take my comment as an attack on all Christians. I was very clear to specify those who I have disdain for.

Sometimes when you do clarify now it can come off as disengenuous (even if you don't mean it that way) considering some of the posts you've made in the past which seemed to blanketly attack all Christians even if you're not doing so now.

You have moderated your posting style in the past several months most of the time so I have to give you credit for that much. You're not as openly hostile as some other posters have been but sometimes it does seem passive-aggressive.

Some of this may come from legitimate irritation at the actual "Christian" anti-Semites such as those listed in the article which make Christians seem evil. Just remember that there is more to the story than just them. Dan ben Noah makes a good point in that he should be able to post articles like this one to expose anti-Semites of all kinds but I think it can be a very touchy issue because some of the members including you sometimes seem to lump us all together and that is hurtful.

I think we want to be able to feel as if we're welcomed here because we're here to help as much as we can in a forum format, and it's not as if we found a Jewish forum and just pushed our way in, which really would have been rude and disrespectful if we had, but we were actually invited here. That's an important distinction that I think should be made and it really makes all the difference IMHO.

It was one of my Jewish friends on Pal Talk that suggested I join this forum and when I got here Chaim was making it clear that people of different religions were welcome here as long as we're not anti-Semitic. He's always been welcoming to us and understanding of the fact that while there are major differences, we can still work together in respect.

Remember that we're choosing to go against the majority of the world to side with Israel and the Jewish people against their enemies and one of the ways we do this is through JTF. We take quite a bit of flack for it as so many people hate Israel now and take any chance to bash it and to bash anyone who is pro-Israel. You probably don't even want to know some of the things I've been called for being part of this forum. I'm not trying to sound like a martyr here but hopefully you know what I mean. We're already getting this from JTF's enemies and so I think it makes it more difficult when we feel like our fellow JTFers have the same low opinion of us.

 
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I am surprised BC is attacking me instead of addressing the vile drek which these animals are spouting in the name of your religion. Will you speak out against it?

The fact that we're all against the anti-Semites in the article is a given so even if someone doesn't specifically condemn them that doesn't mean they support them. I think what the Christians on the forum are concerned about is that we don't want to be lumped in with that "vile drek" because those kinds of people disgust us too.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #35 on: April 13, 2012, 09:49:46 AM »
I notice that my question was never answered. Obviously nobody here is going to be against Zionist Christians, but do you feel that we are fake Christians or heretical Christians?

Offline mord

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #36 on: April 13, 2012, 10:08:20 AM »
I notice that my question was never answered. Obviously nobody here is going to be against Zionist Christians, but do you feel that we are fake Christians or heretical Christians?
No meant this libs who organized to try to counter Christian Zionists.People like obama husseins dear friend Jim Wallis who also happens to be a dear friend of mickey 'boy' lerner
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #37 on: April 13, 2012, 10:49:18 AM »
I notice that my question was never answered. Obviously nobody here is going to be against Zionist Christians, but do you feel that we are fake Christians or heretical Christians?
I don't think you are fake since I think you sincerely believe in Jesus and the New Testament. But then again there are still other authentic Christian groups that hate Jews. I don't think they are fake either. The ones who are faking are groups and individuals that are atheists or satanists or whatever but they use Christian rhetoric, like Al Sharpton and "reverend" Wright for example, and also so called pro LGBT and pro abortion churches.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #38 on: April 13, 2012, 11:42:03 AM »
These people are fake Fundamentalist probably a large amount that clown around with Jim Wallis's sojourners they are an embarrassment to real Fundamentalists.They are what Mickey Lerner is to Judaism libs taking on a religious name in order to give them credence
Good point. These are self-hating Christians.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2012, 11:42:57 AM »
I don't think you are fake since I think you sincerely believe in Jesus and the New Testament. But then again there are still other authentic Christian groups that hate Jews. I don't think they are fake either. The ones who are faking are groups and individuals that are atheists or satanists or whatever but they use Christian rhetoric, like Al Sharpton and "reverend" Wright for example, and also so called pro LGBT and pro abortion churches.
This question wasn't directed at you, but thank you.

Offline briann

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2012, 12:00:32 PM »
This topic seems a bit divisive. 

While there are certainly Christian groups that hate Jews, they are not a majority, and many are groups that gentiles themselves hate.  Such as Black liberation theology, etc.

However, a HUGE majority of white American Gentiles... INCLUDING many white american catholics do support Israel.  Check out groups such as http://www.facebook.com/ChristiansUnitedforIsrael etc.   Also, if you look at christian and conservative groups, the Israeli flag is by far the most represented flag (after the USA flag) for member profile pics.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2012, 12:37:00 PM »
I'm glad that I got to see some of these news stories because when someone first told me they'd encountered Christian anti-Semitism I didn't believe them. That was years ago before I knew very much about the history or the situation though. All the Christians I'd ever known had been pro-Israel so I thought that just automatically went with the territory.
At the very least that should show you that there's a significant pro-Israel culture within the USA among Christians or I would never have gotten the impression that I did.

At least we can be aware that there are people out there who have very wrong views and need to be opposed. At the same time I think if someone believes that all Christians are that way then they need to be corrected just as when I thought all people who called themselves Christians were pro-Jewish I was wrong.

I heard a good program on a Christian radio station a couple of years ago which basically took apart replacement theology (the anti-Semitic philosophy that Jews are no longer important to God) and showed how flawed and wrong it was and how it's dangerous to believe in such a doctrine. I wish I could get the audio of it now or something similar because I think it would be useful to help spread the word even more that being anti-Semitic isn't a righteous thing at all.

Offline jbeige

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2012, 04:50:45 PM »
The problem is some people think their religion and beliefs are the only one and the right one, there are faults with every religion but if you  are in that religion you don't see it.
If you're Christian you have your beliefs nobody should tell you your religion is wrong and if you're Jewish or Protestant or Baptist, etc. you have your beliefs and nobody should tell you your religion is wrong.
But it is not fair and is untrue to think one religion is the top religion and that's what is wrong with the way some people on here think.
It's about respect and please don't go back 2000 years.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2012, 05:59:02 PM »
The problem is some people think their religion and beliefs are the only one and the right one, there are faults with every religion but if you  are in that religion you don't see it.
If you're Christian you have your beliefs nobody should tell you your religion is wrong and if you're Jewish or Protestant or Baptist, etc. you have your beliefs and nobody should tell you your religion is wrong.
But it is not fair and is untrue to think one religion is the top religion and that's what is wrong with the way some people on here think.
It's about respect and please don't go back 2000 years.

If you don't believe in your own religion then there's no point in having one at all. On the other hand people should respect other people's rights to believe differently in peace.

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2012, 07:11:10 PM »
^ Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if people didn't feel any obligation to respect other people's rights to practice differently in peace.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2012, 08:24:12 PM »
There are some religions in the world that are not only incorrect, but evil.  For example, Islam across the board, and this particular branch of Christianity that the Edomites in the article practice.  It's about good vs. evil, they are evil, and I will say right now that their religion is wrong.

You're very right Dan. In my post I was talking about more peaceful people.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2012, 09:00:58 PM »
I don't think anybody here denies that there are a lot of so-called anti-Semitic Christians, or thinks that bringing them to light is a bad thing. What was upsetting is that a couple people implied that the anti-Semites are the "real Christians".

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2012, 09:12:42 PM »
  I agree with DBN 100%! I'd like to add alot of religions can be used for good or evil,but G-d let's you decide. I believe if we live and follow the Torah we will be just fine. Except of course for the people of the false prophet mohammed. Who have lucifer running through their veins.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2012, 09:25:42 PM »
I don't think anybody here denies that there are a lot of so-called anti-Semitic Christians, or thinks that bringing them to light is a bad thing. What was upsetting is that a couple people implied that the anti-Semites are the "real Christians".
BF I have had talks with Muman multiple times about Christians beings my wife and kids are. And he has had nothing but encouraging words. And has never once told me to try to change their beliefs.
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

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Re: "Christ at the Checkpoint" roundup: Jews are G-d's enemy
« Reply #49 on: April 14, 2012, 06:32:37 AM »
BF I have had talks with Muman multiple times about Christians beings my wife and kids are. And he has had nothing but encouraging words. And has never once told me to try to change their beliefs.
Recalling his past posts on issues like that I almost find that surprising... Anyway as I further recall he is well versed in situations like that so he may be speaking from personal experience.
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