Author Topic: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!  (Read 3560 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« on: May 25, 2012, 05:15:15 PM »
So I want to ban contraception.

Mastermeerkat disagrees heavily.

I argue that artificial contraception (i.e., sterilization, condoms, and birth control pills) is in fact is the root of immorality today. It broke up the family. It literally has caused many divorces, many STD infections (through condoms not actually working to prevent viral STDs), and ironically many unexpected pregnancies through birth control pills not being 100% effective (i.e., not being complete sterilizations) when people think that they are sterilizations.

I am AGNOSTIC, not a Fundamentalist Christian as you may think.

Contraception is the root of abortion. Abortion is just when your contraception fails and you kill the child. Contraception IS abortion, in that abortion and contraception are both ways of preventing the birth of the child artificially.

This is NOT a health issue. Mental, sociological, and physical health is in fact deteriorated by contraception and the immorality that it promotes.

What does JTF think?

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2012, 06:30:26 PM »
I hope that one day it may be so... But today it is not possible. What is needed is to change peoples perception of sexual relations, from being a cool thing to do when you have time to waste, to an intimate relationship with ones soulmate. That sex is intended for procreation and not pleasure....

But I sound like a lunatic when I say that in todays sex-crazed atmosphere.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2012, 07:08:37 PM »
I think the real problem is intimate relations outside of marriage where marriage is a lifetime monogamous relationship between a man and a woman. Marital contraception is often necessary as many married women have careers and stuff and must strategically time when the children are to come. As for people who make the immoral choice to have extramarital relations, encouraging them to use contraception is the moral thing to do as no child deserves to be born to parents who have chosen an immoral lifestyle.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2012, 08:11:07 PM »
So you want to ban contraception between those who are married as well?  Every married couple should abstain so they don't have more kids than they handle or afford.  Well I suppose withdrawal will do the job.  The sin of onan. 

And a newly married couple where the wife needs to time her mikveh for the

 wedding and cannot be in niddah.  So no pill there either?

Gd did not create the garden of Eden without the tree of life and tree of knowledge. It was there to show us we can exercise free will.  For the unmarried,they need to be taught self control.  Not make condoms and other contraception illegal. 

I'm ready for a debate on this issue.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2012, 08:22:55 PM »
Unmarried people should not have sex at all and married people should be able to control how many children they have. Besides, I think rather than reducing abortions that if contraception were not available that people would have MORE abortions. Plus if a woman gets raped then emergency contraception can prevent a pregnancy.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2012, 08:24:23 PM »
Oh and another thing, contraception is abortion? So when ever a 12 year old has her period, she's wasting a child?  And a husband who is allowed and required to pleasue his wife is committing fetal murder if non of his sperm fertilizes her egg?
And will give an excuse for a man to rape is wife so not to commit an abortion with his sperm?  I'm sorry that sounds very Islamic to me.

Sperm and eggs do not hold the same weight to a fetus it fertilized egg.  Your suggestion us extremist and has no place on any logical and righteous movement.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2012, 08:51:12 PM »
I hope that one day it may be so... But today it is not possible. What is needed is to change peoples perception of sexual relations, from being a cool thing to do when you have time to waste, to an intimate relationship with ones soulmate. That sex is intended for procreation and not pleasure....

But I sound like a lunatic when I say that in todays sex-crazed atmosphere.
Yeah, I hate society. The majority of people think that it's a health issue. Pregnancy, of course, is not a disease.

I think the real problem is intimate relations outside of marriage where marriage is a lifetime monogamous relationship between a man and a woman. Marital contraception is often necessary as many married women have careers and stuff and must strategically time when the children are to come. As for people who make the immoral choice to have extramarital relations, encouraging them to use contraception is the moral thing to do as no child deserves to be born to parents who have chosen an immoral lifestyle.
I was born to parents who have an immoral lifestyle. Not too bad, actually, even though I hate my parents.

So you want to ban contraception between those who are married as well?  Every married couple should abstain so they don't have more kids than they handle or afford.  Well I suppose withdrawal will do the job.  The sin of onan. 

And a newly married couple where the wife needs to time her mikveh for the wedding and cannot be in niddah.  So no pill there either?

Gd did not create the garden of Eden without the tree of life and tree of knowledge. It was there to show us we can exercise free will.  For the unmarried,they need to be taught self control.  Not make condoms and other contraception illegal. 

I'm ready for a debate on this issue.
Yes. The timing method does its job very well. I'm not a Jew, I don't know these Hebrew terms! LOL.

If we banned contraception only for the unmarried, that would not go very well, since it gives married people an exemption.

Free will...nice argument. So we have the right to steal and murder? Were the Ten Commandments fake?

Unmarried people should not have sex at all and married people should be able to control how many children they have. Besides, I think rather than reducing abortions that if contraception were not available that people would have MORE abortions. Plus if a woman gets raped then emergency contraception can prevent a pregnancy.
1. Ban abortion.
2. Enforce death penalties for rape, murder, contraceptive use, abortion, etc. and prevent people who get ill with illegal "back-alley" abortions from getting care, effectively killing them.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!

Oh and another thing, contraception is abortion? So when ever a 12 year old has her period, she's wasting a child?  And a husband who is allowed and required to pleasue his wife is committing fetal murder if non of his sperm fertilizes her egg?
And will give an excuse for a man to rape is wife so not to commit an abortion with his sperm?  I'm sorry that sounds very Islamic to me.

Sperm and eggs do not hold the same weight to a fetus it fertilized egg.  Your suggestion us extremist and has no place on any logical and righteous movement.
I didn't say to ban natural means of contraception, and to justify rape to fertilize eggs. No, this is not Islamic. Islam clearly has no place in society. I'm not proposing mandated sex or anything of that nature, I am saying that artificial means of contraception should be illegal. It is not extremist, and you are simply stretching what I said.

I look forward to your replies. Nice to have a good debate every once in a while. Keeps me fresh.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 09:16:58 PM »
I disagree here..  quite a bit. 

If we are talking about adults.... I think its absurd to have the government ban something such as contraception. 

Also,  there is a large segment of the population that needs to stop procreating like rabbits....

For example, this fine young gentleman who has 30 kids:



Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2012, 09:24:25 PM »
Briann...


You just topped off my great day with a great laugh.

Thank you.

But he (along with that large segment that you're referring to) is not using any contraception.

Offline Rubystars

  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *********
  • Posts: 18307
  • Extreme MAGA Republican
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2012, 09:28:02 PM »
How do you feel about women who have hormonal problems and need to take contraceptives to even them out, like women who have terrible PMDD? Sometimes the symptoms can be really severe and can interfere with family relationships and work.

Also a death penalty for abortion should perhaps only be legal for the doctors. I don't think the women should be put to death because many of them are coerced into getting abortions. Some women are told if they don't get an abortion their boyfriends will kill them, or their parents will kick them out of the house and they'll be on the street to fend for themselves, etc.

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2012, 09:40:39 PM »
I'm not saying abortion is good. But I don't see why it should be illegal

Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2012, 09:42:27 PM »
Well, I think we should allow birth control pills with a one month duration. That is, a one month long cycle. This would both fix the problem and not be too bad (or not bad at all?) on the contraceptive front.

Well...if you're FORCED into an abortion that you really don't want...The person (or people) that forced it on you dies.

I personally would kick my children out on to the street if they had premarital sex, and leave them to fend for themselves, but I don't have children, being fifteen (soon sixteen) years of age and thus an unmarried virgin.

I would actually let the grandchild live with me, and just kick my child that had sex out, though.

BUT MY BEING CRUEL IS A WHOLE DIFFERENT STORY FROM BANNING CONTRACEPTION.

I also would allow fallopian abortions, i.e., abortions to fallopian pregnancies where the abortion is required to save the life of the mother, often where the child cannot survive anyway.

(And HateIslam, give me all possible reasons that it should be legal.)

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2012, 09:48:19 PM »
Nobody should be forced to preserve the life of another human being. Nobody should have to administer CPR or be forced to send money to help people who are starving or dying of preventable diseases. Withdrawing care is a basic right!

Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 09:52:45 PM »
Well, what about the orphanage?

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 09:55:38 PM »
^ I support them 100%. Don't get me wrong, I'm 100% pro-care, just against forced care.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2012, 10:09:17 PM »
I'm not saying abortion is good. But I don't see why it should be illegal

You don't?  You need to unlearn the leftist propoganda.

ok, how about if a mother has a premature baby at 7 months, and shortly after the baby is born, the mom decides the baby would be a burden to society, and strangles the baby.

Do you see why maybe her action should be illegal/criminal?

Now, what if a mom has an abortion of her baby in the 7th month for the exact reason.

Do you see why maybe her action should be illegal/criminal?

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2012, 10:17:33 PM »
You don't?  You need to unlearn the leftist propoganda.

ok, how about if a mother has a premature baby at 7 months, and shortly after the baby is born, the mom decides the baby would be a burden to society, and strangles the baby.

Do you see why maybe her action should be illegal/criminal?

Now, what if a mom has an abortion of her baby in the 7th month for the exact reason.

Do you see why maybe her action should be illegal/criminal?

Ok, great point. All I support is the woman's right to remove the fetus from her body at any time she wants. No action should be taken to end the life of the fetus. That would be murder. Either it will survive if it is mature enough and somebody cares for it, or it will die on its own. Yes, I admit that abortion as it is almost always performed, is murder.

Offline Reaganukics

  • Junior JTFer
  • **
  • Posts: 30
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2012, 10:25:22 PM »
Um...

Removing the fetus when it's too young to survive is effectively abortion.

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2012, 10:32:49 PM »
Yeah, I hate society. The majority of people think that it's a health issue. Pregnancy, of course, is not a disease.
I was born to parents who have an immoral lifestyle. Not too bad, actually, even though I hate my parents.
Yes. The timing method does its job very well. I'm not a Jew, I don't know these Hebrew terms! LOL.

If we banned contraception only for the unmarried, that would not go very well, since it gives married people an exemption.

Free will...nice argument. So we have the right to steal and murder? Were the Ten Commandments fake?
1. Ban abortion.
2. Enforce death penalties for rape, murder, contraceptive use, abortion, etc. and prevent people who get ill with illegal "back-alley" abortions from getting care, effectively killing them.
3. ???
4. PROFIT!
I didn't say to ban natural means of contraception, and to justify rape to fertilize eggs. No, this is not Islamic. Islam clearly has no place in society. I'm not proposing mandated sex or anything of that nature, I am saying that artificial means of contraception should be illegal. It is not extremist, and you are simply stretching what I said.

I look forward to your replies. Nice to have a good debate every once in a while. Keeps me fresh.

In Jewish marraige, sex isn't just for procreation.  It is a wife's right to receive pleasure.  Therefore sex between husband and wife can include certain types of contraception.

Secondly, a Jewish woman is not supposed to consummate marriage when she is going through her period or Niddah.  She would need to sometimes take the pill for proper timing.

Thirdly, timing isn't everything. It's not simple in many women.  My wife got pregnant when we weren't timing and wouldn't get pregnant when we were timing. 

Fourthly, onen was one of Judah's sons.  He would withdraw everytime his wife wanted him to make kids.  Gd punished him with death for spilling his seed or masturbating.  It may seem that this would make your argument.  However if a husband and wife to stay in accordance to Torah law but dont want another child yet, and timing isn't full proof (and if you were married and older and more mature) you would understand how wrong your point of view is), the wife would have to use the pill.

Fifthly, for a woman to give birth consecutive years is not healthy for her.

Sixthly, the use of contraception is not abortion.  That is an insane remark that would only be valid to extreme nutjobs who have no experience in real life.  This is a view a deprived man would feel so that he doesn't feel bad about himself not being able to find a girlfriend, but nevermind that.

As far as the story of Adam and eve and free will.  I have free will to murder or steal.  But I know its wrong. So I choose the opposite.  I know sex outside of marriage is wrong so I find my soulmate and marry her.  I teach my children to do the right thing. I limit the tv shows they can watch I make sure they have the right friends.  At that point they have the education to make proper decisions. They have free will too.

Truthfully, this thought of yours is one of a result of depravity and not morality imo
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2012, 10:41:32 PM »
Um...

Removing the fetus when it's too young to survive is effectively abortion.

I would plead with anyone considering taking a fetus out of their body to reconsider. I would celebrate if they reconsidered and chose life.

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2012, 10:43:37 PM »
Ok, great point. All I support is the woman's right to remove the fetus from her body at any time she wants. No action should be taken to end the life of the fetus. That would be murder. Either it will survive if it is mature enough and somebody cares for it, or it will die on its own.

That's kiinda disturbing, and I still think you are missing the point here. There are some babies who need special care LONG after they are born to survive. 

Should parents be allowed to let them die since their organs/bodily systems haven't developed properly?

What if a mother knowingly allowed her 10 year old with developmental problems to die?

Offline USAReturn2GodNow1776

  • Pro JTFer
  • *****
  • Posts: 764
  • proud christian & kahanist
    • the urban grind
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2012, 10:50:49 PM »
That's kiinda disturbing, and I still think you are missing the point here. There are some babies who need special care LONG after they are born to survive. 

Should parents be allowed to let them die since their organs/bodily systems haven't developed properly?


Yes, but somebody is gonna step in and save the child. I know I would.

Quote
What if a mother knowingly allowed her 10 year old with developmental problems to die?

Did she hide the child away to prevent anyone else from discovering and caring for the child? If so, then she murdered the child by inflicting a condition where nobody else could intervene and save the child.  If the mother did not hide the child away from potential rescuers, then somebody is going to rescue and care for the child. I would.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2012, 11:02:28 PM »
There are machines that will keep very young fetuses alive, and until you've watched a video of an abortion, you don't understand that it doesn't compare to anything in terms of cruelty. 

Your premise for the abolition of contraception is misguided, but fundamentally correct. Your method is not. Ban it, and every Chinese businessman will jump on a boat-load of condoms and bring it here.

It was brought up that pre-marital sex is the only problematic area in terms of contraceptive use. You therefore propose we tyrannize the youth even more, and give them death for following the path we've carved to rebellion. Not very insightful, buddy.

The way to change this problem is to change the society, and the way to do that is the slow process of changing others, and the quickest way to do that is to change yourself. Promote the right way, be a loving person and show others your boundaries, and you will make a difference, although you will never succeed completely for any society until the messiah comes. Also, you have absolutely no chance of success as an agnostic, because you are then doing this for honor, and in a weak moment you will surely reach out to what you oppose. You can not do this for honor, because that is not a constant, G-d is. I'm not going to preach to anyone, but if you want to keep up these ideals, know where they come from and believe it, if you indeed are called to follow it.

As a 15 year old in what I am assuming is the states, he is likely exposed daily and encouraged to try all manner of birth control, even in school. This I disagree with, I don't want my fifteen year old daughter to have to have a conversation with me about her teacher's studded condom preference, and the first rule of marketing is that a more a product is advertised, the more it is bought, so yes, ban propagating kids with things like "safe sex", (which is the ultimate in liberal Orwellian terms, considering you don't know the person well enough to ensure they're not diseased (and by that logic, also an axe murderer), you don't trust the person enough to have a kid with them (which follows, don't love them or trust them to take care of you), you are too young to care for a kid (and also likely too young not to get yourself into all manner of trouble when left to your own vices), or you are too poor, which isn't any excuse for not having kids, but you certainly should focus on G-d's first commandment to man before the second one.) and lots of other crap they feed kids in the schools, but computer gaming destroys as many lives as contraceptives, though tyrannizing it would make it worse for the abusers, and would be unfair to those that use it in accordance with G-dly law, as with contraceptives.

My gut tells me you're a s*** disturber trying to make this site absurd, though I'll take your word that you're a kid trying to learn for now, but seriously think about what you say when before you post, unless you're good at not thinking (still probably bad), and think about what others respond to you; don't make people waste words that are doing you a favor.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline briann

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 8038
  • Mmmm HMMMMM
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2012, 11:23:03 PM »


Yes, but somebody is gonna step in and save the child. I know I would.

Did she hide the child away to prevent anyone else from discovering and caring for the child? If so, then she murdered the child by inflicting a condition where nobody else could intervene and save the child.  If the mother did not hide the child away from potential rescuers, then somebody is going to rescue and care for the child. I would.

Still missing the point.   What if the mother and baby are deserted on an Island in Alaska.

The mother has a 5 year supply of medicine and food for her baby. 

However, after a few months on the Island, the mom stops giving the baby medicine so that her baby could die, because she is tired of the baby crying.

Did the mother do something illegal?

Offline Dr. Dan

  • Forum Administrator
  • Gold Star JTF Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12593
Re: New Political Issue: BAN CONTRACEPTION!
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2012, 11:29:20 PM »
The thought process here sounds like a 15 yr old who is jealous that he isn't in the in crowd and is taking an opposing view so he can feel better about himself.


A child and fetus are not commodities.  They are people.  And once you have a pregnant wife or become a father as a result of a healthy marriage, you will not only understand the value of life, you will become vehemently pro life and anti death.  But if you are a teenager and just throw ridiculous arguments for this and against that, you will suffer until you give in to the real truths which aren't necessarily extremes in either end.

To this 15 yr old..loosen up.  Forget the popular crowd.  Go study and get good grades.  Exercise and play sports.  Get into college. Live a little and by a little I don't mean premarital sex and drugs.  Get a profession, find your soul mate and get married with kids.

Single people will risk their lives for an ideal.  But a father will risk his life for his children for the ideals.  To me, a father makes a better fighter if he loves his kids.
If someone says something bad about you, say something nice about them. That way, both of you would be lying.

In your heart you know WE are right and in your guts you know THEY are nuts!

"Science without religion is lame; Religion without science is blind."  - Albert Einstein