Is Brahmanism an abrahmic religion ?

[Zelhar]

I have heard both Hindus and Jews who believe so.

[syyuge]

Coincidences may be too many, but practically it may not be possible.

[muman613]

I have heard some say that there are some relations.

I have heard it has to do with the souls which Abraham converted and sent to the east, in Genesis.

http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380365/jewish/Abrahams-Presents-to-the-East.htm

I said to them, "My sons, these are words similar to those of the Torah." Nevertheless you should stay well away from these books, in order that you not be led astray by those forms of worship and all of those negative forces that are mentioned there, and stray away from worshipping the Holy One Blessed be He. All these books mislead a person. The ancient children of the East were wise; they inherited the wisdom that Abraham sent with the sons of his concubines, as is written: "Abraham gave gifts to the sons of his concubines and sent them eastward [to India], away from his son Isaac while he was still alive." Over time they were drawn down many wrong paths by that wisdom.

[syyuge]

East can be India, as well as Persia and China.

It is also said that 10 Brahman priests were sent from India to Egypt. Perhaps 7 of those sages operated in Egypt and obviously 3 went to nearby places like ancient Greece or Sumeria. (Here minor corrections in numbers are possible, since I am speaking from old memories).

Generations later, thousands of Brahman Priests returned from Egypt when Moses was fighting against Pharaoh and there was an overall anarchy. Perhaps they further branched off back to India after the golden-calf episode. 

So it is very difficult to say that Brahmanism is an abrahmic religion.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 This Rabbi has made some serious problematic statements about G-D before as well (that I heard, but actually could also be wel too common unfortunatly). Just because their are some similar statements and teachings, Torah and what Avraham stood for was in complete opposition to Hinduism and actually to all other religions as well. The whole world believed in all sorts of Idols and false ideologies. Avraham the Evri (Hebrew) was on the other side that is also partly why he is called the Hebrew. The whole world on one side of thought-religion-ideology and Avraham on the other.

[muman613]

This Rabbi has made some serious problematic statements about G-D before as well (that I heard, but actually could also be wel too common unfortunatly). Just because their are some similar statements and teachings, Torah and what Avraham stood for was in complete opposition to Hinduism and actually to all other religions as well. The whole world believed in all sorts of Idols and false ideologies. Avraham the Evri (Hebrew) was on the other side that is also partly why he is called the Hebrew. The whole world on one side of thought-religion-ideology and Avraham on the other.

Here is a good explanation of this:

http://www.inner.org/whatis/whatis08.htm

Part 8
Confusing Kabbalah with Eastern Religions

The Book of Genesis relates that, following the death of Sarah, Abraham remarried and fathered more children:

To the sons of the concubines that Abraham had, he gave gifts. He sent them away from Isaac, his son, while he was still alive. He sent them eastward to the Land of the East. (Genesis 25:6)

This passage has led some to claim that Eastern religious practices and healing methods are based on the ancient teachings of Abraham--the "gifts" that he sent to "the Land of the East."

However, the Genesis passage clearly states that Abraham wanted to send his younger sons "away from Isaac." As Isaac was the inheritor of his holy mission to spread the knowledge of the One G-d, Abraham sent away his foreign sons--who practiced idolatry--to prevent them from influencing Isaac.

Even if the spiritual practices of the East do indeed originate with the sons of Abraham--which is highly doubtful--they are contaminated with idolatry and are considered spiritually impure. As noted earlier, mixing anything that is spiritually impure with that which is spiritually pure has negative results and can be seriously harmful, both physically and spiritually.

This is not to say that there is no wisdom in foreign spiritual practices. Indeed, it is true that everything in this world--including evil--would not exist if it did not have a spark of "holiness" trapped within it from which it draws life energy. It is our mission in this world to liberate these fallen sparks scattered throughout reality, especially in the garb of impure spiritual practices.

The sages teach, "Believe wisdom from a non-Jewish source, [but] do not believe Torah from a non-Jewish source." The wisdom of which the sages speak refers to the holy sparks of truth that are trapped in the secular arts, the sciences, and foreign spiritual practices and philosophies. Of course, before the wisdom can be believed, the holy sparks must be liberated from their shells of impurity. All "belief" must concur with the belief in the One G-d of Israel and His Torah. Liberating the sparks involves identifying the true source of the trapped wisdom. That true source is the Torah.

The Torah is a complete way of life. "Do not believe Torah from a non-Jewish source," means that there is no true way of life, for any people or individual, other than that of the Torah. The Torah of Israel, which is the blueprint of all creation, contains the full, rectified way of life for a Jew, based on 613 commandments, and for non-Jews, based on 7 commandments. The sparks of wisdom present in non-Jewish sources must be taken under the wings of the faith of Israel; they must return to their true source--the Torah.

The names of all foreign practices and philosophies refer to their would-be "Torah." As such, it is forbidden to adopt such a name, even in an apparently Jewish context. As mentioned above, one must not practice or even speak of Jewish reiki, Jewish yoga, Jewish tai chi, or the like. A name carries a special power and is a source of confusion. This is most dangerous and is strictly forbidden, because linking the Torah to a name rooted in idol worship or even in secular philosophy, turns its power to evil. As noted earlier, only harm can come from such "mixing."

Taking symbols or images from these sources is also extremely dangerous. For example, the Japanese symbols in reiki are definitely tools of idol worship and should not be used. A symbol is like a name; it carries with it impure energy. It is not like a point or spark of wisdom that may be liberated and converted completely to Judaism.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Muman actually to think of it I think sometimes that its some of the people who make these comparisions come to these conclusions but get things the other way around. Some (some not all) of these ideas in whats known today as "Kabbalah" could have been taken from these other religions. Soo its the other way around. For example "reincarnation" and other such things.

[muman613]

Muman actually to think of it I think sometimes that its some of the people who make these comparisions come to these conclusions but get things the other way around. Some (some not all) of these ideas in whats known today as "Kabbalah" could have been taken from these other religions. Soo its the other way around. For example "reincarnation" and other such things.

Authentic Kabbalah does include the concept of gilgulim, and this concept is not just in Kabbalah, but also alluded to in the Talmud. I am aware you do not accept this concept, but it is not from eastern religions...

[muman613]

Here is this same information from aish.com...

http://www.aish.com/atr/Spin-off_Religions.html?catid=907889

EASTERN RELIGIONS: After the death of Abraham's wife Sarah, the Torah says that Abraham took a wife named Keturah. They had children together, and the Torah says: "Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac. But to the concubine children, Abraham gave gifts. Then he sent them away... to the land of the East." (Genesis 25:1-5) The words, "Abraham gave all that he had to Isaac," indicate the Isaac alone was the spiritual inheritor of Abraham's legacy – which was the ability to continue the Jewish faith. The other children, however, did not go to the East empty handed. According to the Zohar, the "gifts" refers to many of the mystical traditions of Abraham. Hence, the ancient eastern religions have their roots with Abraham. Some have even suggested that the name Abraham is the source of Brahma, the Buddhist deity. (For more perspective, see "Letters to a Buddhist Jew" by Rabbi Akiva Tatz)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Authentic Kabbalah does include the concept of gilgulim, and this concept is not just in Kabbalah, but also alluded to in the Talmud. I am aware you do not accept this concept, but it is not from eastern religions...

 check your sources, the Talmudh does not mention Gilgulim. You might find a quote and then with your presumption say here it is look gilgulim, but thats only true if you already believe in it, if your objective you won't see it that way, (that's for the Torah) The Talmudh perhaps even you wont find even that. If not please prove me wrong, bring the quote from the Talmudh.
 About Abraham sending "gifts", you think the father of complete monotheism would send "gifts" and "the powers of the other side" as I heard a number of times before to others especially his other children. To his guests, even arabs (the angels that came to him and all other) guests he was preaching monotheism, but here their are claims that he was supposidly the founder of Hinduism- the opposite of Monotheism. Why? Just because someone found a couple of words that sound similar? That does not make sense and is the opposite of Abrahams true teacings and ways.

[muman613]

check your sources, the Talmudh does not mention Gilgulim. You might find a quote and then with your presumption say here it is look gilgulim, but thats only true if you already believe in it, if your objective you won't see it that way, (that's for the Torah) The Talmudh perhaps even you wont find even that. If not please prove me wrong, bring the quote from the Talmudh.
 About Abraham sending "gifts", you think the father of complete monotheism would send "gifts" and "the powers of the other side" as I heard a number of times before to others especially his other children. To his guests, even arabs (the angels that came to him and all other) guests he was preaching monotheism, but here their are claims that he was supposidly the founder of Hinduism- the opposite of Monotheism. Why? Just because someone found a couple of words that sound similar? That does not make sense and is the opposite of Abrahams true teacings and ways.

The source you are arguing against is the Torah... The quote about sending gifts to the east... See Genesis 25:1-5... What do you suppose these 'gifts' were?

PS:  As the responses I quoted above stated, the teachings of Abraham were not guarded by these sons of concubines who were sent east, away from Yitzak...

Also, we have discussed Gilgulim at length in the Torah section. If you are interested in the sources you can see what I posted about it there. I am sure you do not agree with these interpretations but that is your decision. I have said many times that belief in this is not essential because it makes no difference on how we are responsible for this life we are living.

[muman613]

Also regarding your question as to why some of Abrahams descendants became idol worshipers? That should be a very easy answer considering that even Ishmael and Essau were also descended from Abraham, and we know how they turned out. According to our belief, only the descendents of Abraham from Yitzak, and from Jacob (Israel) were meritorious to carry on the monotheistic tradition as passed down from the Patriarch.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

1) The source you are arguing against is the Torah... The quote about sending gifts to the east... See Genesis 25:1-5... 2)What do you suppose these 'gifts' were?

1) Again making assumptions. Did I once argue agains't the quote of Avraham sending gifts?
2) Definitly not idol worship. Could be anything. Could be pieces of gold, could be cattle, fine clothing, or could be anything valuable, but definitly not idolatrous beliefs and ways.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also the whole "Abrahamic religions" is an assumption. The Torah clearly says that their was 1 way- the way of Avraham was transfered to Yitzhak, from Yitzhak to Yakov, from Yakov to the tribes. Then after the exile in Egypt the whole nation recieved the Torah on Mt. Sinai. Then generations later their were off-shots of chritianity and islam who took from the origional Torah and modified in the ways that they did. Avraham never established these beliefs/religions. This buddism beliefs is the worst perversion of Avrahams true teachings which were in the exact opposite (as attested in the Torah).

[Zelhar]

It would make sense that Keturah's sons were practicing paganism themselves already as we know the patriarchs were unique in the purity of their faith. Even Ishmael, Hagar's son, was practicing paganism.

[syyuge]

It is still to be considered as to which family Abraham himself was born. Had he broke the idols that were being earlier traditionally worshiped by his parents and family or not.

As far as the idolatry is concerned, the Hindus can do it only during the existing evil age of Kaliyug. During the earlier 3 receding sacred ages of Satyug, Tretayug and Dwaparyug the Hindus were not doing it.

Anyhow as per the Hindu beliefs, after the arrival of the Brahmanical (Abrahmic) Messiah and his wars, the whole world will return back to pure and righteous Satyug (Age of truth) and everybody will have the feeling of the almighty Hashem within their hearts and the things like idolatry will automatically be no more required.   

[Zelhar]

Is there such a thing in existence today as a "Hindu monotheist" or "monotheist Brahmin" ?

[syyuge]

Basically and mostly Hindus and their Brahmins are monotheists as per their intrinsic believes, but other religions simply find it difficult to understand or manage to listen to it. Hindus also equally tolerate and accept the various manifestations of the Hashem, the polytheism and various grades of atheists like Jainism, Buddhism and even Eurocommunism. Obviously such weird looking practices can not be always tolerated by the Abrahmics and Hindus understand their position and do not feel any guilt about it.     

[mord]

Basically and mostly Hindus and their Brahmins are monotheists as per their intrinsic believes, but other religions simply find it difficult to understand or manage to listen to it. Hindus also equally tolerate and accept the various manifestations of the Hashem, the polytheism and various grades of atheists like Jainism, Buddhism and even Eurocommunism. Obviously such weird looking practices can not be always tolerated by the Abrahmics and Hindus understand their position and do not feel any guilt about it.     

Jainism is Atheist?

[syyuge]

Jainism is Atheist?

If you asked the question, then you are requested to tolerate this explanation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/jainism/beliefs/G-d.shtml

{As this link may not be working now, so I had to modify it and put below the contents of this link directly}.


Jainism and the divine

Jains do not believe in a G-d or gods in the way that many other religions do, but they do believe in divine (or at least perfect) beings who are worthy of devotion.

This makes it difficult to give a straight answer to the question "is Jainism atheistic?" The scholar Heinrich Zimmer suggested that a new word was needed: transtheistic, meaning "inaccessible by arguments as to whether or not a G-d exists".

G-d and the problem of evil

The Jain view of G-d enables Jainism to explain the evil and suffering that exists in the world without the intellectual difficulties faced by religions that have an omnipotent, wholly good, creator G-d at their heart.

Where religions such as Christianity find the problem of evil one of their toughest tests, Jains use the existence of evil as a reason for denying the existence of an omnipotent, wholly good, Creator.

Jainism and G-d - the theistic side

Some writers regard the jinas as 'gods' because the jinas are venerated by Jains in the way that other faiths worship gods or G-d.

Jains venerate them because they have achieved perfection, and have become liberated from the cycle of birth and death.

The jinas are the ideal state of an individual soul's existence, and are worshipped as a perfect example for Jains to aspire to. So the only 'gods' that exist for Jains are pure souls that are omniscient, perfectly happy and eternal.

All of us could become such a 'G-d' because every being has the potential to become such a perfect soul.

In many ways the Jain attitude to perfect beings is both intelligible and satisfying, and sufficient to demolish the claim that Jainism is an atheistic religion. If one wants to argue that Jainism is atheistic then one must do so from a specific, limited, idea of what it means to be divine.

Prayers

Jain prayers aren't like the G-d-focussed prayers found in Christianity. Instead Jain prayers tend to recall the great qualities of the tirthankaras and remind the individual of various teachings.

Jainism and G-d - the atheistic side

Jains do not believe that the universe was created by G-d or by any other creative spirit. Jain writings are scornful of the very idea:

If G-d created the world, where was he before creation? If you say he was transcendent then, and needed no support, where is he now?
No single being had the skill to make this world -- For how can an immaterial G-d create that which is material?
If G-d is ever perfect and complete, how could the will to create have arisen in him? If, on the other hand, he is not perfect, he could no more create the universe than a potter could.
There is no G-d to maintain the universe

Jains do not believe that any form of G-d is necessary to keep the universe in existence, or that any form of G-d has any power over the universe.

There is no G-d of judgement

Jains do not believe in that sort of judgement. Jains believe that the goodness or quality of a being's life are determined by karma.

Jains believe that karma is a physical process, and nothing to do with spiritual beings.

There is no G-d the ruler

Jains do not believe that there is a G-d who must be obeyed.

There is no G-d who helps people

Jains do not believe in any G-d who will respond to prayer or intervene in the world. The beings that Jains worship have no interest in human beings.

The beings that Jains worship are beyond human contact and they cannot intervene in the world.

There is no G-d who demands worship

The perfect beings that Jains worship have no interest in human beings.

Any being that desired anything would not be perfect and thus not a G-d.

There is no G-d compared to whom each of us will always be inferior

Every soul has the potential to become perfect. All perfect souls are equal.

The heavenly beings are not gods

The beings that live in the heavenly kingdoms are not gods since they are still subject to karma and reincarnation. These beings are called devas.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

It is still to be considered as to which family Abraham himself was born. Had he broke the idols that were being earlier traditionally worshiped by his parents and family or not.

 Avraham was born in present day Iraq. And yes he did break the idols of his father demonstrating that they are falsehood.

 Anyway you seem to know a lot about other religions what about Torah Judaism? Perhaps you should take time to learn. (If your Jewish, if not never mind this last part).

[mord]

I wouldn't consider them atheist as we know the word atheist

[syyuge]

Avraham was born in present day Iraq. And yes he did break the idols of his father demonstrating that they are falsehood.

 Anyway you seem to know a lot about other religions what about Torah Judaism? Perhaps you should take time to learn. (If your Jewish, if not never mind this last part).

Thanx! I am a Hindu and I believe the Torah Judaism to be the original and only true Abrahmic religion. That should be sufficient for me. 

[syyuge]

I wouldn't consider them atheist as we know the word atheist

I agree with you. However the classical definitions for atheism forwarded by many earlier put them as atheists.

[muman613]

Tag,

What I am relating is the interpretation of the sages as to the pasuk concerning the gifts which Abraham gave to his sons (through Hagar {according to most sages}). It is true that these descendants did not keep Torah but they did learn certain mystical arts from Abraham.

This is discussed in Talmud Sanhedrin 91a which I reproduce here:

On another occasion the Ishmaelites and the Ketureans23  came for a lawsuit against the Jews before Alexander of Macedon. They pleaded thus: 'Canaan belongs jointly to all of us, for it is written, Now these are the generations of Ishmael, Abraham's son;24  and it is [further] written, And these are the generations of Isaac,' Abraham's son.'25  Thereupon Gebiha b. Pesisa said to the Sages: 'Give me permission to go and plead against them before Alexander of Macedon. Should they defeat me then say, "Ye have defeated one of our ignorant men;" whilst if I defeat them, say, "The Law of Moses has defeated you."' So they gave him permission, and he went and pleaded against them. 'Whence do ye adduce your proof?' asked he. 'From the Torah,' they replied. 'Then I too,' said he, 'will bring you proof only from the Torah, for it is written, And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac. But unto the sons of the concubines which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts:26  if a father made a bequest to his children in his lifetime and sent them away from each other, has one any claim upon the other? [Obviously not.]'

What gifts [did he give them]? — R. Jeremiah b. Abba said: This teaches that he imparted to them [the secrets of] the unhallowed arts.27


27)  ie., the knowledge of sorcery, demons, etc.

http://halakhah.com/sanhedrin/sanhedrin_91.html


http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8220/showrashi/true

6. And to the sons of Abraham's concubines, Abraham gave gifts, and he sent them away from his son Isaac while he [Abraham] was still alive, eastward to the land of the East.

RASHI COMMENTARY

concubines: (Gen. Rabbah 61:4) This [the word [פִּילַגְשִׁם] is spelled defectively [missing the letter “yud”], because there was only one concubine. That was Hagar, who was identical with Keturah. [The“yud,” denoting the plural, is absent, hence Rashi understands that the word פִּילַגְשִׁם denotes the singular. In our Torah scrolls, the plene spelling appears.] Wives are those who have a marriage contract, whereas concubines have no marriage contract, as is explained in Sanhedrin (21a) regarding David’s wives and concubines.

Abraham gave gifts: Our Sages explained that he gave them “the name of impurity” (Sanh. 91a). Another explanation: All that was given to him because of Sarah and the other gifts that were given to him, all these he gave to them, for he did not wish to benefit from them.