Author Topic: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.  (Read 3870 times)

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Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« on: June 12, 2012, 11:33:29 PM »
If you convert to Judaism, and do not move to Israel, are you going against Hashem?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2012, 11:52:44 PM »
Thanks Dan!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2012, 12:06:28 AM »
I have been looking into that a bit myself lately from the Mishneh Torah perspective, and here is a summary of what I have come up with:

Jews are highly encouraged to move to Israel, but it seems to stop short of being an actual requirement at this time.  Jews are permitted to live anywhere in the world except in Egypt.  Jews already residing in Israel are not allowed to move out of Israel.  Jews residing outside of Israel are not allowed to move to another country unless it's Israel.

 I don't understand where you got the last point from?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2012, 12:10:27 AM »
OK, a big one! Can I convert being married to a gentile?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2012, 10:39:30 AM »

Just as it is forbidden to leave the chosen land for the Diaspora, it is also forbidden to leave Babylon for other lands as Jeremiah 27:22 states: 'They shall be brought to Babylon and there they shall be until I take heed of them... and restore them to this place.'

 Fine, that is talking about Babylon to other lands, but not proving your point of leaving one country (Besides Bavel or Eretz Yisrael) to another country. For example moving from the Netherlands to Britian. Or from Canada to the U.S.A. for example.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2012, 10:53:18 AM »
Yet the rambam himself moved to Egypt, so how is it possible he forbids this ?

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2012, 11:22:59 AM »
Yet the rambam himself moved to Egypt, so how is it possible he forbids this ?

 Its a big discussion about if Egypt includes the Egypt of today or not because the people and culture is different then wayy back then. The land is the same but the country and land is not.
 But besides the Rambam also wrote in his letters that he dwells in land of sin (or something like that) when referring to himself when he was in Egypt. Also their could have been extreneous circumstances that lead to this. Don't forget he was in the run first from Spain.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2012, 04:25:25 PM »
Does it ever say what constitutes Bavel?  It says what constitutes Egypt.  I took it to mean that if you move, you should always be planning to move to Israel, not some other country.  For example, Chaim has said that even though he would rather live in a warmer climate he will not be leaving the place where he is unless it is to Israel.  I think this is the spirit that this law is intended toward.

 Present day Iraq. Today this thought and opinion does not apply, at the time it could have (Mahloket also Gemmarah Kiddushin towards the end) since the majority of the Torah world was in Bavel, some therefore held that since Jews were exiled to Bavel (Present day Iraq) and the vast majority of the Torah centers were there- since in Israel their were many wars and other problems, one should stay in Bavel for the Torah and religious life. Today almost no Jews in Iraq, and the greatest amount both in quality and quantity is in the land of Israel.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2012, 04:31:15 PM »
For example, Chaim has said that even though he would rather live in a warmer climate he will not be leaving the place where he is unless it is to Israel.  I think this is the spirit that this law is intended toward.

 I'm not sure perhaps Chaim can answer why he said this- perhaps a Middat Hassidut on his part, but I would think that if he would move out of NY to let's say Florida especially under the circumstances he is currently in (physically being prevented from fullfilling the Mitzwah) he would be allowed. Perhaps he does not want to move to a place where he will enjoy which might take his mind of yearning to go up to Israel.
 Also their are ideas and laws of not majing the Galut a permanent dwelling but something that is temporary (for example not exceeding a certin amount in building fences around one's property, I believe soo not to make extremly permanent dwellings outside the land).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Gentiles thinking about converting to Judaism.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2012, 05:58:31 PM »
The Commandment to Live in Israel

http://machonshilo.org/en/eng/list-audio-shiurim/41-audiohalakha/565-the-commandment-to-live-in-israel

 
 Usually almost everyone says that a Jew should plan to go up to Israel, but the better way is to do soo with the proper preparations. If one is not prepared enough they can move to Israel and then unfortunatly wind back in the exile because they simply were not ready to come. One should make plans, learn the language, have some savings and a plan as well (which is recommended by many) soo one will be stable and come to Israel with a permanent dwelling as opposed to going back and forth and G-D forbid giving up.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.