Traitor rabbi hands over givat haulpana - lemmings and sheep along for the ride

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This is a sabotage of not only ulpana but all settlements as more demolitions of this type will surely follow.

But how exazctly does this work?  ALL the families put this guy to negotiate with the erev rav?  ALL of them automatically agree to anything he signs?  What if some of them don't agree?  (What if all disagree?)
What exactly was negotiated?  There is nothing new here from what bibi announced.  These supposed 300 houses were already approved long ago.  They just await the signatures to begin construction.  And they face the same derailment they have always faced by an antisettlement govt and courts.  They will never build these houses.  But why should I leave my house and become a homeless pawn just because some other people get approval to build new buildings!  There is no connection.   This is a ruse, and the people aigning this are in on it (the residents agreeing are in on this unwittingly - utter fools)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Actually lets please leave the residents themselves out of this. Given the situation the vast majority of people would probably give in. Don't judge a person until you have been in their shoes would definitly apply to this situation if they personally give in. Imagine being pressured of either having no home vs. possibly having a new one if you don't fight back (which you will loose either way). BUT does that mean that their shouldn't be any resistence? Absolutly NOT. Thousands of people should show up and resist. Besides make a show in Beit El, their should be demos/ other things at places that are predominatly smolani bogdim bolshevikim. The few householders would not make any difference in this struggle.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Actually lets please leave the residents themselves out of this. Given the situation the vast majority of people would probably give in. Don't judge a person until you have been in their shoes would definitly apply to this situation if they personally give in. Imagine being pressured of either having no home vs. possibly having a new one if you don't fight back (which you will loose either way).

??!?!?!

You, unlike most who champion this "cause," are honest.   You don't even say they are getting a new house.  Because they aren't!    You say "possibly having a new one"    - Possibly... There is no guarantee, so what exactly are they agreeing to?  They are agreeing to be pawns in a political game!   They are not receiving new homes.  Ask the Gush Katif expellees.     They are being lied to by a fraud.   And everyone knows those fantasy "300 homes" are never getting approved.   And if they are approved, the court will challenge them.   Or peace now.   Or whatever way to make it not happen, the govt will make sure it doesn't happen, as they have done for years.

BUT does that mean that their shouldn't be any resistence? Absolutly NOT. Thousands of people should show up and resist. Besides make a show in Beit El, their should be demos/ other things at places that are predominatly smolani bogdim bolshevikim. The few householders would not make any difference in this struggle.

What kind of resistance is going to show up when all the residents walk away peacefully?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Btw this is the article I'm referring to
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/157043

Ulpana Residents, Government Sign Agreement
Residents of the Ulpana neighborhood of Beit El agree to leave their homes non-violently in exchange for 300 new homes.

Residents of the Ulpana neighborhood of Beit El, whose homes were ordered to be demolished by the Supreme Court, agreed on Tuesday evening to leave their homes willingly and non-violently. In return, the government will keep its promise to built 300 new homes in Beit El.

The agreement between the residents and the government was signed after ten days of negotiations between government representatives and representatives from Beit El, including the town’s rabbi, Rav Zalman Baruch Melamed, and its mayor Moshe Rosenbaum.

The agreement includes the construction of 300 housing units in Beit El in a defined and agreed upon schedule and the establishment of a ministerial committee that will deal with issues regarding the Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria (Yehuda and Shomron). The committee is to ensure that, in future, no decisions to demolish neighborhoods or communities are made by the government, the Attorney General or the Ministry of Defense.

The agreement also stipulates that the homes on the disputed land will be moved to a new location without being destroyed.

The residents of the Ulpana neighborhood clarified in a statement on Tuesday evening that they were accepting the agreement “with a heavy heart.”

“Following a consultation by Rabbi Melamed with community leaders and representatives of the neighborhood this evening, it was decided to accept the government’s plan with a heavy heart,” the residents said.

“We wish to repeat the words of Rabbi Melamed, that the proposed outline in return for construction to which the public is entitled anyway and the government is required to deliver anyway, in exchange for an agreement to remove the homes, is like telling a father that his son will be taken away from him in exchange for ten others,” they added. “The pain of the houses that are being taken away will not cease and the stain will not be removed from the government.

“However, we are peaceful people,” the residents emphasized. “Struggles between brothers tear the entire public, and our community in particular, apart. We, of course, stand behind the rabbi’s decision that the 33 families will leave their homes in a way that obviates the need to see things that none of our people wish to see.”

On Monday, Rabbi Melamed told his students at the Beit El yeshiva that the struggle to settle the land of Israel is important, but added, “Sometimes, we must understand that there are battles that cannot be won.”

“Therefore,” he continued, “it would be best to use this terrible low point for the betterment of all of Judea and Samaria.”

Rabbi Melamed called to avoid violence of any kind even if Beit El leaders do not succeed in reaching an agreement with the government.

Coalition chairman MK Ze’ev Elkin told Arutz Sheva on Tuesday that there is no legal obstacle that would impede the construction of hundreds of new homes in Beit El.

“This obstacle that legal sources tried to put up has been dealt with… There were difficulties, but ultimately there are those who were elected to set policy, and those who were chosen to advise,” he said

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This shows what type of obstacles these supposed 300 homes will face
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/156791

And these are homes that were already approved long ago!   Nothing new!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

This agreement harms all settlers substantially, and it also enables the creation of a Fakestinian state, one of the Likud govt's #1 goals.

[muman613]

I agree with KWRBT that 'peaceful protest' will get absolutely NOWHERE very quickly. This was the method which the Jews who were led to the gas chambers in Germany were saying. If only they protested more, and more people saw how badly the bastard nazis were treating them, then the situation would change. This is a naive and foolish way of looking at things.

Peace is the desired method of achieving everything, including peace itself. But as the book of Kohelet says so eloquently that there is a time, and a place, for everything under heaven. A time for peace, AND A TIME FOR WAR, I time for love, AND A TIME FOR HATE, there is a time for prayer, AND A TIME FOR ACTION.

I can not judge the Rabbi who must be going through extremely stressful tests at this time. He WANTS TO BELIEVE the government will build these 300 homes. But the international pressure will be too great for Netanyahu and his rapidly shifting leftward government coalition. I think it is a PIPE DREAM to talk about 300 new homes. That is a sad fact that I am willing to express...

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

 It does not matter. People should already have the mentality that any destruction of Jewish homes should be meet with fierce resistence and their is a price to pay. Be it at the neighborhood itself or be it throughout the country. No mercy towards Aravaim HaNazism YSV VeSmolanim Bogdim.

[Meerkat]

I can not judge the Rabbi who must be going through extremely stressful tests at this time. He WANTS TO BELIEVE the government will build these 300 homes. But the international pressure will be too great for Netanyahu and his rapidly shifting leftward government coalition. I think it is a PIPE DREAM to talk about 300 new homes. That is a sad fact that I am willing to express...

if he can't handle the pressure he should step down. handing over ulpana does make him a traitor.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

[quote author=Kahane-Was-Right BT link=topic=62179.msg548988#msg548988

What kind of resistance is going to show up when all the residents walk away peacefully?


 It does not matter. People should already have the mentality that any destruction of Jewish homes should be meet with fierce resistence and their is a price to pay. Be it at the neighborhood itself or be it throughout the country. No mercy towards Aravaim HaNazism YSV VeSmolanim Bogdim.

But signing this agreement is the exact opposite of that mentality.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

But signing this agreement is the exact opposite of that mentality.

 It does not matter what they sign. Like I said they personally could just do nothing, they are a few people anyway, but everyone else can and should do the necessary things.
 And the one who called the Rabbi a traitor- please be careful with what you are saying. He could be mistaken but do not call him a traitor because he is not. Also I do not expect him to speak out against protesting, all they did was sign a document promising them a new home, what do you except him to tell others you know- just fight back- you will loose and be homeless as well. No one wants to be homeless.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It does not promise them a new home.  It promised that bibi will build 300 new buildings in beit el.  And I used the wrong language when I said "sign this agreement" because I don't think anything was in writing, its just some empty promises made verbally.  The govt wants the residents to go quietly like sheep because that will make it easier for them to demolish.

Lastly,  how can someone who agrees to the expulsion of Jewish residents not be called a traitor?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Lastly,  how can someone who agrees to the expulsion of Jewish residents not be called a traitor?

 I don't believe that he agrees. I believe he is looking at it with (in his mind) a pragmatic solution. Right now their homes are a lost cause. Might as well give them something instead of having these Jews be homeless for sure. (I know their are disagreements with this view and we need to be looking at the long term) but this is how it is percieved. Soo let's save the "bogdim" language and reserve it to the truly Smolanim Bogdim Bolshevikim who deserve it. Now if someone activly encouages this (including someone with a title of "Rabbi" that is a different matter entierly).
 Anyway just to let you know the whole Mizrachi- or Religious Zionist movement was founded on this "pragmatic" approach. Had they never compromised they would not have been Religious Zionists in the first place since the soo called "Zionists", well the movement was unfortunatly in control by the leftists to begin with. That is why Haredim never accepted it to begin with and looked at it as a Kefira movement (which sadly in many parts they were/are correct) on the other hand the Mizrachi movement did see positive things from the "zionist" movement mainly the resettlement of the land of Israel/ building homes etc. Today they need to wake up as well and as Rav Bar-Hayim Shlitta says stop being "the fifth wheel" and really take control of the steering wheel (some capable amoung the RZ's like Hayamin).

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

 I don't believe that he agrees. I believe he is looking at it with (in his mind) a pragmatic solution. Right now their homes are a lost cause.

Huh?  Who decided this?  He did?   You did?   If we conclude that all homes disputed by the courts, peace now or the govt are "lost causes" then 100,000 Jews and maybe more should just march their way inside the green lines RIGHT NOW!   Of course it's a lost cause if people who should be motivating and leading the resistance decide that it is a lost cause.   That's called a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Might as well give them something instead of having these Jews be homeless for sure. (I know their are disagreements with this view and we need to be looking at the long term) but this is how it is percieved.

What did he "give" them except promises from a lying fraud?   You still believe Netanyahu's promises/lies by now?   

Even if there was something to be "had" here, it still doesn't make sense.    Agreeing to relocate is agreeing that the land belongs to Arabs, that the residents (or whom they were renting from) never really owned the homes or the property (even though they purchased it), that certain land areas of Eretz Yisrael belong to an Arab Fakestinian state and therefore Jews must not live there, and that it is legitimate for the govt to remove Jews from their homes for the sake of rewarding Arab terror.   If none of the above is true, then a resident (and its leader/rabbi) would simply refuse to leave.   

As for how this behavior "is perceived" - I don't perceive it the way you describe it, because I know better by now!

 

Soo let's save the "bogdim" language and reserve it to the truly Smolanim Bogdim Bolshevikim who deserve it. Now if someone activly encouages this (including someone with a title of "Rabbi" that is a different matter entierly). 

First of all, the so-called "right" are the worst bogdim alive!   Netanyahu is called rightwing.   I bet this rabbi even calls him a nationalist PM.  And yet, Bibi goes to bat for peace now and for the courts.   So many "rightwing" rabbis are the ones who insist soldiers must not refuse orders to expel Jews.   So many "rightwing" rabbis are highlighted in the movie Meraglim betraying Gush Katif.       The rabbis who go along with the govt agenda rather than fighting, and convince their followers to go along, are slowly marching the Jewish people into the gas chambers.    What other term can I use to describe such a person?

There is no significant difference between sanctioning this because of x y z so-called "practical reasons" versus actively encouraging it.    By complying with this evil decree, you are encouraging them to do it again to more settlers.    And you pull the rug out from those who wish to fight this.  Don't you agree with that?   What do you possibly object to ?    Think about it this way, they can do this again to more settlers because afterall, settlement/hilltop XYZ is a "lost cause" and afterall, they will have rabbi So-and-So to tell them to go along with it and give up their homes.   

Just what we need, more homeless and unemployed Jewish expellees with physical and mental health problems due to their imposed suffering and abuse!

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

"Don't you agree with that?   What do you possibly object to ?"

 
Of course I do not agree with it, my point was not to refer to him as a Boged and that in their mind's their are other factors factored in.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

"Don't you agree with that?   What do you possibly object to ?"

 
Of course I do not agree with it, my point was not to refer to him as a Boged and that in their mind's their are other factors factored in.

There is no significant difference between sanctioning this because of x y z so-called "practical reasons" versus actively encouraging it.    By complying with this evil decree, you are encouraging them to do it again to more settlers.    And you pull the rug out from those who wish to fight this.  Don't you agree that is the case?

Of course I do not agree with it, my point was not to refer to him as a Boged and that in their mind's their are other factors factored in.

So how is it different then, if you disagree with me?   Especially considering the result is the same, please tell me how it's different.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/Flash.aspx/242963

Rabbi Wolpe Regrets Ulpana Agreement



Rabbi Shalom Dov Wolpe of the Eretz Yisrael Shelanu organization told Arutz Sheva on Wednesday that he regrets the fact that an agreement was reached regarding the Ulpana neighborhood of Beit El and that a conflict was avoided.

“It’s too bad there was no confrontation,” he said. “If there had been a confrontation such evictions would not happen again. Now that a confrontation was avoided they will evict more and more and Jews until they evict all of Judea and Samaria.”

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Anyay do you even know who has real power in Israel? It is not even the Knesset its the soo called "Judges" who never were elected, who are radical leftists/athiests who are anti-Jews and Judaism. These communists are the underlying enemies- they control the courts the media and have the real $ and power. Only a revolution will get ride of them.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Anyay do you even know who has real power in Israel? It is not even the Knesset its the soo called "Judges" who never were elected, who are radical leftists/athiests who are anti-Jews and Judaism. These communists are the underlying enemies- they control the courts the media and have the real $ and power. Only a revolution will get ride of them.

I see we're changing the subject now.

Ok, fine.  But when these ulpana residents are living in caravillas (God forbid), you will see that I was right.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Ok, fine.  But when these ulpana residents are living in caravillas (G-d forbid), you will see that I was right.

 Did I say you were wrong? I'm just telling you not to loosely use the word "Boged" upon everyone you disagree with it will loose its value when we should be referring to real Bogdim.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Did I say you were wrong? I'm just telling you not to loosely use the word "Boged" upon everyone you disagree with it will loose its value when we should be referring to real Bogdim.

How many times will we be betrayed by rabbis before we can use the word on traitor rabbis?

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

Also remember and do not forget. Honestly I'm starting to forget about Isra-hell. The land is Holy, the state is hell and controlled by pieces of excrement since its inception. Perhaps the Haredim were correct.
 

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

No.  "The haredim" (by this you mean the antizionists) were never right because they are against a Jewish state in principle.  In consequence, they are against redemption of the Jewish people.  Secular / leftist Jew expellers and arab lovers are just the other side of that ghetto mentality coin.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

No.  "The haredim" (by this you mean the antizionists) were never right because they are against a Jewish state in principle.  In consequence, they are against redemption of the Jewish people.  Secular / leftist Jew expellers and arab lovers are just the other side of that ghetto mentality coin.

 the state from its inception was secular. What is happening now does not compare to the crimes that took place back then by a small minority of commies. Remember kidnapped Jewish babies from Yemen? Remember Sefardim being told that their children are going to schools learning Torah yett the "teachers" who taught/teach these subjects were anti-Torah communists. Remember the Altellena and the Hagganah before the establishment of the state handing over Jewish fighters to the British occupiers (also many times torturing them themselves) . The list can and does go on. For starters pick up a copy of Rabbi Kahane's ZTL HYD "Revolution or Referendum".

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

the state from its inception was secular. What is happening now does not compare to the crimes that took place back then by a small minority of commies. Remember kidnapped Jewish babies from Yemen? Remember Sefardim being told that their children are going to schools learning Torah yett the "teachers" who taught/teach these subjects were anti-Torah communists. Remember the Altellena and the Hagganah before the establishment of the state handing over Jewish fighters to the British occupiers (also many times torturing them themselves) . The list can and does go on. For starters pick up a copy of Rabbi Kahane's ZTL HYD "Revolution or Referendum".

Of course I "remember" all of these things!

But don't YOU remember that the antizionists were against a Jewish state in principle, no matter who was participating, long before any of these things happened ?   Get yourself a copy of eim habanim smeicha, and you will learn how the antizionist rabbis are the REASON the state was controlled by seculars and one of the reasons that 6 million Jews perished at the hands of the nazis yemach shemam.