Author Topic: Peace - Salaam - Shalom  (Read 25350 times)

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Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2007, 03:10:01 PM »
The pride and satisfaction of not being a dhimmi dunce.

ftf

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2007, 03:34:29 PM »
The pride and satisfaction of not being a dhimmi dunce.
You can be quite civil without being a dhimmi.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2007, 03:55:07 PM »
What's next ?
Being civil with Nazis ?

'Let's be tollllllllerant'

ftf

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2007, 04:04:16 PM »
What's next ?
Being civil with Nazis ?

'Let's be tollllllllerant'
Civil to them I will be, but no, I will not tolerate nazi beliefs. You can oppose evil without resorting to lies and defamation, attack muslims with the facts.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2007, 04:11:51 PM »
I'm getting a little tired of you accusing me of lying about Islam and Moozies.

You want to be civil with Moozies, go right ahead.

But stop accusing me of lying and defamation.

Unless you can back it up.

I'm not going to be civil with Moozies no matter how much that disturbs you.


newman

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2007, 04:14:48 PM »
I'm getting a little tired of you accusing me of lying about Islam and Moozies.

You want to be civil with Moozies, go right ahead.

But stop accusing me of lying and defamation.

Unless you can back it up.

I'm not going to be civil with Moozies no matter how much that disturbs you.



Give up, Muck

Remember ftf is an apostate Jew. He just has a severe dose of ghetto mentallity.

ftf

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2007, 04:28:00 PM »
Muck, it was newman that I was accusing, not you.

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2007, 04:45:59 PM »
So newman might have made a facetious reference to Moozies having sex with camels.

Big deal.

Obviously, he has no way to know if Abdul ever boned a sheep or a camel.

That's an attempt at some dark humor.

Of course the Ayatollah Khomeini said it was fine to have sex with a goat, as long as you killed it afterwards and didn't sell the meat in your own village.

The difference is the Ayatollah wasn't trying to be funny.

Apparently you believe it's not only possible to be civil with the uncivilized, you actually think it's commendable.

You also think it's desirable to have an intellectual discourse about Islam with the brainwashed idiots that actually believe the Aholey Queeran is the word of God and Mo was his final prophet, as if something productive could come from such a discussion.

I'd rather try to explain why we only see one side of the moon to a hamster than try to have a reasoned debate with a Moozie.

ftf

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2007, 05:16:04 PM »
If we sink to throwing insults we are sinking to their level, rise above their level, stick to the facts, and you are far more likely to achieve something.

Many people would be turned off by hearing you call a muslims a goat shagger, but they will be preapred to listen a reasoned out debate.

And, yes, I know all about the sick teachings of Ayatollah Khomeini, have sexual activity with a goat is far from the worst of what he said is ok. If you want to raise his teachings in a debate though, quote him and ask the muslim or whoever you're debating with what they think, don't just start calling muslims goat shaggers, lets follow that logic a little further, Some muslims looked upto Ayatollah Khomeini as a great man, he said that it's okay to gain sexual pleasure forom a girl as young as five, therefore all muslims think it's okay to gain sexual pleasure from a girl as young as five. Americans have elected Mr Bush as their leader, Mr Bush is an idiot therefore all Americans are idiots...

Offline Dan

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2007, 07:21:36 PM »
Sorry, but I missed the beginning of all this - Who's Abdullah and what's his purpose on JTF forum?

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2007, 11:45:50 PM »
Sorry for the long absense. I would like to thank ftf, I don't want to insult people or lie about them and it is clear that though we may not agree with eachother we can have reasonable conversation. I understand that I can't prove I don't have sex with animals but please remember you can't prove you don't either, not that I'm accuseing you. As I have stated before I'm not middle eastern, I'm white and live in an area with nearly All Jews and Christians. My family is all Christians, my friends are all jews and christians. I'm not trying to lie or spread propaganda- quite the oppisite- I just want to give some truth about Islam. I'm acctually quite shocked at the response I've been getting as I know Judaism and Christianity don't teach people to be hateful or Rude, and you people are claiming to follow your religions. I just want to ansewer questions on Islam and maybe even ask a few about Zionism insha'Allah. Please remember that contery to what you may belive I worship the God- Allah- of the Prophets, All of the prophets includeing Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Adam, and Mohammed PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL. I can assure you I DONOT worship a pagan moon-god. Anyone who tells you this is either a liar or is not well informed about Islam. Again I do not support suicide bombing or terrorism- I do support the fighting of oppression by ANY people regardless of faith. I do not "deny the holocaust" or have racist/nazi beliefs. I am against ALL racism and feel we all share at least the Brotherhood of being the children of Adam (peace be upon him) regardless of if you feel the same or even belive in him, and untill neccisary will treat everyone as such, Any questions?
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Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2007, 11:29:42 AM »
OK, guys. Let me help you here.

I was born and raised in a Muslim country. All of my friends were Muslims. And I even had participated in a student conference on the subject of Islam and Politics.

Now, you have to understand the following:

1) Islam was absolutely fabricated by Mohammed, who stated that the Jews were the chosen people, but they corrupted the Torah;
2) Islam was assembled from pieces taken primarily from Judaism: One G-d, circumcision, no pork etc.
3) Mohammed liked Judaism, but he was against isolationism of the Jews. So he created a religion for all.
4) It was obvious to him that in order to replace Judaism, he had to discredit it first, so he did.
5) It was also obvious to him that nobody would follow an illegal copy of Judaism voluntarily. He saw how Christians were missionizing, and he liked it, but he wanted a more certain success, so he used power and “holy” justification of violence. This is how Islam became a religion of war.
6) He made the process of conversion easier than in Christianity and waaaaay easier than in Judaism, which at those times was significantly more isolated than today. In order to become a Muslim, you need to say that Allah is the only one g-d, and Mohammed is his messenger. That’s it.
7) And of course, even with this simple conversion technique, nobody wanted it, so they were forced to convert. Arabs burned down the territory from Indonesia to Morocco and converted every infidel. Jews were not considered infidels, since they believe in one G-d, but they were considered second class.
8} All Muslims, including those whose forefathers were converted by force, defend other Muslims no matter what. They hate each other, but when an outsider is involved, the Muslim circular defense comes into play.
9) And yes, Islam makes people underdeveloped and envious.

Abdullah is either a liar or he converted into the wrong address.

Why? I’ll tell you… He probably saw the unity of Muslims, their greater morality and modesty level, and he liked it. And let me tell you another thing – there is one good law that Mohammed invented and is different from Judaism – he had forbidden alcohol.

So Abdullah, or whatever his name is, liked the spiritual part of Muslims, and as an expense he had accepted all the weird stuff that Islam is full of.

Let me tell you something, Abdulla:

1) You want to believe in One G-d?
2) You want to have a strong family with a moral girl?
3) You want to circumcise your son(s)?
4) You don’t want to eat pork?
5) Are you against hatred that Islam is full of?
6) And last, but not least, are you ready to make efforts of more than saying that Allah is the only one g-d, and Mohammed is his messenger?

Then don’t buy a cheap and illegal copy of anything. Stick to the original, real thing. An original cannot be corrupted other than by an illegal and pirate copy of it, which is arrogant enough to claim that the original was corrupted.
I am Zvulun ben Moshe and I approve this message.

Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2007, 11:43:55 AM »
... All of the prophets includeing Jesus, Moses, Abraham, Issac, Adam, and Mohammed PEACE BE UPON THEM ALL....

Do you see the cheap tactic he is using?

1) He places Jesus ahead of all so to buy the favor of Christians here. He put him before Moses and even his own “prophet”.
2) How can you make somebody a prophet, when that person claims he is not a prophet, but a messiah, and then you kill his followers naming them pagans? It clearly shows how Mohammed wanted to incorporate everyone under his new project named Islam, no matter how great the contradictions are.
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Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2007, 12:42:42 PM »
Cheap Tactics? I'm not trying to "gain favor" as you claim by putting the Prophets in a particular order. I just want people to know we are not as different as they would like to belive. If you say I worship a Moon god then I suppose you do the same. In Islam we use the moon for ONE purpose, to keep track of the months in the Islamic calandar. The lie that we worship a pagan moon god was invented by the coptic christians who distorted the Arabic word for the god( something that is worshiped ) "ella". I'm sure there was a moon "ella" in mecca but it is certiantly not Allah, The God of the Prophets in the Torah, Gospel, and Qur'an. You can Lie as you like but you will be held accountable, not by me but God. It is not true that the means justify the ends, If your way is true God will allow you to follow it without disobeying Him. For every lie you tell you will be held accountable, regardless of the reason, regardless of your faith, regardless if you can make people belive it. YOU are hardly qualified to tell ME what I belive, I just want to clear up anything that you might be thinking. I'm not trying to get people to like me, I'm trying to Obey what God- Allah has told us all to do, speak the truth. It is a great Jihad in the eyes of Allah to speak out against lies and oppression. If you want to call me a liar and claim its in Islam to lie than go ahead but its not true, instead of going to each other to find out about Islam and to verify you own hate , why not be reasonable, would you think it fair if I only went to other Muslims to learn about Judaism, would you twist your thinking so much to belive you know more about Islam? You claim Islam mistreat women, lets discuss that. Insha'Allah we will at least gain another perspective at worst and find some common ground at best. I will say again IF you would still call me a liar please show me where in Qur'an there is this "permission to lie to the infedels", If you try to quote a Hadith it is meaningless as there are many fabricated Hadith and one who knows anything about Islam will tell you that If a hadith goes against the Qur'an then it could not possibly be accurate. Peace
Allahu Akbar!!!- God is the Greatest

Offline mord

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2007, 12:53:01 PM »
Before yourname was abdullah what was it
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2007, 01:02:55 PM »
Edward
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Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #66 on: July 09, 2007, 01:11:03 PM »
Cheap Tactics? I'm not trying to "gain favor" as you claim by putting the Prophets in a particular order. I just want people to know we are not as different as they would like to belive. If you say I worship a Moon G-d then I suppose you do the same. In Islam we use the moon for ONE purpose, to keep track of the months in the Islamic calandar. The lie that we worship a pagan moon G-d was invented by the coptic christians who distorted the Arabic word for the G-d( something that is worshiped ) "ella". I'm sure there was a moon "ella" in mecca but it is certiantly not Allah, The G-d of the Prophets in the Torah, Gospel, and Qur'an. You can Lie as you like but you will be held accountable, not by me but G-d. It is not true that the means justify the ends, If your way is true G-d will allow you to follow it without disobeying Him. For every lie you tell you will be held accountable, regardless of the reason, regardless of your faith, regardless if you can make people belive it. YOU are hardly qualified to tell ME what I belive, I just want to clear up anything that you might be thinking. I'm not trying to get people to like me, I'm trying to Obey what G-d- Allah has told us all to do, speak the truth. It is a great Jihad in the eyes of Allah to speak out against lies and oppression. If you want to call me a liar and claim its in Islam to lie than go ahead but its not true, instead of going to each other to find out about Islam and to verify you own hate , why not be reasonable, would you think it fair if I only went to other Muslims to learn about Judaism, would you twist your thinking so much to belive you know more about Islam? You claim Islam mistreat women, lets discuss that. Insha'Allah we will at least gain another perspective at worst and find some common ground at best. I will say again IF you would still call me a liar please show me where in Qur'an there is this "permission to lie to the infedels", If you try to quote a Hadith it is meaningless as there are many fabricated Hadith and one who knows anything about Islam will tell you that If a hadith goes against the Qur'an then it could not possibly be accurate. Peace

Listen to me and read by points and don’t throw a load of emotional statements:

1) Learn about Islam from Muslims? I told you, I was raised in a Muslim country. You are the one who converted and I assume live somewhere in a Christian country. I also said that I had an academic work on Islam.
2) We are not different? So why invent new religions if we were so similar? Why Mohammed invented an illegal copy of Judaism and accused Jews in corrupting Judaism?
3) I don’t support the moon G-d story. Muslims believe in the same G-d as Jews, but Islam is a corrupt and completely fabricated theology, except for those things that were stolen from the Jews.
4) If you want to obey G-d, follow his law, which is the ETERNAL COVENANT. If you want to follow any corrupt copy of it, that is your problem. You want to believe in fake, unoriginal, illegal things, go right ahead.
5) Muslims can’t and don’t want to discuss Islam, because they are afraid of the truth. That’s why they issue death fatwas left and right. Now, do you wanna tell me that death fatwas are also un-Islamic? Is this how you peacefully open to discussion?
I am Zvulun ben Moshe and I approve this message.

Offline mord

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #67 on: July 09, 2007, 01:17:52 PM »
Edward
You know you could keep your name even when you become a moslem
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
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Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #68 on: July 09, 2007, 01:21:30 PM »
I will add something.

I am against isolationism of Judaism. I am not for proselytizing, but I truly believe, if Judaism was more open thousands of years ago, we would not have any illegal copies of it.
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Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #69 on: July 09, 2007, 01:59:22 PM »
) you first point is really just a statement, I was adressing all of the people who read this not just yourself, I don't belive most people have a fair understanding of Islam.
2) We are not accusing you of corrupting Judaism but rather God is. Now this may seem harsh but it is our belief, Do you have an origianal torah? You might have one in Hebrew but can you be certian of its accurasy? We follow the Religion of Allah, what he taught ALL the Prophets, the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) did not "invent" Islam as you claim. Islam is the original religion of the Jews and what the true followers of Jesus(pbuh) followed. I know I will probably get Angry responses but it is the Truth.
3) Alhamdulillah you don't buy the coptic lies but as I already stated Islam is not fabricated.
4)I try my best to follow the laws of God, but I do not belive we are in agreement on which laws are false and corrupted. I will respond with your quote- "If you want to follow any corrupt copy of it, that is your problem. You want to believe in fake, unoriginal, illegal things, go right ahead."
5)I can't speek for all Muslims but I can and Do wish to discuss Islam. I don't say that All death fatwas are un-Islamic but they are certianly not for people who criticise Islam. If you are reffering to the Author of "satanic verses" the Fatwa was "recalled". It was never legitimate anyway based one the Qur'an but I am not entirely certian.

As for the other question yes I know I don't have to change my name but I wanted to. Its not like I hate the name Edward but I like Abdullah a lot more, It means "slave of God" or "servant of Allah"
which I would like to be.It also kind of represents my new life as a Muslim. You do actually have to change it if its contadictory to Islam like for example "Christian". As for the reason for my "emotional" response , I don't like being called a liar, especially in a catch 22 scenario. I will try to ansewer any other questions .Peace
Allahu Akbar!!!- God is the Greatest

Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #70 on: July 09, 2007, 02:05:04 PM »
I'll tell you more, Edward.

You tell me to read Qur'an? I have.

Have you read Torah? I am sure you have not.

Now, how can you convert into Islam that claims it is a more authentic version of Juduaism without reading Torah?

How can you read a book in a foreign language without first learning the language?
I am Zvulun ben Moshe and I approve this message.

ftf

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #71 on: July 09, 2007, 02:08:31 PM »
Edward/Abdullah, I'm prepared to stand up for you against flaming and baseless insults, but just so you know, I am as opposed if not more opposed to your religion than anyone else on this site, anyway, can you respond to my first post in this thread:

Firstly, guys, lets be civil, hurling insults that go beyond the truth belittles us, not the person we are trying to inuslt.

It doesn't seam that many points have really been made, other than mindless insults, however, there is one that Abdullah raised that I would specifically like to refute.

In response to the earlier question here is the definition of a "Innocent civilian"- any non-combatant.
Its is not true that Islam say All non-Muslims are not innocent, actually quite the oppisite. The Prophet Mohammed (peace be upon him) once said " whoever harms a non-muslim citizen has harmed me" here is a verse from the Holy Qur'an that is of a similar theme- 5:32 " Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land"

If you give the refference for the quote "whoever harms a non-muslim citizen has harmed me" so i may look at the context I'll be able to comment about it, but for now I'll have to stick to the one that you have referenced.

Lets take this verse as it appears without added notes:

Quran Surah 5 Ayat 32:

"Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits in the land."

Firstly, this verse has no instructions in it for muslims at all "We ordained for the Children of Israel", it is talking about an instruction for Jews, not muslims. Now the definition of "spreading mischeif in the land" is a matter of great dispute, some muslims who do accept this verse as being intended to instruct muslims as well as Jews will also say that speaking against Islam is spreading mischeif in the land, so then this verse becomes an encouragement to kill non-muslims. Now if we look at the end of the verse "even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits" remembering that this verse was addressed at the beginning "We ordained for the Children of Israel" we see that the true intention of this verse is to call Jews evil. So far from being a message of peace, this verse is anti-semitic nazi style propoganda.

Do your research before making another point.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 02:10:13 PM by ftf »

Offline Zvulun Ben Moshe

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #72 on: July 09, 2007, 02:21:52 PM »
....
2) We are not accusing you of corrupting Judaism but rather G-d is. Now this may seem harsh but it is our belief, Do you have an origianal torah?...

G-d is accusing the Jews... Says who? Mohammed? A guy who claims to see it in his dreams?

Mohammed did not accuse the Jews, but G-d did?

You know, you can be the greatest liar, but you won't find any retards here to buy such a childish statement.

The Allmighty G-d divided the Red Sea for the Jews, but He was so incapable and came into Mohammed's dream and could not do anything more than that?

If G-d spoke to Mohammed and accused the Jews, then let me make a similar statement: I spoke to G-d yesterday and He said that He never spoke to Mohammed.

You believe me? Of couse not, but if I force you, if I rape your sister and mother, you will find sense in my words. That's exactly what Mohammed did.

Nobody trusted him, but he forced them. Will you deny this too?

Now. If Torah is so corrupt (G-d forbid), why the Jews followed Moses without a single harsh move from him, and all current Muslims are children of those who were converted by force?

Not only Moses made a lot of sense, Jews saw the miracles of G-d. The whole nation saw it, not only Moses.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 02:24:51 PM by Zvulun ben Moshe »
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Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #73 on: July 09, 2007, 02:41:53 PM »
I diagree with you "interpretation" of the verse. Maybe this one will help clear it up-5/28 "If you do stretch your hand against me to kill me, I shall never stretch my hand against you to kill you, for I fear Allah; the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns, and all that exists)." 
You seem to forget your blasphamy laws.
Here are some not so peaceful verses out of the bible

Rom. 12:19 teaches (1) we are not to avenge or exact justice on our own but rather (2) "give place", i.e., make room for, God's wrath. What is meant by "God's wrath" is explained in the next phrase: "Vengeance belongeth unto me; I will recompense, saith the Lord." So evil men experience God's wrath as He takes vengeance on them. But how and when does God do this? Read Rom. 13:1-7.

There are "higher powers" ("Caesar's judgment-seat", Acts 25:10) that God has "ordained", vs. 1. Those who arrange themselves in battle (see Vine, p. 958) against their authority are setting themselves against God and shall receive judgment, vs. 2. But when and how does this judgment take place? Vss. 3-4 make it clear: rulers are intended to be a "terror" to evil men and their deeds, vs. 3, because they are ministers of God. Through the ministers of civil government God wields the "sword", the instrument of justice and punishment, and His intention is that it not be "borne" ("a continual or habitual condition," Vine, 93) "in vain" ("to no purpose", Vine, 1193).

Clearly, the "wrath of God" that we are to "give place to" as He takes vengeance is that which is administered at human hands in various forms of civil government as they wield the "sword."

I got this out of a christian site so don't call it "propaganda"
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Offline Abdullah

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Re: Peace - Salaam - Shalom
« Reply #74 on: July 09, 2007, 02:47:16 PM »
You simply cannot "convert" someone to Islam( make them a Muslim by force)
It is impossible as one has to CHOOSE to submit to the Will of God willingly to even BE a Muslim. Islam being spread by the sword is an outright lie. I belived I heard someone mention the Time when the Prophet lead the belives against a caravan? Well they forgot to mention how the Caravan was of their possesions that were stolen after they left Mecca. Plain and Simple you can't force someone to be a Muslim, its against the very word Islam.
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