Likud is moving to the RIGHT? May it be!

[muman613]

It looks like the latest Likud primaries have boosted the 'right-wing' factions in Likud. While I realize that around here this is not taken seriously because some of these may have said things which contradict a true hard right-wing Israeli view. I do want to believe that Feiglin will be a motivator for moving further to the right concerning protecting the Jewish homeland and preventing any concessions which involve sacrificing Jewish sovereignty to our Holy land.

[mord]

     


Pro-settler hardliners swept a vote on Monday held by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, effectively tossing four of his closest allies and backers of Middle East diplomacy off a list of candidates running with him in a Jan. 22 election.

Party members ranked candidates on a list for the national poll to determine which of dozens already nominated could actually be elected to parliament.

The top 15 chosen, or those most likely to become or be re-elected as lawmakers, overwhelmingly included ultra-right champions of Jewish settlement on land Palestinians want for a state.

Netanyahu is predicted to win re-election in the national election in two months’ time. But being surrounded by more hardline lawmakers than previously could toughen his policies on such issues as Iran’s nuclear programme which Israel has vowed to stop, and diplomacy with the Palestinians, already frozen since 2010.

The main losers in Monday’s vote or those who garnered too few votes from some 100,000 party faithful to guarantee re-election, were Dan Meridor, Benjamin Begin, son of late Prime Minister Menachem Begin, and Avraham Dichter, in addition to Michael Eitan, a rare civil libertarian in Likud.

Among the winners were ex-general Moshe Yaalon, currently a minister for strategic affairs, seen as a possible successor to the more moderate Ehud Barak as defence minister.

“With such extremists Netanyahu could have problems,” Roni Milo, a former Likud cabinet minister, quipped in a video interview with Ynet’s news Web site.

Netanyahu, though, had no immediate comment.

Likud’s balloting had been fraught with tension, also for technical reasons when computer malfunctions forced the vote to stretch into a second day.

Left-wing and centrist parties in Israel assailed Likud’s candidate rankings. The centrist Kadima party headed by former general Shaul Mofaz charged in a statement the right-wing party he also once belonged to “has now lost its way and been swayed to the extreme margins of the political map”


Read more: http://forward.com/articles/166746/pro-settlement-extremists-sweep-likud-primary/#ixzz2DQw8SV7n

[Zelhar]

The Likud has always been a corrupt party and so it remains. It even picked up back some of the garbage traitors who left it for Kadima like Tsachi Hanegbi. Virtually every name in their list except Feiglin is a certifiable traitor. There is not one member of Knesset that cannot be bought.

[mord]

The Likud has always been a corrupt party and so it remains. It even picked up back some of the garbage traitors who left it for Kadima like Tsachi Hanegbi. Virtually every name in their list except Feiglin is a certifiable traitor. There is not one member of Knesset that cannot be bought.

There's nothing i like about Hanegbi he's the worst opportunist around.Isn't  his mother Geula Cohen she's a decent person

[Zelhar]

There's nothing i like about Hanegbi he's the worst opportunist around.Isn't  his mother Geula Cohen she's a decent person

Geula Cohen is not as decent as you think, she was yet another small time politician. She also supported the ban on Kahane because he competed with her phony right pary (Hatchiyah). By the way she has a show in the Israeli national radio together with another senile elderly citizen, the communist writer Eli Amir. Two senile citizens ranting about current affairs they don't understand.

[mord]

Geula Cohen is not as decent as you think, she was yet another small time politician. She also supported the ban on Kahane because he competed with her phony right pary (Hatchiyah). By the way she has a show in the Israeli national radio together with another senile elderly citizen, the communist writer Eli Amir. Two senile citizens ranting about current affairs they don't understand.

[Yerusha]

In the 17th Knesset in 2006 Likud only won 12 seats!

If only the January 2013 election repeats that, so that even Feiglin doesn't get in, to teach him a lesson for being an idiot and flogging the dead horse neviloh in sticking with the Likud!

I predict that just as Sharon was 'taken off the scene' for his sin of Gush Katif, Bibby will also, one way or another, not be the next Israeli PM, for his sin of destroying Migron!

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

In the 17th Knesset in 2006 Likud only won 12 seats!

If only the January 2013 election repeats that, so that even Feiglin doesn't get in, to teach him a lesson for being an idiot and flogging the dead horse neviloh in sticking with the Likud!

I predict that just as Sharon was 'taken off the scene' for his sin of Gush Katif, Bibby will also, one way or another, not be the next Israeli PM, for his sin of destroying Migron!

You're living in a dream world.

Hashem is not coming to earth to do the work for us.    Get ready for reality, son.

[Yerusha]

Hashem took Ariel Sharon out of commission (6 months to the day after the Pulsa). Do you believe that He can 'decommission' Bibi from politics too through His methods, as per the lyrics of Zilber's song?!



"Men say that Hashem is in the heavens. The Angels say that Hashem is on the Earth!" (Zohar)

Hashem is not coming to earth to do the work for us.   

According to this Kabbalist http://soulmazal.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/election-day-looms-spark-of-yosef-or.html Bibi had the potential of being Moshiach Ben Yosef......instead he is morphing in to the Anti-Moshiach Armilus!

[muman613]

Oy vey....

Thats about all I will say...

[muman613]

I gotta admit I am mighty disappointed with the beeb... I spoke with my good Chabad Rabbi this evening {I love the guy} and we talked about the situation in Israel. We agreed that beeb is a let-down. I don't wish evil on him, as I believe he has merits which we do not know, but I do wish somehow he would disappear from the scene and allow some fresh new right winger take the helm of Likud.

I don't see any way that Likud is not going to maintain a majority of seats in knesset. It would be best if the most right wing members {and even some very hard right 'fake' right-wingers... [did I just write that?]} get positions in the party. Certainly it is not ideal but it would be great if someone like Feiglin {and I know I'm gonna get flak for that} would get an influential position...

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Hashem took Ariel Sharon out of commission (6 months to the day after the Pulsa). Do you believe that He can 'decommission' Bibi from politics too through His methods, as per the lyrics of Zilber's song?!

As per you being a tool, you are speaking a lot of gibberish.  Why haven't you "Pulsa'ed" achmedinejad?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

It looks like the latest Likud primaries have boosted the 'right-wing' factions in Likud. While I realize that around here this is not taken seriously because some of these may have said things which contradict a true hard right-wing Israeli view.

Muman the problem is not that they have said certain things.  Its that up until this point none of them have been able and/or willing to stop bibi's agenda or even stand in his way.   So what makes you think now will be any different?

Bibi is their boss.  Their employer.     It takes real guts to go against him and I haven't seen it from this crowd.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Well, Muman?

[AsheDina]

Didnt Chaim just put out a vid about Feiglin? 
http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,65717.0.html

I doubt that anything is going to change in Israel with the left/right.

Zelhar knows his home, so he also knows what is happening.

I also believe that the ONLY way for Israel to change is to put Chaim in charge of Israel.
David believes this also.

[muman613]

Well, Muman?

I do not support Bibi, I was hoping though that there would be more voices which support the strengthening of the Jewish presence throughout the land, and cease giving land to the enemies. This is the message I have heard from Feiglin and others, such as Hotevoley (sp?). Any re-configuration of Likud with more high-level 'right wing' members will be better than with more openly left-wing members.

I have never said Likud is a panacea, it is a political reality. By not attempting to influence it from within we are cutting off any ability to change it. Standing for principles is a great thing, and I do not knock it, but politics does require working within a system of give-and-take and what needs to be stood up for is a policy of 'not an inch of the land will be surrendered'.

Do you really think that change will come by standing of the side-lines and yelling and screaming about how terrible these 'phony right wingers' are? I agree that they are phony right-wingers but I do believe that the system can only be changed from within. I do not foresee an all out civil war in Israel where the right-wingers pull a coupe and overthrow the current government.

So while I admit that Likud is a poor example of a right-wing party I also recognize the political reality that a Likud with a majority of seats (or a coalition with such a majority) can do some good.

I would like someone to explain what the goal is to constantly pull-down the existing powerful party and/or the plan to move forward to a system which ensures the safety of the Jewish nation in our land?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I do not support Bibi, I was hoping though that there would be more voices which support the strengthening of the Jewish presence throughout the land, and cease giving land to the enemies. This is the message I have heard from Feiglin and others, such as Hotevoley (sp?). Any re-configuration of Likud with more high-level 'right wing' members will be better than with more openly left-wing members.

I have never said Likud is a panacea, it is a political reality. By not attempting to influence it from within we are cutting off any ability to change it. Standing for principles is a great thing, and I do not knock it, but politics does require working within a system of give-and-take and what needs to be stood up for is a policy of 'not an inch of the land will be surrendered'.

Do you really think that change will come by standing of the side-lines and yelling and screaming about how terrible these 'phony right wingers' are? I agree that they are phony right-wingers but I do believe that the system can only be changed from within. I do not foresee an all out civil war in Israel where the right-wingers pull a coupe and overthrow the current government.

So while I admit that Likud is a poor example of a right-wing party I also recognize the political reality that a Likud with a majority of seats (or a coalition with such a majority) can do some good.

I would like someone to explain what the goal is to constantly pull-down the existing powerful party and/or the plan to move forward to a system which ensures the safety of the Jewish nation in our land?

Muman, in your solilquoy about Likud, you haven't addressed my point.

So, here it is again:

Muman the problem is not that they have said certain things.  It's that up until this point none of them have been able and/or willing to stop bibi's agenda or even stand in his way.   So what makes you think now will be any different?

Bibi is their boss.  Their employer.     It takes real guts to go against him and I haven't seen it from this crowd.

Hotovely already was a minister in likud.   Likewise Danon.  And Saar.   And so on and so on.     Why do you think this time is any different?   

I grant Feiglin hasn't been there before, but he is already saying he intends to "work with Netanyahu."    I don't know, maybe you think he is saying this deceptively only until he gets his seat, so they can't use it against him to deny him or push him lower.    And that is possible.    But even if we set aside Feiglin, why do you think the above-mentioned party hacks will be suddenly able to buck the trend and contradict the agenda of their chairman, when that has never been the case before?  Please address my points directly instead of the overall sentiment of JTF forum which you feel the need to rail against.   I have no vested interest in knocking anything.  But you can be damn sure that if someone doesn't deliver on their promises and their tough speeches which I have seen time and again from this Likud crowd, I'm going to call them on it!

A false hope, if it is indeed false, does nothing except engender complacency, which makes that hoped for entity even more dangerous and more potentially harmful.

[muman613]

Muman, in your solilquoy about Likud, you haven't addressed my point.

So, here it is again:

Muman the problem is not that they have said certain things.  It's that up until this point none of them have been able and/or willing to stop bibi's agenda or even stand in his way.   So what makes you think now will be any different?

Bibi is their boss.  Their employer.     It takes real guts to go against him and I haven't seen it from this crowd.

Hotovely already was a minister in likud.   Likewise Danon.  And Saar.   And so on and so on.     Why do you think this time is any different?   

I grant Feiglin hasn't been there before, but he is already saying he intends to "work with Netanyahu."    I don't know, maybe you think he is saying this deceptively only until he gets his seat, so they can't use it against him to deny him or push him lower.    And that is possible.    But even if we set aside Feiglin, why do you think the above-mentioned party hacks will be suddenly able to buck the trend and contradict the agenda of their chairman, when that has never been the case before?  Please address my points directly instead of the overall sentiment of JTF forum which you feel the need to rail against.   I have no vested interest in knocking anything.  But you can be damn sure that if someone doesn't deliver on their promises and their tough speeches which I have seen time and again from this Likud crowd, I'm going to call them on it!

A false hope, if it is indeed false, does nothing except engender complacency, which makes that hoped for entity even more dangerous and more potentially harmful.

KWRBT,

I don't know what is so hard to understand about what I said. And I DO NOT rail against JTF sentiment as you suggest. I understand that these are not Right-Wing according to JTF position. This is granted. But my hope is that Likud does indeed shift to the right. I am not saying that it is a foregone conclusion with the current line-up. This is why my post asks "Likud is moving the the Right?" with a question-mark. And then I say 'May it be so!' as a hope that indeed there is a shift going on.

I ask again what is the JTF vision how we will change the political situation in Israel? I do not see any endorsements only divisive talk about those who don't rise up to the level of a Kahanist. Granted none of the current crop of Likud would ever approach the strong position of a Kahanist. But how does one make changes in the existing system without having connections to the current majority party? Does making youtube videos really affect the political situation in Israel? If so I guess I have nothing else to say. But I would be interested in just how much the JTF message is influencing the vote in the upcoming election.

I still believe that making alliances with those who have power at this time may be a way to get more power in the future. This does not involve selling out or compromising on the most important issues, but it does require some give and take (as I described before). I would just be satisfied knowing that we have a real solution here at JTF which I can support. Indeed I believe Chaim would be perfect for such a position, but what about the political reality of today?

Do you understand where I am coming from yet? Or do you seek to argue with me about this?

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

KWRBT,

I don't know what is so hard to understand about what I said. And I DO NOT rail against JTF sentiment as you suggest. I understand that these are not Right-Wing according to JTF position. This is granted. But my hope is that Likud does indeed shift to the right. I am not saying that it is a foregone conclusion with the current line-up. This is why my post asks "Likud is moving the the Right?" with a question-mark. And then I say 'May it be so!' as a hope that indeed there is a shift going on.

I ask again what is the JTF vision how we will change the political situation in Israel? I do not see any endorsements only divisive talk about those who don't rise up to the level of a Kahanist. Granted none of the current crop of Likud would ever approach the strong position of a Kahanist. But how does one make changes in the existing system without having connections to the current majority party? Does making youtube videos really affect the political situation in Israel? If so I guess I have nothing else to say. But I would be interested in just how much the JTF message is influencing the vote in the upcoming election.

I still believe that making alliances with those who have power at this time may be a way to get more power in the future. This does not involve selling out or compromising on the most important issues, but it does require some give and take (as I described before). I would just be satisfied knowing that we have a real solution here at JTF which I can support. Indeed I believe Chaim would be perfect for such a position, but what about the political reality of today?

Do you understand where I am coming from yet? Or do you seek to argue with me about this?

So you respond to me by again saying the same thing without addressing the questions?   That would be rather frustrating if I didn't already come to expect this type of thing from you, Muman.

How many times are you going to "explain where you are coming from" without answering the questions about a Likud party that continues to EXPEL JEWS FROM THEIR HOMES and continues to strip the legality from Jewish settlements such as  Ulpana and Migron?          Can you answer me what in particular about these primary results suggests a more rightwing likud?

Can you answer me, what have these so-called nationalist and rightwing ministers done to stop bibi or stand in his way for the past several years when they had the chance to do so?

From what I have seen, they have done nothing.   It's been empty promise after empty promise and betrayal after betrayal.

So indeed it is we other JTFer's who need to question YOUR premises when you suggest or question has the likud become or is the likud becoming more rightwing.    It is we who must ask you, if Labor was in power, would you say the same things you are saying about Likud about the Labor party?   Would you say that since they are the majority party in power, how else can we change the system without being connected to them somehow?!    Please consider this question.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

As to the question of the youtube videos.   I don't understand how in today's world of political correctness, liberal brainwashing, and especially the antisemitic self-hating Israeli media propaganda onslaught, anyone can possibly doubt that videos preaching kahanism impact people's views on various subjects.   Do we want to do more than just make and promote youtube videos?  Of course.  That is only one tool and it's only one of the things we are currently capable of doing.      But I don't understand why any of us should ever support or encourage support for a party that expels Jews.   

Expulsion of Jews is a red line - If you expel Jews you are a traitor, plain and simple.     So don't give me this nonsense about people not being "pure Kahanists" enough for us, or not being sufficiently "hard right wing."      Being a non-traitor is not even rightwing at all, it's normal.

[muman613]

Do you not think that the majority of even the center-right voters have shifted to a more right-wing postion? It is because I feel that there has been a change, maybe only a small one, that I think that Likud must actually act on it's word. My question is how long can the people be lied to? After this last 'cease fire' I know that my feeling (which is admittedly only based on my discussion with an Israeli friend who just returned from the land) that the people want a clear and reliable ending of the attacks from gaza. They are tired of having to run to the shelters, and living in fear every day.

I believe that the sentiment that the gaza needs to be dealt with in an efficient way, removing the remnants of hamas from their roach holes. I have heard more of this sentiment from people who are not normally counted as right-wing.

So do any of the real-right-wing parties have any increase in representation? Is there going to be new coalitions between religious zionists? I do not know and yet I still think that Likud will have to at least do something to earn the votes of the right wing.

So while I have explained to you why I said this, could you answer some of the questions I posed in my previous posts?

What is the plan, who is the best right-wing party which has a chance? Is there any chance they could form a coalition, or an alliance with Likud who seems to be the party with the most seats...

[muman613]

Is there a party which could have prevented the expulsions? The list that I vaguely remember seeing was very slim..

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

I have never said Likud is a panacea, it is a political reality. By not attempting to influence it from within we are cutting off any ability to change it. Standing for principles is a great thing, and I do not knock it, but politics does require working within a system of give-and-take and what needs to be stood up for is a policy of 'not an inch of the land will be surrendered'.

Likud is a party, not a system.

No rightwinger ever said, "Our only ability to change Meretz is to influence it from within.  Therefore let's all join meretz and make them nationalist."     The very obvious logical approach is not to associate with meretz and to defeat them.

Do you really think that change will come by standing of the side-lines and yelling and screaming about how terrible these 'phony right wingers' are?

Hopefully yes, pointing it out (no yelling or screaming necessary) will wake people up to what the kapos are doing to them.   The kapos lie and deceive and so people have impressions of them as being "rightwing" or "safe" or "friendly" when they are not.     That is precisely the danger and is exactly the reason why we do NOT support Likud.   Because doing so would perpetuate those feelings of complacency and misplaced loyalty and trust.    As I said in another post, a false hope is more dangerous than just dealing with an enemy because of the complacency it produces.   With complacency that false hope is empowered to do even more damage than if people just saw it for what it is.

I agree that they are phony right-wingers but I do believe that the system can only be changed from within. I do not foresee an all out civil war in Israel where the right-wingers pull a coupe and overthrow the current government.

I honestly do not think that is the only alternative.   You think that a civil war and coup is what JTF strives for?  Hardly!

I would like someone to explain what the goal is to constantly pull-down the existing powerful party and/or the plan to move forward to a system which ensures the safety of the Jewish nation in our land?

Since I'm so sickened by this line of questioning, I will respond to this, although I obviously do not speak for everyone at the forum.   Why should I care that they are powerful?   Does might make right?    Do we worship power? 
Wasn't it the shelly rubin clowns who supported Sharon's gaza expulsion on the basis that he was in power and duly elected official?   And we cannot oppose his agenda as leader of the Jewish state?

There is no goal here to constantly pull down anything.   The goal here is to promote Jewish nationalism and oppose those who are a danger to the Jewish people and damage the Jewish people.    So if members or the leader of the "existing powerful party" do something harmful to the Jewish people, the response here - the anger, the frustration, the disappointment, the criticism, and so on - that people express here is just a response to that party's evil behavior.    If netanyahu magically transformed into a iran and arab destroyer, and a builder of Jewish settlements, we would be happy.  But he is not that, and magical changes are not something that logical people rely on.   So based on past experience we know what the person is like, we know what he has done and what he does, and we continue on the same path criticizing those evil decisions time after time.   

What I don't get is how you developed such a soft spot for Likud all of a sudden that you do not like the 'pull-downs' by people on the forum.

[Kahane-Was-Right BT]

Is there a party which could have prevented the expulsions? The list that I vaguely remember seeing was very slim..

Bibi maneuvered all the way through to make those settlements illegal, and then afterwards to abide by the court ruling.  All of these so-called rightwingers who are in his party had ample opportunity to do something about it, but they went along for the ride.      Are you now telling me that the ministers within the party CANNOT influence the decisions of the prime minister?    If so, then you really can't claim that primaries have any significance at all!  Because then, the party roster would be an irrelevant afterthought, now wouldn't it?

[muman613]

KWRBT,

I just want what is best for Israel, as I am sure you do also. I may not be as familiar with the players or the system I do believe I know how politics works. I have said several times that I admit that Likud is not ideal, and certainly we should endorse a real right winger who will accomplish the goal of ensuring that the enemies of the Jewish people are kept far away. My coming down on 'pulling these parties down' is only because I do believe that there could be some cooperation between parties allowing more political support of policies which accomplish the goal I just mentioned.

Enough on this. I do not suggest JTF support Likud. I am just saying that there may be some hope for more real right wing nationalist ideas in the populace.