Author Topic: Islam and Women  (Read 6347 times)

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Offline Abdullah

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Islam and Women
« on: July 09, 2007, 01:02:19 PM »
This subject is one I find to be almost laughable but it is a sticking point for most non-Muslims. You claim we beat our women, force them to wear burkas, and force them into marrige. Al of these things are not true. Now having said that I realise that there are Muslims that may not treat thier wives Islamicly or perfectly and there are people who claim to be implementing Sharia that do not or distort it (taliban) that abuse women. These people are wrong and will be punished. You claim that because there are limits to polygamy in Islam we encourage or practice it, however there are no such limits in the Bible or Torah. There is not even a punishment in Sharia law for a women who does not cover up properly(wear Hijab) it is between Her and Allah. I encourage any questions on the subject and also challenge anyone to bring up a Qur'anic verse oppressive to women. Peace
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2007, 02:57:33 PM »
I can find more if you want, but here's a start (note, the between verse commentary was written by me):

What Islam says about women.

One particular issue raised in the Quran is lewdness, this is defined in a dictionary as behaviour that is crude and offensive in a sexual way, what I would particularly like to draw reference to here is the different way in which men and women are to be treated if guilty of lewdness.

Surah 4 Ayat 15-16:
“If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some way.

If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for Allah is Oft-returning, Most Merciful.”

With women they are to be punished as soon as it is decided that they are guilty whereas with men they are to be given the chance to repent. Also note in western society sexual jokes are a common every day thing, under islamic rule these would fall into the category of lewdness, and would be punishable by death through starvation.

On a more positive note it does say that wives cannot be inherited against their will, nor can their dowers be confiscated unless they are guilty of lewdness

Surah 4 Ayat 19:
"O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good."

On a more negative note the Quran sanctions the beating of wives

Surah 4 Ayat 34:
"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means: For Allah is Most High, great."

As witnesses one man is worth the same as two women:

Surah 2 Ayat 282:
"O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her. The witnesses should not refuse when they are called on (For evidence). Disdain not to reduce to writing (your contract) for a future period, whether it be small or big: it is juster in the sight of Allah, More suitable as evidence, and more convenient to prevent doubts among yourselves but if it be a transaction which ye carry out on the spot among yourselves, there is no blame on you if ye reduce it not to writing. But take witness whenever ye make a commercial contract; and let neither scribe nor witness suffer harm. If ye do (such harm), it would be wickedness in you. So fear Allah. For it is G-d that teaches you. And Allah is well acquainted with all things."

According to the Hadith it is perfectly alright to rape women taken as captives during a battle or raid

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 718:
"I saw Abu Said and asked him about coitus interruptus. Abu Said said, "We went with Allah's Apostle, in the Ghazwa of Barli Al-Mustaliq and we captured some of the 'Arabs as captives, and the long separation from our wives was pressing us hard and we wanted to practice coitus interruptus. We asked Allah's Apostle (whether it was permissible). He said, "It is better for you not to do so. No soul, (that which Allah has) destined to exist, up to the Day of Resurrection, but will definitely come, into existence."

“coitus interruptus” of course means having sex but stopping before you ejaculate, the answer from Muhammad saying that only people who are destined to exist will come into existence, as far as I can see is saying that it is fine for the men to have sex with their captives, and not necessary for them to try to not make them pregnant while doing so. If anyone can provide me with an alternative interpretation of this passage please do so.

Also of note is that Muhammad married a 9 year old

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234:
Narrated Aisha:

"The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

Actually there is a disagreement on this matter in the Hadiths

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236:
Narrated Hisham's father:

"Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old."

This suggests that the marriage occurred when Aisha was only 6, but that he didn’t have sex with her until she was 9.

In the Quran it is stated that men can have sex with their wives as much as they want and however they want, nothing is said about the wife’s opinion on the matter.

Surah 2  Ayat 223:
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will; but do some good act for your souls beforehand; and fear Allah. And know that ye are to meet Him (in the Hereafter), and give (these) good tidings to those who believe."
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 04:50:46 PM by ftf »

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2007, 03:41:03 PM »
All right I will get to ALL of your accusations BUT not all at once. Please try to limit yourself to 1 or 2 questions per post so I can fully respond to each one.First you are compleatly wrong about the meaning of “coitus interruptus”. It means in crude terms "pulling out". It was asked if it was alright to practice it and the Prophet(pbuh) said that it was but that it was not able to guarantee that the women would become pregnant. As for your last statement of a man can have sex whenever and however is just not true. Contrary to Judaism and some Christian beliefs Muslims belive intercourse with ones wife can be done as is wished by the couple within certian limits. As for having sex whenever it is also not true. It is said that sex is forbidden during a womens Menses and under various circumstances. It is also mentioned that one should respect his wifes feelings and wishes.
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2007, 03:49:47 PM »
Look, that quote from the hadith quite clearly has Mohammed sanctioning rape.

If it is so that Islam gives the wife some rights regarding sexual activity, what does surah 2 Ayat 223 mean?

Offline Shlomo

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2007, 04:01:04 PM »
ftf is tearing Abdullah a new one... LOL

Abdullah, you picked the wrong guy to argue with about islam... you are in over your head.
"In the final analysis, for the believer there are no questions, and for the non-believer there are no answers." -Chofetz Chaim

ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2007, 04:03:44 PM »
The last guy I argued with gave up saying that he was too busy after about 20 A4 pages worth of debate in which he had not disproved any of my points.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2007, 04:32:58 PM »
First I will say that ftf is a Good debator.
I will also say that I too am busy but will try to make time to post fairy regularly. I'm not makeing it up I'm getting married insha'Allah but will make as much time as possible.

That is not the meaning of the Verse at all. It means you can have intercourse with her in whichever position you please (not just from the front). It dosen't mean whenever you want. This verse is not about "rape' but about lawful sexual intercourse, rape is not allowed contrary to the bible and torah.
Peace
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2007, 04:41:37 PM »
Just look at the beginning Surah 2  Ayat 223:
"Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when" followed later by the words "you like"

This seams to be quite blunt, if it doesn't mean it is alright for the amn to have sex wth his wife whenever he wants without his wifes permissions, it is worded in a way that suggests that it means that, surely a book that came from G-d wuld not be so easy to misunderstand in such a radical way. Therefore, either the Quran is not from G-d, or, the Quran says it's alright for men to rape their wives in which case if it is from G-d I would rather goto hell than follow G-d.

If there is any hole in my logic, please tell me.

Also, you said the bible allows rape, please tell me where you're getting this from, if you really can find such a verse which isn't a blatant misinterpretation, I will renounce my religion.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2007, 04:57:56 PM »
Do you regard Women and children as plunder?
 (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

 

     As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace.  If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor.  But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town.  When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town.  But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder.  You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

 

Would God's book approve of murder, rape, and slavery?

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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2007, 05:07:37 PM »
Ah, the very common misunderstanding, yes that verse is saying take the women and children, it does not say mistreat them at all, as sex outside of marriage is strictly forbidden by the ten commandments amoung other things, if one was going to rape  one of those women one would first have to marry them, if you skip on a couple off shapters you will see a huge list of things that must be done if you wish to marry a cpative, by the nature of this list it seams obvious that the intention is to disuade any such event. (the list starts in chapter 21 verse 10)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:12:15 PM by ftf »

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2007, 05:25:32 PM »
But murdering the men is fine?
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2007, 05:29:32 PM »
But murdering the men is fine?
I don't know the Jewish perspective on this, so I'll give you the christian one, these were instructions for survivial in a harsh time, in which most peoples killed everyone when they conquered anywhere, killing the men was a precaution against having them organise resistence against you. Note that this is instructions for fighting an enemy that had given you a reason to fight them.

(note, just so you know I'm going to bed very soon, so I probably won't be able to respond to you any more for about 12 hours)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:32:33 PM by ftf »

newman

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2007, 05:33:37 PM »
ftf, my boy I'm starting to develope a niggling respect for you as I watch you carve up this America-hating, Jew-hating animal.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2007, 05:38:05 PM »
What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.
(Peace be with you ftf)
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 05:39:56 PM by Abdullah »
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2007, 05:40:50 PM »
What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.
Me slander and insult? Name one slander or insult that I have done against you and I will appologise, I gave the christian perspective as I am a christian and don't know what the jewish perspective is for that verse.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2007, 05:42:12 PM »
No No No, not you the other guy who keeps calling me an animal. You have shown me full respect.
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newman

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2007, 05:50:21 PM »
What is your problem? You are pretty good at insulting and slandering people but you've yet to say ANYTHING worth listening to. I don't know about Judaism but in Islam we are supposed to be civil even with our enemy, Also if we have nothing nice to say to just be quiet. Maybe you should give the Jewish perspective on the verse instead of insulting me.

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

"civil to your enemies"!!!!!

You animals have mutilated,raped, tortured and murdered more prople than smallpox, aids, the black plague, the nazis and communism combined.

Your vile,evil religion and it's followers are a curse on mankind. I live for the day when pigslam is nothing but a distant sorry footnote in history and that ugly black moongod rock at mecca has been blown-up to make way for a piggery.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2007, 05:51:47 PM »
Can you back up you statistics, no Because their lies
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newman

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2007, 05:56:12 PM »
Can you back up you statistics, no Because their lies
What would be the point?
All you luatics do is dispute the source. Try watching the evening news.

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2007, 05:58:30 PM »
 Yes they never lie on TV ;D
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2007, 05:59:01 PM »
newman, making claims that you can't back gets you nowhere.

newman

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2007, 05:59:51 PM »

Offline Muck DeFuslims

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2007, 06:13:53 PM »
I have deleted the contents of this post as it contained nothing worth reading ~ftf
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 06:15:01 PM by ftf »

Offline Abdullah

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2007, 06:16:20 PM »
wow another great post by a clearly intelligent and a logical thinker. Please refrain from mindlessly insultig people without proof or reason. Peace
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ftf

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Re: Islam and Women
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2007, 06:18:39 PM »
wow another great post by a clearly intelligent and a logical thinker. Please refrain from mindlessly insultig people without proof or reason. Peace
Re-read his post.