12 DAYZ OF MEXMAS

[Confederate Kahanist]

Merry Mexmas to everyone on the forum 

[Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks]

Part of me thinks this is funny and part of me thinks it's really retarded. The Santa made it all worth it though.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

As a Jew, I don't understand how Xtians don't know about their own religion. As a Jew, I think in a religious perspective. How many Xtians know that Advent precedes X-mas and the actual X-mas season is December 25 to January 6? I mean, I probably know more about Xtianity than many people who call themselves Xtians. I guess that's what the Mexican Xtians in the video are celebrating.

But I don't find it constructive to criticize Mexicans in a racial manner. Criticize the drug cartel and illegal aliens, not all Mexicans. Also remember that many Mexicans are white and that Hispanic was made up by the US Census Bureau. There is no Hispanic race just like there is no Fakestine. Many Latin Americans (The correct term.) are white, others are Mestizos, and others are Amerinidians. Some (Especially in the Caribbean like the Domincan Republic.) are black. Thus they can't be grouped into a mythical race (Hispanic).

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Now I watched. It looks like they're just as bad as other Americans who don't know about their own holiday. The 12 Days I guess was taken from Americans (Who don't know the origin of the song.). Is this made up self-hating Mexicans who make Mexicans look bad or is it by racists making fun of them?

[AsheDina]

As a Jew, I don't understand how Xtians don't know about their own religion. As a Jew, I think in a religious perspective. How many Xtians know that Advent precedes X-mas and the actual X-mas season is December 25 to January 6? I mean, I probably know more about Xtianity than many people who call themselves Xtians. I guess that's what the Mexican Xtians in the video are celebrating.

But I don't find it constructive to criticize Mexicans in a racial manner. Criticize the drug cartel and illegal aliens, not all Mexicans. Also remember that many Mexicans are white and that Hispanic was made up by the US Census Bureau. There is no Hispanic race just like there is no Fakestine. Many Latin Americans (The correct term.) are white, others are Mestizos, and others are Amerinidians. Some (Especially in the Caribbean like the Domincan Republic.) are black. Thus they can't be grouped into a mythical race (Hispanic).

Did you ever LIVE with these people in YOUR Apt complex? ? ?
Eff these Mexicans, they SUCK. They WORSHIP family over G-d, PERIOD.

Everyone dumps on Jews, B. D.. And Mexicans are serial Jew haters...yeah, not all, but most.

[AsheDina]

Celebrate 3rd world culture.

 

[briann]

That was actually semi funny.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Did you ever LIVE with these people in YOUR Apt complex? ? ?
Eff these Mexicans, they SUCK. They WORSHIP family over G-d, PERIOD.

Everyone dumps on Jews, B. D.. And Mexicans are serial Jew haters...yeah, not all, but most.

I don't have any experience with bad Mexicans. Any Mexicans I've known are good people. Maybe it's different in states that border Mexico where the illegals go to. I think Caribbean Latin Americans are generally more the way you describe since they try to act black. Puerto Ricans generally talk like blacks and live in neighborhoods where everyone talks English like blacks do (Just got to Spanish Harlem or the Bronx.). They probably don't act that way in their countries of origin though. Maybe Americans treating them bad makes them stick around their own kind and therefore live in areas with blacks and learn bad customs from them.

But remember, Spain is a European country. Latin Americans of Spanish decent are just as white as other Europeans, North Africans, and Southwest Asians. We shouldn't treat people like non-whites just because of their language or the idiotic census bureau who change racial definitions every 10 years. Indians were listed under white but now are lised under Oriental (Under the fake Asian race.). Indians belong to many races just as Latin Americans do. They should only list real races and those of mixed race should be able to check multiple choices or "more than one race".

[Rubystars]

As a Jew, I don't understand how Xtians don't know about their own religion. As a Jew, I think in a religious perspective. How many Xtians know that Advent precedes X-mas and the actual X-mas season is December 25 to January 6? I mean, I probably know more about Xtianity than many people who call themselves Xtians. I guess that's what the Mexican Xtians in the video are celebrating.

The date when Christmas is celebrated has nothing to do with Jesus' actual birthday. There's nothing in the NT that even says we should celebrate such a day. It was basically a result of the RCC trying to Christianize pagan holidays to help convert the pagans.

There's a serious conflict on whether Christians should even participate in it because the truth is that Christmas is the birthday of Tammuz and not Jesus and corresponds to Saturnalia rather than anything that's actually Christian. I think the main reason most Christians still celebrate has to do with interactions with family. I think it's good if people can take some time away to think about the Bible and what they believe but the celebration itself is a bit questionable from a Biblical perspective because we're not even supposed to imitate what pagans do.

On the other hand, the left wing loves to attack Christmas and the celebration of Christmas and is trying to strip it of all Christian associations that have accumulated onto it in the past few centuries. I don't think they'd be so viciously anti-Christmas if there wasn't something genuinely good in it as far as reminding people of Christian values. The fact that the left wing seems to hate Christmas so much makes me think there must be some good in it worth preserving.

Maybe it can be changed somehow in the future to be celebrated in a better way.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I'm aware of the fact that many Christians don't believe he was born then. But isn't Tammuz something in the Summer? The Jewish month of Tammuz is around June and July. The name comes from a Babylonian deity as are all the month names to remind us of the Babylonian Exile.

Isn't December 25 the Sun g-d's birthday or Mithra (As Muman posted.)?

I know X-mas was banned from New England and was only introduced to the US by Germans in the late 1800's. Santa Claus is even based on Oden. There have been Christians on Right Wing forums that celebrate Thanksgiving based on Sukkot and not X-mas.

But many Christians are not aware that the Church copied things to get pagans to convert since they grow up in a society that doesn't take part in the original pagan festivals, especially in the New World, where the predominate society was based on Judeo-Christian values, unlike Europe.

[Rubystars]

I'm aware of the fact that many Christians don't believe he was born then. But isn't Tammuz something in the Summer? The Jewish month of Tammuz is around June and July. The name comes from a Babylonian deity as are all the month names to remind us of the Babylonian Exile.

Isn't December 25 the Sun g-d's birthday or Mithra (As Muman posted.)?

I know X-mas was banned from New England and was only introduced to the US by Germans in the late 1800's. Santa Claus is even based on Oden. There have been Christians on Right Wing forums that celebrate Thanksgiving based on Sukkot and not X-mas.

But many Christians are not aware that the Church copied things to get pagans to convert since they grow up in a society that doesn't take part in the original pagan festivals, especially in the New World, where the predominate society was based on Judeo-Christian values, unlike Europe.

Tammuz is a pagan deity who is the son of Nimrod and Semiramis. The names of these pagan deities change from region to region but it's the same basic story with different names. The male pagan deity is the sun god and the female pagan deity is the moon goddess. Mithra is just another one of those name changes.

I've heard that a lot of pagans laugh at Christians and think that Christians are the stupidest people on earth because we speak against pagan religions and yet often celebrate without knowing it in the same fashion that they do. So I do think that there needs to be some changes made but it can be a very difficult concept for a lot of people who are steeped in tradition of the last few centuries.
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I'm not sure exactly what steps should be taken right now but it's something I've been thinking about a lot recently.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Nimrod is actually a real Biblical person who tried to kill Abraham. He was the son of Kush but usurped power in Babylonia. He's responsible for the Tower of Babel. In the end, he was killed by Esau on the day Abraham died (Also the day Jacob bought the birthright. Lentil soup is a mourners food. Jacob made it for Isaac when he was sitting shiva for Abraham.).

[muman613]

Nimrod is actually a real Biblical person who tried to kill Abraham. He was the son of Kush but usurped power in Babylonia. He's responsible for the Tower of Babel. In the end, he was killed by Esau on the day Abraham died (Also the day Jacob bought the birthright. Lentil soup is a mourners food. Jacob made it for Isaac when he was sitting shiva for Abraham.).

Yes indeed, our father Abraham was thrown into the fiery pit of Or Chasdim by Nimrod. Because Hashem was with Abraham (who had complete faith in Hashem) he emerged unscathed from the pit.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

The date when Christmas is celebrated has nothing to do with Jesus' actual birthday. There's nothing in the NT that even says we should celebrate such a day. It was basically a result of the RCC trying to Christianize pagan holidays to help convert the pagans.

There's a serious conflict on whether Christians should even participate in it because the truth is that Christmas is the birthday of Tammuz and not Jesus and corresponds to Saturnalia rather than anything that's actually Christian. I think the main reason most Christians still celebrate has to do with interactions with family. I think it's good if people can take some time away to think about the Bible and what they believe but the celebration itself is a bit questionable from a Biblical perspective because we're not even supposed to imitate what pagans do.

On the other hand, the left wing loves to attack Christmas and the celebration of Christmas and is trying to strip it of all Christian associations that have accumulated onto it in the past few centuries. I don't think they'd be so viciously anti-Christmas if there wasn't something genuinely good in it as far as reminding people of Christian values. The fact that the left wing seems to hate Christmas so much makes me think there must be some good in it worth preserving.

Maybe it can be changed somehow in the future to be celebrated in a better way.

Some say it was celebrated on Dec 25. to drowned out the pagan days of worship! But in my opinion we should only celebrate the holidays Jesus would of followed!

[Every Jew AK47]

December 25th was actually the birthday of many pagan Roman, Egyptian and European g_ds.  The greatest of them all was Dionysos (Dionysus), the sun g_d of Rome, who was honored by many of the people in Rome and Greece and who many of the traditions of the holiday are attributed to. 

Christmas has about as much to do with Christianity as Diwali has to do with Judaism.      The wreaths, trees, ornaments, pentagrams on the trees, Santa, elves, caroling are all part of the fusion of ancient cultures that reflect on the worship of the sun g_d and the rebirth of the sun.  When Constantine turned Rome into a Catholic nation, in order to keep people loyal to both him and the new religion, he needed to mix some of sacred pagan practices with the national Catholic religion, which still was foreign to many in the area, but was gaining popularity all through the Middle East and Europe.

Other g_ds, sometimes confused or mixed together with other sun deities, would be Tammuz, Osiris, Mithra, etc.

Also, many will find it odd that the Roman day of worship was on SUN day.  This is the day they would worship and pray, have services, etc to their sun deity.  The sun deity was considered the greatest of all deities, in which there many in these societies.

Anyhow, I don't hate pagans or even the fact that Christians follow or don't follow pagan customs. I have Hindu friends who obviously worship multiple deities and have customs some many consider "pagan".  As long as their religion is peaceful and they are good people who don't oppress or hurt others, I am fine with their practices. 

[muman613]

EveryJew...

I know you are trying to be informative, and that these so-called dieties are not worshipped today... But a Jew is not even supposed to mention the names of these dieties... Isn't it best to avoid using their names by mis-spelling them?

[Every Jew AK47]

I'm not very religious so I don't know if it is forbidden or not.. I was merely writing historical and anthropological/philosophical information.  I suppose if we are not allowed to discuss Greek/Roman mythology, we will stay in the darkness as far as understanding other cultural practices, holidays and just knowledge of anthropological and historical knowledge.   Hence, why I bring up the subject at all.  I also bring up a lot about the pagan deities when discussing how some of their worship and the cultural practices surrounding them has brought hardship on the Jewish people.  Remember, we lived for 1000s of years in societies ruled by foreign peoples who worships such deities.

But, if misspelling their names is the appropriate thing for a Jew to do,  then I should take note  and do that for now on!  It may complicate me trying to make critical points in religious, historical and theological discussions, however, as many non-Jews may have a hard time understanding what I am talking about.

I thought we only misspelled the name of our own G-d, as He is holy to us.  Considering, I do not worship any of these pagan deities and their name has no meaning to me, I never thought it was worth giving them any importance, as to misspell them.  For example, the name all*h is not even the real name of the pagan moon deity of Mecca which the muslims worships.  His name is actually something else, the name musilms use is a morphing of the original name of the moon g_d they worshiped long before Islam existed.   I am aware we are not suppose to utter or write any of the holy names/descriptions of Hashem, unless it is in prayer.  I didn't realize pagan deities also had this reservation.

ON another note, wouldn't the word Christian, it self be considered deity like and should be misspelled, since the name contains part of the name of their g-d?  Also, considering Jesus (Can I spell it or not??) is the g-d of the Christian people, is it wrong we spell his name or mention it in these discussions?  I have seen many threads where his name is used by Jewish people, including this one.  I personally don't find it wrong, and I do not worship him.

This is something I will bring up to my Rabbi next time I see him, as it has caught my interest.

P.S. COnsidering other Jewish people on this thread have used the name of pagan deities in their posts, how come you were addressing me alone and not everyone else?

[Binyamin Yisrael]

The reason he said not to say their names is not because they are holy, but rather that saying them may be a kind of idol worship. But doesn't the Torah itself say the name Asherah and demand we destroy Asherah trees which the pagans eventually made into X-mas trees?

[muman613]

The reason he said not to say their names is not because they are holy, but rather that saying them may be a kind of idol worship. But doesn't the Torah itself say the name Asherah and demand we destroy Asherah trees which the pagans eventually made into X-mas trees?

Yes, that and Baal.. but there are no longer people who worship them.

I have posted about this before. Maybe later i will find those links...

[muman613]

http://www.torahweb.org/torah/special/2004/rsch_mikdash.html

G-d describes Himself in His Torah as "a jealous G-d"[1]. He forbids us to display any interest in any other religion[2]. We are not permitted to attend a religious service of any other faith, or even watch it on television[3]. We may not study works of or about any other religion[4], watch films about them, or study any pieces of religious art. A Jew may not enter a house of worship of any other religion even during the hours that services are not being held[5]. We may not even "utter upon our lips" the name of any other god[6]. This jealousness of G-d is not because He feels personally slighted and hurt. The Tehillim[7] described G-d as sitting in heaven and having himself a good chuckle over all idolatrous practices. But the concern is rather that these practices have a negative effect on mankind[8].

We may not donate any funds towards the furtherance of any other religion[9], nor advise or help in any other way to maintain any other religion.

It is well known that certain religions encourage their clergy to engage in dialogue with the Jewish clergy in order to further conversion[10]. It is obvious that we may not aid the clergy of any other faith in furthering their religion in such a fashion, or in any other fashion.

There mere comparison of the Jewish religion with any other religion already constitutes an affront to the Jewish G-d, as if to imply that there is something substantial shared in common between the two. Rambam[11] compares this to a real person standing next to a statue of a human being, and having someone compare the two.

Each religion is defined by its principles of faith. Judaism is not a "twin sister" to any other religion. Even Catholicism, which started as a break away from the Jewish religion, has moved over the centuries so far away from Judaism, it is improper and misleading to speak of any "Judeo-Christian tradition". Even when these two religions share the same positions on certain moral and ethical issues, the source of the binding force for each group of adherents is totally different.

The Holy Temple represented the notion of the chosenness of the Jewish people. The "western candle" of the menorah burned miraculously to indicate that G-d chose to dwell only with the Jewish people[12]. The twelve loaves that sat on the shulchan all week long were miraculously still fresh and warm at the end of the week, to show how beloved the Jewish people are to G-d[13]. The cherubim hugging each other represented the idea that G-d loves His chosen people like a husband loves his wife[14]. According to Talmudic tradition[15], at the time the Jews were not properly observing G-d's Torah laws, the cherubim would not even be facing each other. Nonetheless, at the time the enemies entered the Holy Temple to destroy it, they noticed that the cherubim were hugging each other[16]. At first glance this doesn't seem to make sense. Wasn't the destruction of the Temple due to the fact that the Jews were not keeping the mitzvos? How could it be that at that time the cherubim were looking at each other, let alone hugging each other[17]? The explanation for this is that G-d did not want the enemies to think that at the time of the destruction of the Temple the Jews had lost their status as "am hanivchar". Even at the time that G-d shows his smiling face to the other nations of the world ("af chovev amim") and delivers the Jews into their hands for punishment and torture, we still maintain our status as "am hanivchar" ("kol kedoshav beyadecha")[18].
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[1] Shmos (20:5)

[2] Shabbos (149a)

[3] see Nefesh HoRav pg. 230

[4] Rambam Hil. Avodah Zarah (2:2)

[5] See Shulchan Aruch Yoreh Deah (end of chap. 157)

[6] Shmos (23:13)

[7] (2:4).See Rambam in Iggeres Taiman

[8] See commentary of Rav S.R. Hirsch (end of Parshas Emor)

[9] Avodah Zarah (13a)

[10] See N.Y. Times Sept. 23, 2000 (pg. A8)

[11] Iggeres Taiman (chap. 1)

[12] Shabbos (22b)

[13] See Chagiga (26b)

[14] Yuma(54a)

[15] Bava Basra (99a)

[16] Yuma(54b)

[17] See Ritva and Maharsha

[18] See Rashi to Vezos Habracha(33:3)

[muman613]

The Talmud explains in Avodah Zarah 50...

http://dafyomi.co.il/azarah/insites/az-dt-050.htm

1) UTTERING THE NAMES OF FALSE GODS

QUESTION: The Gemara has a lengthy discussion about the stones of Beis Kulis. Throughout Maseches Avodah Zarah, the Gemara frequently mentions various names of Avodah Zarah. TOSFOS (DH Avnei Beis Kulis) quotes RABEINU TAM who asks why the Gemara is permitted to mention those names. The verse states, "The names of other gods you may not mention; it should not be heard on your lips" (Shemos 23:13; see Insights to Shabbos 129b). Although the Gemara in Sanhedrin (63b) states that if the name of the Avodah Zarah is mentioned in the Torah, one is permitted to say its name, many of the names mentioned in the Gemara here, such as Kulis, are not mentioned in the Torah.

ANSWERS:
(a) TOSFOS quotes RABEINU TAM who answers that the original name of the Avodah Zarah was "Kilus" -- "praise," and the Chachamim changed it to "Kulis" -- "scorn." The term "Mar" which the Chachamim inserted before the word "Kulis" also means "in exchange," signifying the exchange of the name "Kulis" for the name "Kilus." (See AVODAH BERURAH at length as to why the Chachamim did not leave the Kilus part and put "Mar" in front of it, signifying "the opposite of praise.")

(b) The ME'IRI in Sanhedrin (63b) writes that in the framework of learning Torah, one is permitted to mention the names of Avodah Zarah if doing so will facilitate his Torah learning. (Accordingly, mentioning the names certainly is permitted when one learns Maseches Avodah Zarah and needs to clarify the specific idols and forms of Avodos done for each.)

There is an obvious Halachic difference between these two opinions. According to Tosfos, even when learning Torah, a person must alter the name of the Avodah Zarah. According to the Me'iri, one need not alter the name of the Avodah Zarah when he is learning Torah.

HALACHAH: Does this dispute also apply to mentioning the name of the Nazarene? Many people have the custom not to mention his name, but to alter it in some degrading manner. Is there a basis for that custom?

The CHAVOS YA'IR (#1:11) had an argument with a certain sage. The sage wrote to the Chavos Ya'ir, "I see that you are not careful in Halachah, as you wrote the name of the mother of Oso ha'Ish as it is said by the Nochrim." The Chavos Ya'ir responded that although the custom is to be stringent not to pronounce the name of Oso ha'Ish and his mother and one should not change the custom, the Halachah permits one to say his name, and certainly to write it, for a number of reasons:

1. The Nazarene religion is not actual Avodah Zarah. (This is a subject of great debate among the Poskim. Most Poskim rule stringently, and some differentiate between the different sects.) He adds that this certainly is true about the mother of the Nazarene.

2. A name of an Avodah Zarah cannot become forbidden if it is the name of a person.

3. The prohibition against saying the name of an Avodah Zarah applies only when the Avodah Zarah was given its name when it was made an Avodah Zarah. For example, if a house was called "Kulis House" before it became a house of Avodah Zarah, and the name was adopted by the Kulis House worshippers, one is permitted to continue calling it the Kulis House. This is because the name was already permitted and can no longer be forbidden. Similarly, the Chavos Ya'ir asserts, people mention the names of the planets, such as Saturn, even though they were also worshipped. The BI'UR HA'GRA (YD 147:8) quotes this reason in the name of the YERE'IM and the HAGAHOS MAIMONIYOS.

The Chavos Ya'ir adds another leniency (which does not necessarily apply in the case of the mother of the Nazarene) and says that the prohibition applies only when the Avodah Zarah still has some followers. If it is no longer worshipped by anyone, one is permitted to say its name.

These reasons apply only to the given name of the Nazarene, but not to the Greek modifying word added to it which means "Messiah." Adding that word indeed may be prohibited. In any event, the custom is not to mention his name. It is noteworthy that even when the Chavos Ya'ir and Bi'ur ha'Gra discuss this Halachah and the reasons for leniency, they do not mention his name. (Y. Montrose)

[muman613]

Oh, Im sorry if you think I was directing this to you alone....

I have brought this up before when we start to mention these names. I even brought it up concerning a concern that the name 'Mumbai' is the name of a pagan diety and there is discussion whether we are permitted to utter it.

It has nothing to do with you EveryJewa44... I just want to try to keep things as close to Halacha {that I understand} as I can. I try to bring both the lenient and the strict interpretation... So do not feel that I am trying to suggest you did anything wrong. Let us just be more careful... All of us..

Here is a link to where I discussed this topic a few months ago:

http://jtf.org/forum/index.php/topic,65365.msg569680.html#msg569680

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Does that mean we can't say Obama becuase as Chaim says, the new religion in America is worshipping blacks?

[muman613]

Does that mean we can't say Obama becuase as Chaim says, the new religion in America is worshipping blacks?

I always misspell that name, obumma, obomba, osama, etc. etc...

[Every Jew AK47]

This is interesting Muman.. Thanks for clarifying the issue.. I am going to discuss this with the Rabbi..   I also will take time to read those Talmudic verses you posted.  However, I have to say this can get very hairy, because there are many references to pagan deities in the English language that we may not even be aware.   One, for example, is the planets in our solar system.   I still wonder about using words that also contain the name of other religion's g-ds, such as Christian?  Maybe, the Talmudic verse you posted and a discussion with my Rabbi will help educate me on this issue for me better.