Abortion doctor charged with 1st degree murder after slaughtering live babies

[Debbie Shafer]

Dr Gosnell's House of Horrors is the worst genocide ever seen.  He even saved some of the babies body parts.  If this country can't stop murderers like this, then we had better be prepared for destruction from God, because God is angry!

[Rubystars]

I've heard stories about abortionists playing with the bodies of dead babies (like holding them up like dolls and making them "talk") and all kinds of other crazy crap that goes on in your regular run of the mill abortion clinic.

[nessuno]

And the deliberation goes on.

[NoMosqueHere]

Here's a good rule of thumb: never use a black doctor.  99/100 times they will be morons or criminals.

[JTFenthusiast2]

I've heard stories about abortionists playing with the bodies of dead babies (like holding them up like dolls and making them "talk") and all kinds of other crazy crap that goes on in your regular run of the mill abortion clinic.

I've seen them when they've been spontaneously aborted by the mother through no one's fault.  I saw one 19 week old fetus and my Gd, it looked like something I won't say: totally unprepared for life, and unable to survive.  It lay in plastic terrine/basin in some room near the OR.  We were scolded by the head Syrian (& incompetent) resident/commendant, a true member of the SS if there ever was one, if we tried to look.  I have to say, there was something amazing and horrifying about this little premature infant.  Anyway, then, 6-7 years ago, there was no hope for a anything less than 24 weeks.  When I asked someone what happens to these premies, they stated essentially they are left in the room to die.  They couldn't be given to the mother because I think it would terrify her.  I cannot relate to giving abortions because I have never done one or assisted in one, but I can say that I could have stared at the premie all night long.  I cant explain it, it's almost like being mesmerized by something that you ought to turn away from, I think, but you dont.  I mean I dont know if I could have literally looked at it all night, but it, I guess, was something, most people never see.

[Rubystars]

JTFE, I understand not traumatizing the mother but I think if a baby has no chance at life they could at least give an extreme premie some kind of comfort care (wrapping them in a blanket so they're not cold, for example. From what you say, a sentient human baby that was too unformed to be compatible with life was treated as a medical specimen rather than a terminally ill patient.

I used to have a niche interest in deformities so I saw lots of pictures that can't be unseen, so I think I have a good idea of what the baby might've looked like.

[JTFenthusiast2]

JTFE, I understand not traumatizing the mother but I think if a baby has no chance at life they could at least give an extreme premie some kind of comfort care (wrapping them in a blanket so they're not cold, for example. From what you say, a sentient human baby that was too unformed to be compatible with life was treated as a medical specimen rather than a terminally ill patient.

I used to have a niche interest in deformities so I saw lots of pictures that can't be unseen, so I think I have a good idea of what the baby might've looked like.

Yes that's sort of true, but I think the concern is that the premie would suffocate them or that their paper like bodies couldn't tolerate the weight.  I have no idea what the humane way would be to resolve this issue, but I agree in a plastic bin in a cornerroom is not it

[Zelhar]

Yes that's sort of true, but I think the concern is that the premie would suffocate them or that their paper like bodies couldn't tolerate the weight.  I have no idea what the humane way would be to resolve this issue, but I agree in a plastic bin in a cornerroom is not it

Euthanasia would be better.

[Dr. Dan]

It breaks heart gets crushed to imagine terrible humanities like abortions.

If you have kids and babies of your own or once you have one, hug and kiss them ALL THE TIME.

[Rubystars]

Yes that's sort of true, but I think the concern is that the premie would suffocate them or that their paper like bodies couldn't tolerate the weight.  I have no idea what the humane way would be to resolve this issue, but I agree in a plastic bin in a cornerroom is not it

Good points.

[mord]

 These are not Drs as my Dr. says Drs save lives, these are abortionists

[Binyamin Yisrael]

Euthanasia would be better.

It's against Halacha to shorten life even by a few seconds.

I also think it's cruelty to animals to do so to an animal. Large animals should only be killed for food or to save a life of a human. What I said doesn't apply to animals like rats, mice, and insects.

[Zelhar]

It's against Halacha to shorten life even by a few seconds.

I also think it's cruelty to animals to do so to an animal. Large animals should only be killed for food or to save a life of a human. What I said doesn't apply to animals like rats, mice, and insects.

Then I am against halacha.

[muman613]

Then I am against halacha.

It is true that a human should never be killed on purpose, even to alleviate pain.

I know I cannot change your opinion on this issue but consider the reasons given. I am dealing with this question at this very moment, not concerning humans, but my pet cat is currently dying. I have severe issues with 'putting the cat down' as it is said. Almost all of my pets have died of natural causes.

I have reproduced a J-Law article below which deals with the halachic questions:

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/right.html

The Right to Die: A Halachic Approach
Rabbi Yitzchok Breitowitz

American society has increasingly come to recognize what is known as the "right-to-die". In the famous Cruzan case, the Supreme Court of the United States in a 5-4 decision ruled that a patient who has clearly communicated his or her wishes regarding the use of life support machinery or the provision of hydration and nutrition has a constitutional right to have those wishes respected even if the patient is not suffering from a terminal condition. Jack Kevorkian, the infamous doctor of death, is running around the country assisting persons in killing themselves. Derek Humphrey's work FINAL EXIT was a best seller. A referendum in the state of Washington that would formally legitimate physician-assisted suicides was supported by almost 50% of the electorate and many feel that within a few years, such measures will be routinely approved. Under a recently-enacted federal law, persons entering hospitals or nursing homes must be informed of their rights to execute living wills or other advance directives spelling out ahead of time that certain medical interventions should not be employed. What does the Jewish tradition say about these matters? Does halacha take positions on advance directives? Does Judaism recognize a right to die?

Briefly stated, the Jewish tradition rests on a number of assumptions:

1. The preservation of life [pikuach nefesh] is considered to be of paramount importance, surpassing virtually all of the other commandments of the Torah. One may and must violate Yom Kippur or the Sabbath, eat non-kosher food, etc. if there is the slightest chance that human life may be preserved or prolonged.

2. The quality and/or duration of the life being saved is irrelevant. Life is of infinite, not relative, value and mathematically, any fraction of infinity must also be infinite. Once life is assigned a relative value - once we start making judgments as to which lives are worth living and which are not, once we assign value to people because of what they can do instead of what they are we have demeaned the intrinsic sanctity of existence for all human beings and have embarked on a dangerous exercise of line drawing. What about the elderly, what about the severely retarded, what about the handicapped: are they any less human because their productivity is impaired?

[The reader may legitimately ask what use is the life of a Karen Ann Quinlan? What use is the life of a person who is comatose and incapable of any cognitive brain functioning? What use is an anencephalic child? Keep in mind, however, that a Jew believes in a soul and that the body is simply a receptacle for the person's true spiritual essence. Souls come to earth for many, many purposes and we don't know why G-d sends souls into this life. Sometimes it could be that the spiritual destiny of a soul is to elicit certain responses on our part. The soul exists to teach us certain things about the meaning of life and love and how we relate to the dignity of a human being and when we fail to respond with sensitivity and respect for the unconditional value of that person's life, we kill off a small part of ourselves as well.]

3. Judaism rejects the notion of unlimited personal autonomy. Our bodies and our lives are not our own to do with as we will. They are temporary bailments given to us by G-d for a specific purpose and duration which only G-d can terminate and just as we don't have the moral right to kill or harm others, we don't have the moral right to kill, maim, or injure ourselves or to authorize other persons to do those things to us.

4. Judaism rejects the notion that the utilization of advanced technology to sustain life is somehow an interference with G-d's will. Technology and scientific advancement are not man-made but are in themselves gifts of Divine revelation to be used for the benefit of mankind. Thus, the dichotomy that some religions posit between "natural" and "unnatural" ways of treating illness is essentially foreign to Jewish thinking.

These four factors standing alone would surely argue against any "right to die" and would support an absolute affirmative obligation to prolong life at all costs, regardless of pain and indeed regardless of the patient's expressed wishes. This is in the fact the position associated with the eminent Talmudist and bioethicist, Rabbi Dr. J. David Bleich of Yeshiva University. It is, however, a decidedly minority position.

Halacha, as all well-developed ethical systems, cannot and does not focus on a single moral value to the exclusion of others but seeks to balance, accommodate, and prioritize a multiplicity of ethical concerns. Just as there is a mitzva (a Divine commandment) to prolong life, there is a mitzva to alleviate pain and suffering. But what happens if one value can be achieved only at the expense of another? Consider the patient suffering terminal cancer whose life could be prolonged for no more than six months but only at the cost of painful, debilitating chemotherapy or the elderly stroke victim who falls prey to pneumonia which will kill him swiftly and relatively-painlessly overnight but is easily treatable by antibiotics. May the patient decline the chemotherapy or the antibiotics to achieve a quicker, less painful death or is the mitzva of pikuach nefesh (preservation of life) so absolute that it admits of no exceptions?

Most rabbinical authorities (Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, for one) have sanctioned the patient's right to decline treatment provided a number of very specific conditions were met. First, the patient must be in a terminal condition - that is, whether the treatment is employed or not, the patient is not expected to live beyond a year. Second, the patient suffers unbearable pain and suffering. Third, the patient has indicated that he or she desires not to be treated. In the event the patient is incompetent or unable to communicate his decision, next-of-kin may make such a decision based exclusively on what they feel the patient would have wanted (Note: This is not based on what they would have wanted if they would have been the patient but rather what this particular patient would actually desire). Fourth, assuming the above three conditions are met, the patient may decline surgery, chemotherapy, and painful invasive treatments but may not decline food, water, or oxygen (which are the normal sustainers of life, the withdrawal of which may be tantamount to murder or suicide). Antibiotics may also fall under the "food" category because they are generally a noninvasive, nonpainful procedure. There is also some question whether tube feeding falls in the category of "food" or in the category of "surgery". Most decisors would place it in the former but emphasize that even if the patient is halachically-obligated to take artificial nutrition, he should not be force-fed or physically-restrained. In no event may the patient or the physician take any affirmative step that would hasten death. Active euthanasia, regardless of motive, is morally and halachically equivalent to murder. On the other hand, halacha would view both the goals and methods of hospice in a very sympathetic light.

Judaism thus attempts to strike a balance between the great mitzva of prolonging life and the recognition that life may become unbearably difficult and painful. The living will, however, which attempts to spell out in advance which treatments should be employed and which should not is too blunt of an instrument to accurately mirror the necessary value judgments. The basis for all of these decisions is the pain and suffering the patient feels at the time of the illness and this can simply not be predicted in advance. Conditions that may seem intolerable to us when we are 35-40 may be quite adequate when we reach 85 and we realize that the alternative would be death. Keep in mind too that many patients such as those with advanced Alzheimer's or in comas may in fact not be suffering though their existence is undoubtedly a hardship to their families. Moreover, it is almost impossible to spell out all contingencies in advance, making living wills incomplete almost by definition.

Far preferable to the living will is the durable power of attorney (often called a health-care proxy) which simply specifies a person-family member, friend, clergyman - empowered to make health care decisions on the patient's behalf in the event he or she is incapacitated. The power may in addition specify that all decisions shall be made in accordance with Jewish law and in consultation with a designated clergyman of the patient's choice. Sample forms - labelled somewhat inaccurately as "Halachic Living Wills" -have been prepared by Agudath Israel of America, a national organization headquartered in New York. This document insures that decisions will be made consistently with the moral and religious beliefs that the patient holds dear. Obviously, one should discuss these delicate matters ahead of time both with family members and spiritual advisers.

Incapacitation and terminal illness are tragic situations. Let us remember, however, that we come from a tradition that has grappled with these questions and that approaches these issues with sensitivity, compassion, and understanding. Hopefully, none of us will ever be faced with these problems but if we are, let us turn to our tradition for guidance and support.

[muman613]

My step-father is also dealing with these questions. He has been suffering with cancer which until last year seemed to be in remission... Now it is spreading and his doctors are suggesting he may not have much longer to live. He tried once the chemo therapy they wanted him to take and this therapy actually caused him to become worse. He has chosen to never again do the chemo therapy and thus he wants his final years to have a quality of life... I support his decision because I don't believe most chemotherapies are actually helping anyone (aside from the doctors and pharma companies)...

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

It's against Halacha to shorten life even by a few seconds.

I also think it's cruelty to animals to do so to an animal. Large animals should only be killed for food or to save a life of a human. What I said doesn't apply to animals like rats, mice, and insects.

I do not think adult humans should be put out of their misery, because if they are to suffer that is Gd's will, but...  what about a kid or a baby, they have done nothing wrong.

Ok, so I hit a deer in my car and break its spine, that deer could live for days in agonizing pain. That deer has no free will or committed any sins, so why should it be left to suffer?

[muman613]

I do not think adult humans should be put out of their misery, because if they are to suffer that is Gd's will, but...  what about a kid or a baby, they have done nothing wrong.

Ok, so I hit a deer in my car and break its spine, that deer could live for days in agonizing pain. That deer has no free will or committed any sins, so why should it be left to suffer?

What if the day after you terminate the baby the cure is discovered? Do you know when cures will be discovered? What constitutes 'suffering'? Without a firm definition of that almost anything can be considered 'suffering'.

Regarding the deer question... I would say that in that case it may be permitted (due to the imperative to not cause pain to an animal).

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

What if the day after you terminate the baby the cure is discovered? Do you know when cures will be discovered? What constitutes 'suffering'? Without a firm definition of that almost anything can be considered 'suffering'.

Regarding the deer question... I would say that in that case it may be permitted (due to the imperative to not cause pain to an animal).

About the baby, I was thinking about JTFE2 seeing a baby left alone to die. That is horrible, looking at a baby gasping for air and life... I would kill the baby, if they're not going to try to save it!

[JTFenthusiast2]

Euthanasia would be better.

Zelhar,

You have very good insights.  I dont know.  Honestly. I'm not even sure how much pain they feel, if any.  Advocates against circumcision often cite the newborn males's pain, but they truth is that the baby stops crying after less than 5 minutes at the longest.  Giving them sugar water with your finger in their mouths also helps relieve the pain quickly

[Zelhar]

I think there should be an option to black out a dying patient so he could be unconscious at his last days. What do you guys think, is that permissible according to halacha ?

I am pretty sure it is.

[cjd]

Here's a good rule of thumb: never use a black doctor.  99/100 times they will be morons or criminals.

Normally I would agree with that rule of thumb 100% however G-d does things at times to open peoples eyes a bit to the world around them... Back at the end of last October after not being in a doctors office for well over 20 years I ended up in the emergency room after taking a nasty fall off of a step ladder... Besides a few broken bones I needed 7 stitches in my scalp... The skin was more torn than cut which made the wound very hard to fix in a way that would not leave a nasty scar... To be honest at the time due to the other injuries it was my least concern... Long story short a young black female doctor did the repair on the cut and took so much time and trouble to get the thing closed evenly that today it is hardly noticeable... She was at the end of a 12 hour day and actually stayed past her appointed time to fix me up... It's not fool a proof situation however there are a few black doctors that are very good at what they do and actually take the responsibility of being a doctor seriously.

[nessuno]

She was an excellent doctor.  I would love to work with her or have her care for me.  You can't say that about all the doctors.  From my experience, skin color is not always the best indicator of caring, knowledge or skill set.

[Binyamin Yisrael]

I do not think adult humans should be put out of their misery, because if they are to suffer that is Gd's will, but...  what about a kid or a baby, they have done nothing wrong.

Ok, so I hit a deer in my car and break its spine, that deer could live for days in agonizing pain. That deer has no free will or committed any sins, so why should it be left to suffer?

You're a Noahide. You can kill it and then eat it. Jews can't eat a deer unless it is shechted.

If Non-Jews are going to hunt, they should eat the animal, not just for a "sport".

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

You're a Noahide. You can kill it and then eat it. Jews can't eat a deer unless it is shechted.

If Non-Jews are going to hunt, they should eat the animal, not just for a "sport".

What ever Ben Rosenberg...

[Lisa]

What ever Ben Rosenberg...

Keep it civil you two.