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Offline Israel Chai

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b
« on: May 12, 2013, 12:18:36 AM »
1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:

2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

3 For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; your lips have spoken lies, your tongue hath muttered perverseness.

4 None calleth for justice, nor any pleadeth for truth: they trust in vanity, and speak lies; they conceive mischief, and bring forth iniquity.

5 They hatch cockatrice' eggs, and weave the spider's web: he that eateth of their eggs dieth, and that which is crushed breaketh out into a viper.

6 Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall they cover themselves with their works: their works are works of iniquity, and the act of violence is in their hands.

7 Their feet run to evil, and they make haste to shed innocent blood: their thoughts are thoughts of iniquity; wasting and destruction are in their paths.

8 The way of peace they know not; and there is no judgment in their goings: they have made them crooked paths: whosoever goeth therein shall not know peace.

9 Therefore is judgment far from us, neither doth justice overtake us: we wait for light, but behold obscurity; for brightness, but we walk in darkness.

10 We grope for the wall like the blind, and we grope as if we had no eyes: we stumble at noonday as in the night; we are in desolate places as dead men.

11 We roar all like bears, and mourn sore like doves: we look for judgment, but there is none; for salvation, but it is far off from us.

12 For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them;

13 In transgressing and lying against the LORD, and departing away from our God, speaking oppression and revolt, conceiving and uttering from the heart words of falsehood.

14 And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter.

15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

18 According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence.

19 So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.

20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: b
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 01:44:59 PM »
Welcome back, but I don't understand your post?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline TruthSpreader

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Re: b
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2013, 02:17:36 PM »
Those are all quotes from the Bible.

But welcome back anyway.
Dan - Stay calm and be brave in order to judge correctly and make the right decision

Offline muman613

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Re: b
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2013, 08:25:05 PM »
Isaiah Chapter 59:1-21 to be exact http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1059.htm .

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline angryChineseKahanist

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Re: c
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2013, 08:46:14 PM »
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Welcome back.
U+262d=U+5350=U+9774

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: b
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2013, 09:10:15 PM »
But, what does it have to with...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: b
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 10:17:24 PM »
1. America and/or Israel still has a chance if it asks for G-d's help.
2. If you're not really on his side, by doing and being what he expects, you're just like the people you need help against, and that aren't asking G-d to do good.
3. You do the same types of sins your leaders do, you just have less influence... 4...
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: b
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 10:32:24 PM »
1. America and/or Israel still has a chance if it asks for G-d's help.
2. If you're not really on his side, by doing and being what he expects, you're just like the people you need help against, and that aren't asking G-d to do good.
3. You do the same types of sins your leaders do, you just have less influence... 4...
Okay.  :clap: One thing I have a problem with is, it's almost impossible for a Jew or for a gentile  to convert and follow the law...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: b
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 10:56:48 PM »
Okay.  :clap: One thing I have a problem with is, it's almost impossible for a Jew or for a gentile  to convert and follow the law...

Murder/violence, perversion and wickedness, lies and saying evil things. That's not just Jewish law. Either way, 5-6 show that you're making webs to use as clothes to hide that you know it's wrong, and that trying to do something else you think it good doesn't get rid of it or make you good. There is good and bad, Jew or not.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: b
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2013, 11:13:34 PM »
Murder/violence, perversion and wickedness, lies and saying evil things. That's not just Jewish law. Either way, 5-6 show that you're making webs to use as clothes to hide that you know it's wrong, and that trying to do something else you think it good doesn't get rid of it or make you good. There is good and bad, Jew or not.
What is your point?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: b
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 12:21:29 AM »
The "siding with a Romney", approach, though rational, won't help; America needs a moral make-over before its political one will matter. Roar like a bear or mourn like a dove, but you're still an unjust person asking for your imperfect system, which doesn't excuse your immorality no matter how good it is, to deliver perfect justice.

You're not going to see punishment for islam without punishment for America. The proven way of turning people to morality is catastrophe, so if you can figure out a better way, you saved lives. There's still a prayer, that's in the shema, and it goes along the lines of; the fool will not understand this; when evil and evil people abound, the Lord has allowed it to destroy them all at once. What separates them is here; be on the right side of history.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: b
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 12:46:21 AM »
The "siding with a Romney", approach, though rational, won't help; America needs a moral make-over before its political one will matter. Roar like a bear or mourn like a dove, but you're still an unjust person asking for your imperfect system, which doesn't excuse your immorality no matter how good it is, to deliver perfect justice.

You're not going to see punishment for islam without punishment for America. The proven way of turning people to morality is catastrophe, so if you can figure out a better way, you saved lives. There's still a prayer, that's in the shema, and it goes along the lines of; the fool will not understand this; when evil and evil people abound, the Lord has allowed it to destroy them all at once. What separates them is here; be on the right side of history.

Shalom 112,

Very, very good thoughts.

I believe the portion of the Shabbat davening you refer to is not Shema itself, but a part of the prayers before Shema... Particularly Tehillim Perek 92...

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16313


1. A song with musical accompaniment for the Sabbath day.
2. It is good to give thanks to the Lord, and to sing to Your name, O Most High.
3. To declare in the morning Your kindness and Your faith at night.
4. Upon a ten-stringed harp and upon a psaltery, with speech upon a harp.
5. For You have made me happy O Lord, with Your work; with the work of Your hands I shall exult.
6. How great are Your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep.
7. A boorish man does not know; neither does a fool understand this.
8. When the wicked flourish like grass, and all workers of violence blossom, only to be destroyed to eternity.
9. But You remain on high forever, O Lord.
10. For behold Your enemies, O Lord, for behold Your enemies will perish; all workers of violence will scatter.
11. But You have raised my horn like that of a wild ox; to soak me with fresh oil.
12. My eye has gazed upon those who stare at me [with envy]; when evildoers rise up against me, my ears hear [them].
13. The righteous one flourishes like the palm; as a cedar in Lebanon he grows.
14. Planted in the house of the Lord, in the courts of our God they will flourish.
15. They will yet grow in old age; fat and fresh will they be.
16. To declare that the Lord is upright, my rock in Whom there is no injustice.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: b
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 01:23:34 AM »
Shalom 112,

Very, very good thoughts.

I believe the portion of the Shabbat davening you refer to is not Shema itself, but a part of the prayers before Shema... Particularly Tehillim Perek 92...

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/16313


1. A song with musical accompaniment for the Sabbath day.
2. It is good to give thanks to the Lord, and to sing to Your name, O Most High.
3. To declare in the morning Your kindness and Your faith at night.
4. Upon a ten-stringed harp and upon a psaltery, with speech upon a harp.
5. For You have made me happy O Lord, with Your work; with the work of Your hands I shall exult.
6. How great are Your works, O Lord! Your thoughts are very deep.
7. A boorish man does not know; neither does a fool understand this.
8. When the wicked flourish like grass, and all workers of violence blossom, only to be destroyed to eternity.
9. But You remain on high forever, O Lord.
10. For behold Your enemies, O Lord, for behold Your enemies will perish; all workers of violence will scatter.
11. But You have raised my horn like that of a wild ox; to soak me with fresh oil.
12. My eye has gazed upon those who stare at me [with envy]; when evildoers rise up against me, my ears hear [them].
13. The righteous one flourishes like the palm; as a cedar in Lebanon he grows.
14. Planted in the house of the Lord, in the courts of our God they will flourish.
15. They will yet grow in old age; fat and fresh will they be.
16. To declare that the Lord is upright, my rock in Whom there is no injustice.

I may have had a slightly different translation, but that explanation I put there is what immediately popped into my head.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: b
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 01:33:11 AM »
You may find this article interesting. I believe it concerns the issue you are addressing...



http://www.kby.org/english/torat-yavneh/view.asp?id=4042

Between the Righteous and the Wicked
By: Hamashgiach Harav Avraham Rivlin, shlita

In the concluding prophecy of the Prophets, Malachi reproaches the nation for speaking rudely and harshly about Hashem: "Your words have become harsh against Me, says Hashem, but you say: How have we spoken against You?" (Malachi 3:13) Malachi answers the nations question,[1] " How have we spoken against You?" with the reply: "You have said: It is useless to serve G-d! What gain is there for us that we have kept His watch, and that we walk submissively before Hashem, Master of Legions? So now we praise the wicked. Evildoers are built up; they have even tested G-d and escaped." (3:14-15) The nation mocks the way Hashem runs the world, and argues that, Heaven forbid, there is no Judge and no judgment. The righteous suffer and the evil benefit. The prophet promises that in the future the situation will change: "Then you will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves G-d and one who does not serve Him." (3:18)

Metzudat David comments: "Even though now you see the transgressors existing in peace as opposed to those who worship G-d, behold you will then return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked." The Malbim also explains the verb, "you will return": "When you return to this world by being resurrected, you will see the difference between the righteous and the wicked." The difference will not only be understood, but also self-evident. Normally, the Divine intent is that the tzaddik does not receive his reward in this world, so that he will be able to benefit from spiritual reward that has greater meaning for him in the world to come. For his few sins he prefers to be judged in this world.

Every favor in this world comes at the expense of the reward in the world to come (Shemot Rabbah 52:3):

Once there was a student of Rabbi Shimon b. Yochai who left Israel and became rich. The students would see him and become jealous and also wish to leave Israel. Rabbi Shimon b. Yochai took them to a valley, and prayed and said: "Valley, valley, be filled with golden dinarim. It started pouring golden coins before them. He said to them: If it is gold you seek, here is gold; only know that anyone who takes now, he is taking his place in the world to come. The reward of Torah is only in the world to come being. This [is what it says]: "She joyfully awaits the last day."

Later on, the Midrash brings a story about Rabbi Shimon b. Chalafta who had nothing to support himself with, so he prayed and received from heaven a valuable gem. His wife refused to accept it saying to him:" "Do you wish that your table [in the world to come] will be lacking and the table of your friend be full?" This is as we learned in Avot (2:21), "Know that reward of the righteous is in the future to come." Also, "According to the suffering is the reward" (Avot 5:3); "and since the reward is calculated according to the suffering, then the main point of worship is through suffering"[2]

However for the wicked the account is reversed. After all, even they have a few mitzvot, They therefore receive their reward in this world. The wicked ascribe more importance to this world and prefer it over the spiritual world to come. Therefore, they receive a material reward in this world. After they have received their reward in this world, they arrive on the Day of Judgment without any mitzvot and only their sins remain so that in the next world they will be punished in gehenom.

This is probably the message of psalm 92 in Tehillim:

A psalm, a song for the Sabbath day. It is good to thank Hashem ... How great are Your deeds, Hashem; exceedingly profound are Your thoughts. A boor cannot know, nor can a fool understand this: When the wicked bloom like grass and all the doers of iniquity blossom, it is to destroy them till eternity. But You remain exalted forever, Hashem. For Behold Your enemies, O Hashem, for behold, Your enemies shall perish ... A righteous man will flourish like a date palm.

What is the content of the chapter and what is its connection to the Shabbat day? Moreover, if Hashem's creations are so great and His thought so deep, it is only fair that even the wisest sages of the world will not know them and comprehend them, so what does "A boor cannot know, nor can a fool understand this" come to teach us? They don't understand a lot of simpler things![3]

Rav Hutner explains that the primary intention of the Psalm is the problem of the righteous suffering while the wicked benefit; a problem that in this world provides the main obstacle towards worshipping Hashem and believing in Him. This is only when living the present in this world, but when the world to come is taken into account, then the greatest of difficulties becomes the simplest of understandings, since it can be seen that: "When the wicked bloom like grass," the wicked were created only "to destroy them till eternity." The Shabbat day is a form of the next world; it has an inner virtue that allows all of Hashem's actions to appear just. There is a Judge and there is judgment, and the wicked receives his punishment. Therefore, "It is good to thank Hashem," and through this Hashem's wonderful Guidance of the world can be understood.

When "you will return and see the difference between the righteous and the wicked," the nation will understand the nonsense that it pronounced: "It is useless to serve G-d! What gain is there for us that we have kept His watch." In the future to come everyone will see that "the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the wicked people and all the evildoers will be like straw; and that coming day will burn them up ... But a sun of righteousness will shine for you who fear My Name, with healing it its rays." Then everyone will know "For My Name is great amongst the nations."

[1] Malachi's style of prophecy is known for containing rhetorical questions. He introduces most of his messages in a Q&A style.

[2] Harav Chaim Shmuelevitz, Sichot Mussar, 5733, article 10: "According to the suffering is the reward" page 33. See also the following article "The Perfection of Deeds," page 57.

[3] Between an assumption and a conclusion there has to be some sort of proportion. It can't be said that someone is not as righteous as Moshe, instead he is very corrupt. This is what the Gemara deduces about Shmuel: "His sons did not follow in his footsteps – In his footsteps they did not follow, yet they also did not sin" (Shabbat 51a). If they had sinned, the Torah would not have mentioned that his sons had not followed in his footsteps.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14