Author Topic: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?  (Read 57742 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #150 on: July 17, 2013, 08:31:51 PM »
I'm thankful for your advice but I was just curious as "online conversions" seem to be on the rise which to me seems a bit dubious.It trivialises the process.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 09:03:43 PM by rafeli18 »

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #151 on: July 17, 2013, 10:07:23 PM »
I'm thankful for your advice but I was just curious as "online conversions" seem to be on the rise which to me seems a bit dubious.It trivialises the process.

I have never heard of online conversions...
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #153 on: July 17, 2013, 11:05:39 PM »
Seems like the online conversion is under the "reform" movement. Such that even the Masorti/Conversatives would not even such a convert...let alone Orthodox.

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #154 on: July 17, 2013, 11:12:13 PM »
Seems like the online conversion is under the "reform" movement. Such that even the Masorti/Conversatives would not even such a convert...let alone Orthodox.

Thus a no go area. To be honest it seems like a bit of a con. Don't you think? I emailed them a few weeks ago and they claimed I could convert within a few weeks or even a fortnight. :laugh:

Online ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4964
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #155 on: July 17, 2013, 11:21:20 PM »
Body odour is far more tolerable. :)
I've read about online conversions. Are they recognised as being legitimate?
Absolutely not.
Such conversions are fraudulent.

Online ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4964
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2013, 11:28:11 PM »
Actually the guy that runs that site is a Conservative and does YouTube videos, but it says they also offer Reform conversions if desired.  Notice that they DON'T offer Orthodox.  That says it all right there.
I couldn't have said it better.
It is a total farce.

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #157 on: July 17, 2013, 11:33:49 PM »
I couldn't have said it better.
It is a total farce.

People fall for anything
"Cough"Obama supporters

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2013, 11:35:25 PM »
Actually the guy that runs that site is a Conservative and does YouTube videos, but it says they also offer Reform conversions if desired.  Notice that they DON'T offer Orthodox.  That says it all right there.

Though i hear people do this as a loophole

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2013, 12:05:45 AM »
Basically...

Yes some people resort to these type of fake conversions. Some people just don't know any better. They really want to be Jewish and the first shul they find is a reform or conservative. They go to a few lessons etc..and then convert. But years later this brings much pain, when their children (who grow up thinking they are Jewish) want to get married or move to Israel or become frum and study at a yeshiva etc. Suddenly, their entire world collapses when they learn "your mother did not do a real conversion, you are not Jewish".

So all these reform, conservatives and charlatans like Asher Meza of "bejewish.org" and others (who I can name privately) are actually doing a lot more harm than good.
Some have good intentions while others know what they are doing fooling people and do it for the money or for the attention.

Real conversion is very very hard! It may take a year, a year and a half in not more. Real rabbis will not allow anyone to just convert. It will also require money. Moving to a community, paying your conversion teachers, paying the conversion application fee, paying for the mikvah etc..
Even after one coverts, one may always get people who forget that they need to be welcoming and will always make rude remarks about "converts". When you meet someone new and they know you converted, the first thing they want to know is "so, did you convert to get married?" or they will try to quiz you on your knowledge. Others will always try to correct you when you say something or do something Jewish. (like a blessing etc)

The point is, this is a hard road. It's not all open doors. It will have a lot of doors closing in front of you- but if you have faith in Hashem, you will find that the right doors will open for you. This is never like when people "convert" to some xstian religion and everyone is loving and welcoming. You will find that Torah Jews will always be welcoming. Because of the law to love the convert who converted (note, it is convert who converted, not gentile who converted. Since gerim are as if they had always had a Jewish soul). In fact, to be a convert who converted means that the person always had a potential neshama inside. Others even think that the souls of ALL Jews, even those who would eventually convert, were at Mt Sinai as well. So Torah Jews who know the commandment to love the gerim will be open and welcoming. And pray to Hashem that you find such people. But be prepared for the few rotten apples who try to put you down. Ignore them. Remember that everything is from Hashem and people are just messengers. Also note, that after conversion, no one is ever allowed to remind you of when you were not Jewish. Furthermore, no one should ever embarrass you either. Sadly, I have heard of such cases. It is better to be informed and ready than taken by surprise later on...or sugar coat it.

I must also warn you. In Israel, conversions done by reform or conservatives have to be legally accepted by the state but are NOT accepted by the Israeli religious system. Meaning that if you convert in your home country and live a year in a Jewish community (unless you have the right of return through your father and can immigrate now) the religious courts would not be able to recognize you. But the state would. Which essentially means nothing other than have an ID that says you're Jewish. Not because one is, but because the government is forced to recognize it- yet having no halachic standing. However, when it comes to Orthodox conversion across the world, the state of Israel will only recognize the Orthodox Batei Din that the Israeli rabbinical court choose to recognize. This means that not just any orthodox rabbis can actually do the conversion. It has to be someone on the actual list of authorized courts by the rabbinical court in Israel.
The reason for this is because...the Orthodox courts have no say in what reform or conservatives do...thus the state of Israel accepts them. But the Orthodox courts in Israel DO have a say in Orthodox courts around the globe; and the state will consider what the Orthodox courts rule in regards as who is a Jew (based on what Orthodox court one chose.
This is a very selective list. I would recommend you double check that your nearest Orthodox Beis Din will be accepted in Israel.

Also, a big controversy in Israel has been the religious courts voiding some conversions. This is only in cases when someone who converted comes back to a court for whatever reason, and under questions reveal that while they converted, they do not keep Shabbat or Niddah etc. Yes, there have been some cases of these people being told their conversions are revoked. If I am not mistaken, there was a similar case in the UK.

Basically, double check where you end up going.

I know that all these conservatives and reformists claim they can do easy and fast conversions. But that's just the problem. It's not fast or easy. To do a halachic conversion, one must do the process the Beis Din has set forth. Maybe it won't be overnight, but if one really has a Neshama inside, it can be done.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 12:18:05 AM by IsraeliHeart »

Online ChabadKahanist

  • Ultimate JTFer
  • *******
  • Posts: 4964
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2013, 12:57:35 AM »
He is in England & the only ones that do conversions are the London Beth Din which is recognized worldwide & in Israel by the rabbanut.
If he does it via the LBD absolutely no problem.
They are the gold standard when it comes to halachic conversions.

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2013, 01:27:29 AM »
He is in England & the only ones that do conversions are the London Beth Din which is recognized worldwide & in Israel by the rabbanut.
If he does it via the LBD absolutely no problem.
They are the gold standard when it comes to halachic conversions.

I agree.

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #162 on: July 18, 2013, 01:43:24 AM »
I'm aware of the potential consequences that could arise if I were to convert which is why I surely don't want to rush this through. Up until now all the books about judaism have been rather general paying no real amount of attention to the different strands if you like of Judaism. Therefore, would you advise any good books focusing on orthodox judaism?
Like I said converting to judaism is a tremendous effort which whilst having the potential to be fulfilling takes a lot of perseverance which I hope Hashem will give me.
I don't know I have a neshama inside of me but I still have a deep sense of connection with judaism and the jewish people that has to be said.

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #163 on: July 18, 2013, 02:03:45 AM »
I'm aware of the potential consequences that could arise if I were to convert which is why I surely don't want to rush this through. Up until now all the books about judaism have been rather general paying no real amount of attention to the different strands if you like of Judaism. Therefore, would you advise any good books focusing on orthodox judaism?
Like I said converting to judaism is a tremendous effort which whilst having the potential to be fulfilling takes a lot of perseverance which I hope Hashem will give me.
I don't know I have a neshama inside of me but I still have a deep sense of connection with judaism and the jewish people that has to be said.

The book of Rachel has a lot on converts. There's one book in particular about orthodox Judaism, lol. My personal favorite.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #164 on: July 18, 2013, 02:07:48 PM »
Praises to Hashem. I just received some good news. One of the jewish charities I applied for has offered me an interview! :dance:

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2013, 02:10:59 PM »
The book of Rachel has a lot on converts. There's one book in particular about orthodox Judaism, lol. My personal favorite.
Thanks, I'll look into it

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2013, 04:13:37 PM »
I'm aware of the potential consequences that could arise if I were to convert which is why I surely don't want to rush this through. Up until now all the books about judaism have been rather general paying no real amount of attention to the different strands if you like of Judaism. Therefore, would you advise any good books focusing on orthodox judaism?
Like I said converting to judaism is a tremendous effort which whilst having the potential to be fulfilling takes a lot of perseverance which I hope Hashem will give me.
I don't know I have a neshama inside of me but I still have a deep sense of connection with judaism and the jewish people that has to be said.

I dont know what you are asking. Do you want academic books on what the world thinks about Orthodox Judaism or do you want books about worshiping Hashem as an Orthodox Jew?

Also I don't know what LKZ is referring to the 'book of rachel'.... There is no such book in the canon of Jewish holy writing. I think he is referring to the 'Book of Ruth' which is indeed a Jewish holy book and it does discuss the merit of the great convert Ruth who is the great grandmother of King David and thus the matriarch of the Messianic line.

Jewish books are divided into different categories. Some discuss Halacha (Jewish law) others discuss issues of Faith and Trust (Emmunah and Bitachon) and still others are called Mussar (books which concentrate on refining character traits).

I have already provided two links to two Kosher Orthodox Book publishers...

ArtScroll @ http://www.artscroll.com
Feldheim @ http://www.feldheim.com/

Go to those sites and browse... You will find Orthodox Jewish books there.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2013, 04:19:30 PM »
Just looking at the Feldheim site I found the following which may be of interest to you:

Quote
The Choice To Be

http://www.feldheim.com/jewish-thought-outlook/basic-judaism/the-choice-to-be.html



Winner of the 2011 National Jewish Book Award for Modern Jewish Thought and Experience

A sweeping exploration of the intellectual issues raised by a Torah worldview.

Written for both the serious outsider looking in, as well as for orthodox individuals interested in the basic questions of faith raised by modern experience. Rabbi Kagan, principal of Midreshet Tehillah seminary, brings together years of experience in education with the perspective gained from his transition from a student of philosophy at Yale University to a student of Torah in Jerusalem . The result is a compelling formulation of ancient ideas in modern idiom, capable of meeting the unique challenges of our times.

Quote
The Way of G-d

http://www.feldheim.com/jewish-thought-outlook/basic-judaism/way-of-g-d-derech-hashem.html



This classic 18th century philosophical work by The Ramchal presents his keen understanding of the complex topic of God and His workings -Divine regulation of the world.

With marginal notes by Rabbi Yosef Begun. Vowelized, facing Hebrew and English texts.


Quote
Bible Basics

http://www.feldheim.com/jewish-thought-outlook/basic-judaism/bible-basics.html



An ideal introduction to the world of the Torah and our rich heritage. Contains maps, timelines, lists of mitzvos and character traits, genealogy, and an English translation of the first three Torah portions.

Quote
Why Be Jewish

http://www.feldheim.com/jewish-thought-outlook/basic-judaism/why-be-jewish.html



Why be Jewish? Strange question, perhaps. After all, if you’re Jewish … you’re Jewish.
And yet, the question is not as strange as it once was. An increasing number of people regard being Jewish – and certainly openly identifying as such – as a lifestyle choice rather than an unchangeable fact. Jewish identity no longer survives automatically. To stay Jewish today, one needs to find his or her own reasons why our heritage is important, inspirational, and relevant.

Punchy, upbeat, and full of memorable stories, anecdotes, and jokes, this book is the consummate guide to the beauty and importance of Judaism. It's a thought-provoking, inspiring read - ideal for Kiruv Rechokim, Kiruv Krovim, and Chizuk for anyone.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2013, 04:21:38 PM »
http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/2142/jewish/The-Book-of-Ruth.htm

Our sages note several interesting connections between the biblical Book of Ruth and the festival of Shavuot:

a) Shavuot falls in the harvest season, and is defined by the Torah as the culmination of a seven-week count beginning with the first barley harvest; the story of Ruth unfolds against the background of the barley harvest in ancient Judea, with the mitzvah of leket (allowing the poor to "glean" the stalks that fall to the ground during the harvest) playing a pivotal role in the narrative.

b) Ruth is the ancestress of King David; David was born on the festival of Shavuot of the year 2854 from creation (907 BCE), and passed away on the same date 70 years later.

c) Ruth is the paradigm of the ger tzeddek, the "righteous convert" who with great sacrifice forsakes her or his former life and identity to be born anew as a Jew; in essence, however, we are all gerei tzeddek, having undergone that very process ourselves on the first Shavuot of history when we assembled at the foot of Mount Sinai to be born anew as G-d's people.

The entire Book of Ruth is included in the Tikkun Leil Shavuot, the Torah digest studied on the night of the festival. In many communities it is publicly read in the course of the morning services on Shavuot day.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
Some good books I recommend from ArtScroll:

Quote
Gateways To Judaism

http://www.artscroll.com/Products/GTJH.html



Questions are the gateways to knowledge. After years of responding to the queries of people from all walks of life, Rabbi Becher saw the need for a single volume that would explain the fundamentals of Jewish living; the philosophy behind Jewish tradition, along with practical explanations of how Jews actually live. Gateway to Judaism offers an engaging insider's look at the mindset, values, and practices of Judaism in the 21st century.

Some of the fascinating questions which Rabbi Becher addresses in Gateway to Judaism are:

In the age of modern conveniences do we really need a Sabbath?

What is Judaism's view on death and the afterlife?

Why is Judaism so full of laws?

Why should I pray? Does God really want to hear my complaints?

Can Judaism enhance my marriage?

What does Judaism say about raising and educating children?

Isn't circumcision just an ancient rite of initiation? What relevance does it have today?

Why is Israel so central to Judaism? Does a religion need a land?

How can I conduct a Passover Seder if I can barely read Hebrew?

Each chapter includes:

* An overview and philosophical introduction to the topic, including rationale and sources
* Practical laws and instructions
* Extensive endnotes, which provide a valuable reference tool for scholars, teachers and students of Judaism
* Vignettes of the lively Levy family demonstrate how these topics apply in daily life

Rabbi Becher demonstrates the relevance of Judaism's timeless principles and its ability to transform and elevate the individual, the family and the community. His book opens the door for the newcomer to Judaism, while at the same time providing new insights into its significance for those already familiar with the joy of Jewish living.


Example Page


Quote
Understanding Judaism

http://www.artscroll.com/Products/UNDH.html




What does the Torah say that makes it relevant to today?

* How can we understand the mitzvos?

* Why should I believe?

* Why be Jewish?

* What does a Jew have to do?

* Is science an enemy of Judaism?

JEP -- the famous Jewish Education Program – has introduced thousands of young people to the exciting adventure of Torah Judaism. In addition to trips, Shabbatons, and rousing song and dance, it has presented the basics of Jewish history and belief in an attractive, compelling manner. This captivating book is the essence of the best of JEP. It distills the faith and experience of the Torah nation in a manner that makes it an excellent primer for adolescents and adults.

This book is filled with good question and better answers. Compiled by the leader of JEP, Rabbi Mordechai Katz, it contains the best teaching of Rabbi Katz and his colleagues, filtered though the wisdom of their spiritual leaders and relived by the reaction of tens of thousands of young people over many years.

Best of all, it’s a book that’s a pleasure to read, packed with stories and ideas. As an introduction to Judaism, Understanding Judaism is a great starting point. But it’s not just for beginners. The cast majority of yeshivah-trained observant Jews will find it filled with new information and approaches. And for anyone in a setting where he or she must answer questions about Judaism, it will be an invaluable aid.

Long awaited and much needed, this book is the answer to many a prayer.


Sample Page:


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

  • Master JTFer
  • ******
  • Posts: 1086
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2013, 09:02:41 PM »
"To be a Jew" is a good book too.

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2013, 09:50:05 PM »
I dont know what you are asking. Do you want academic books on what the world thinks about Orthodox Judaism or do you want books about worshiping Hashem as an Orthodox Jew?

Also I don't know what LKZ is referring to the 'book of rachel'.... There is no such book in the canon of Jewish holy writing. I think he is referring to the 'Book of Ruth' which is indeed a Jewish holy book and it does discuss the merit of the great convert Ruth who is the great grandmother of King David and thus the matriarch of the Messianic line.

Jewish books are divided into different categories. Some discuss Halacha (Jewish law) others discuss issues of Faith and Trust (Emmunah and Bitachon) and still others are called Mussar (books which concentrate on refining character traits).

I have already provided two links to two Kosher Orthodox Book publishers...

ArtScroll @ http://www.artscroll.com
Feldheim @ http://www.feldheim.com/

Go to those sites and browse... You will find Orthodox Jewish books there.

Thanks. There is a Book of Ann on amazon which to a degree does talk about conversions it seems but focuses on Jewish history so I think you'll probably right with regards to the Book of Ruth.
http://www.amazon.com/THE-BOOKS-OF-RACHEL-ebook/dp/B004ASN9L0
In answer to your question I was referring to books which reference worshiping Hashem as an orthodox jew which are the links you provided me.

Offline muman613

  • Platinum JTF Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 29958
  • All souls praise Hashem, Hallelukah!
    • muman613 Torah Wisdom
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #172 on: July 18, 2013, 10:11:34 PM »
That book of Rachel is a fictional account... I thought you were interested in non-fictional books about Jewish belief, tradition, and ritual.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline rafeli18

  • Full JTFer
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #173 on: July 18, 2013, 10:18:19 PM »
That book of Rachel is a fictional account... I thought you were interested in non-fictional books about Jewish belief, tradition, and ritual.

I am but this was the book that was recommended to me

Offline Israel Chai

  • Silver Star JTF Member
  • ********
  • Posts: 9732
  • 112
Re: Is a conversion appropriate in this circumstance?
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2013, 11:54:30 PM »
That book of Rachel is a fictional account... I thought you were interested in non-fictional books about Jewish belief, tradition, and ritual.

What do you mean the book of Rachel is fictional. Wasn't that David Ha Melech's grandmother?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge