Author Topic: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon  (Read 1347 times)

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Offline Yerusha

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It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« on: July 24, 2013, 04:08:46 PM »
Trayvon Martin had been expelled from his school and his home for being a thieving, druggy, combative, arms-dealing thug.

Ignoring the "J" word, this fellow Manning, who seems a goodish Black, quotes Torah in that Zimmerman was G-d's tool in "stoning the stubborn & rebellious son Trayvon to death"!

« Last Edit: July 24, 2013, 05:55:21 PM by Yerusha »

Offline muman613

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2013, 06:55:59 PM »
Yerusha,

Dr Manning does not know the Torah as well as we do. He has misrepresented what the Torah says concerning the
'Rebellious Son' commandment. The command is very specific concerning the conditions under which this can be executed. You know as well as I that according to our sages the command to stone the rebellious son was not actually carried out (Talmud Sanhedrin 71a).

Quote
http://www.aish.com/tp/i/oai/48966126.html

Ki Tetzei(Deuteronomy 21:10-25:19)
Fundamentals of Education

"When a man has a wayward, rebellious son, who does not obey his father and mother, they shall have him flogged. If he still does not listen to them... [the parents] must declare to the elders of his city, 'Our son is wayward and rebellious. He does not listen to us, and is an (exceptional) glutton and drunkard.' "(Deut. 21:18)

The Talmud (Sanhedrin 71a) says that there never was a rebellious son executed by the court. The topic was recorded in the Torah in order to learn and receive reward. But even if there never was a rebellious son, we can learn a great deal about raising children from a careful study of the Torah's description of the rebellious son. By studying the factors that help create a son so tainted that it is a kindness to kill him while he is still young and has not yet committed all the heinous crimes he otherwise would, we can learn to do the opposite with our own children.

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FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS

The Torah describes the rebellious son as not heeding the voice (kol) of his father and mother. Maharal points out that a kol denotes a voice or noise, something not necessarily intelligible. The rebellious son listens to his parents when their words make sense to him, but when their directives are not understood by him, he ignores them.

A child must be taught to rely on his parents' instructions and trust in their desire and ability to guide him on the proper path, even though he may not understand or grasp the wisdom of their directions. Though a parent should try to explain to the child the reasons for his directions and instructions, the child must be taught that in the end whether he understands or not, he must accept his parents' authority.

The Talmud learns from the phrase, "he does not listen to our voices," that to be deemed a rebellious son, both parents must have similar voices. Both parents' guidance must reflect the same values, and they must be consistent in their instruction. If the parents do not speak with one voice, their child cannot be deemed rebellious, because the blame for his rebellious behavior is not his alone.

Further, the parents must point at their son and say, "this son of ours." If the parents are blind and thus incapable of pointing him out, the son cannot be deemed a rebellious son. The requirement that the parents be able to see hints to the necessity of parents viewing each child as an individual, with unique gifts and needs, who must be educated according to his individual personality. If parents are blind to the child's individuality and educate him according to a predetermined formula, the child can also not be fully blamed.

Also it is clear that the parents must take the rebellious son before the Sanhedrin who is the one who executes the judgement, not just anyone...

Quote
http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5760/kiseitzei.html

Three Lessons To Be Learned From the Chapter of the Wayward Son

This week's parsha contains a Mitzvah that is one of the most difficult commandments to understand - the laws concerning the Wayward and Rebellious Son (Ben Sorer U'Moreh). This young boy does not listen to his parents. The Talmud [Sanhedrin 70a] describes the crimes involved. By today's standards, they do not sound like terrible crimes. The boy is somewhat gluttonous. He engages in small acts of thievery; he eats too much meat; he drinks too much wine.

The Torah tells us that the Ben Sorer U'Moreh [Wayward and Rebellious Son] is brought to Beis Din [Jewish Court]. If the evidence is upheld, he is put to death, based on the principle "better he should die innocent now, than have to be executed as a guilty party somewhere down the road."

The rules and circumstances for a Ben Sorer U'Moreh are so complex, specific and narrow that the Talmud in the eighth chapter of Sanhedrin says that there has never been and will never be a Ben Sorer U'Moreh. So then why, in fact, was the entire section written? The Talmud answers that the section was written in order that we might "expound it and receive reward". In other words, this section was written for the sake of the lessons inherent in it.

The lessons that the Torah wants us to derive from this section are lessons about raising children. The Torah wants to teach us how we should and should not raise a child. It is likely that some grievous mistakes were made in the raising of the Wayward and Rebellious son. The Torah is providing us with clues of what to do and what not to do when raising our sons and daughters.

The Reishis Chochma writes that it is easier to grow a grove of olive trees in the Galil [Galilee] (where the topography and climate were not conducive to olive growing) than it is to raise a single Jewish child properly - even in the Land of Israel (which due to its holiness is very conducive to raising children). We all understand and realize what a very difficult job raising children is.

I would like to point out three lessons in child raising which we can learn from the section of the Ben Sorer u'Moreh.

The Torah writes that the parents must come to Beis Din and testify that "Our child is a rebellious child. He does not listen to us. He is gluttonous." [Devorim 21:18]

Rabbi Mordechai Gifter notes that the language used by the Torah for not listening is "Eynenu shome'ah l'KOLEINU". (He does not listen to our VOICE.) We would have normally expected the expression "Eynenu shome'ah l'DVAREINU". (He does not listen to our WORDS.) In Hebrew, there is a vast difference between the connotation of the word DIBUR [word] and the connotation of the word KOL [voice]. The former means intelligible speech, the latter simply means a voice or a sound.


While I understand what he was trying to say, his ignorance of the Talmud and the letter of the law lead me to disregard his opinion...


And it is true that Martin was a thug, a thief, a drug-dealer and all the other stuff. But if his parents did not bring him to the Sanhedrin and declare him a 'rebellious son' he was not liable to the death according to this commandment.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2013, 07:02:04 PM »
Here are some excerpts from Talmud Sanhedrin 71a

HE DOES NOT BECOME A 'STUBBORN AND REBELLIOUS SON,' UNLESS HE EATS MEAT AND DRINKS WINE.

Our Rabbis taught: If he ate any food but meat, and drank any drink but wine, he does not become a stubborn and rebellious son' — unless he eats meat and drinks wine, for it is written. He is a glutton and a drunkard; and though there is no absolute proof, there is a suggestion for this, as it is written, Be not among the winebibbers, among gluttonous eaters of flesh.2  And it is also said, For the drunkard and glutton shall come to poverty; and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.3  R. Zera said: whoever sleeps in the Beth Hamidrash,4  his knowledge shall be reduced to tatters,5  for it is written, and drowsiness shall clothe a man with rags.

MISHNAH. IF HE STOLE OF HIS FATHER'S AND ATE IT IN HIS FATHER'S DOMAIN, OR OF STRANGERS AND ATE IT IN THE DOMAIN OF THE STRANGERS, OR OF STRANGERS AND ATE IN HIS FATHER'S DOMAIN, HE DOES NOT BECOME A 'STUBBORN AND REBELLIOUS SON,' — UNTIL HE STEALS OF HIS FATHER'S AND EATS IN THE DOMAIN OF STRANGERS. R. JOSE, SON OF R. JUDAH SAID: UNTIL HE STEALS OF HIS FATHER'S AND MOTHER'S.

GEMARA. IF HE STOLE OF HIS FATHER'S AND ATE IT IN HIS FATHER'S DOMAIN: though this is easily within his reach, he is afraid;6  OR OF STRANGERS AND ATE IT IN THE DOMAIN OF STRANGERS: though he is not afraid, yet it is not easily within his reach; how much more so IF HE STOLE OF STRANGERS AND ATE IN HIS FATHER'S DOMAIN, this not being easily attainable, and he, in addition, is afraid. UNTIL HE STEALS OF HIS FATHER'S AND EATS IT IN THE DOMAIN OF STRANGERS, which is easily within his reach and does not cause him fear.

R. JOSE, SON OF R. JUDAH SAID: UNTIL HE STEALS OF HIS FATHER'S AND MOTHER'S.

But how can his mother possess aught, seeing that whatever a woman acquires belongs to her husband? — R. Jose. son of R. Hanina answered: It means that he steals from a meal prepared for his father and mother. But did not R. Hanan b. Molad say in R. Huna's name: He is not liable unless he buys meat and wine cheaply and consumes them? — But say thus: from the money set aside for a meal for his father and mother.7  An alternative answer is this: a stranger had given her something and said to her, 'I stipulate that your husband shall have no rights therein.'

MISHNAH. IF HIS FATHER DESIRES [TO HAVE HIM PUNISHED], BUT NOT HIS MOTHER; OR THE REVERSE, HE IS NOT TREATED AS A 'STUBBORN A REBELLIOUS SON', UNLESS THEY BOTH DESIRE IT. R. JUDAH SAID: IF HIS MOTHER IS NOT FIT FOR HIS FATHER, HE DOES NOT BECOME A 'STUBBORN AND REBELLIOUS SON'.

GEMARA. What is meant by 'NOT FIT'? Shall we say that she is forbidden to him under penalty of extinction or capital punishment at the hand of Beth din;8  but after all, his father is his father, and his mother is his mother? — But he means not physically like his father. It has been taught likewise: R. Judah said: If his mother is not like his father in voice, appearance and stature, he does not become a rebellious son. Why so? — The Writ saith, he will not obey our voice,9  and since they must be alike in voice, they must be also in appearance and stature. With whom does the following Baraitha agree: There never has been a 'stubborn and rebellious son',10  and never will be. Why then was the law written? That you may study it and receive reward. — This agrees with R. Judah.11  Alternatively, you may say it will agree with R. Simeon. For it has been taught: R. Simeon said: Because one eats a tartemar of meat and drinks half a log of Italian wine, shall his father and mother have him stoned? But it never happened and never will happen. Why then was this law written? — That you may study it and receive reward. R. Jonathan said: 'I saw him12  and sat on his grave'.
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MISHNAH. A 'STUBBORN AND REBELLIOUS SON' IS TRIED ON ACCOUNT OF HIS ULTIMATE DESTINY: LET HIM DIE INNOCENT AND LET HIM NOT DIE GUILTY. FOR THE DEATH OF THE WICKED BENEFITS THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD;26  OF THE RIGHTEOUS, INJURES THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD. WINE AND SLEEP OF THE WICKED BENEFIT THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD;27  OF THE RIGHTEOUS, INJURE THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD.28  THE SCATTERING OF THE WICKED BENEFITS THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD;29  OF THE RIGHTEOUS, INJURES THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD. THE ASSEMBLING OF THE WICKED INJURES THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD; OF THE RIGHTEOUS, BENEFITS THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD. THE TRANQUILLITY OF THE WICKED INJURES THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD;30  OF THE RIGHTEOUS, BENEFITS THEMSELVES AND THE WORLD.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2013, 09:17:04 PM »
It's not part of the Noahide Laws, anyway, right? Why do pastors pick and choose from the mitzvot anyway? Don't they think Jesus "fulfilled them"?


Online Lisa

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2013, 09:26:11 PM »
Maybe it was his way of saying St. Skittles got what was coming to him. 

Offline Mishmaat

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2013, 09:40:05 PM »
Maybe it was his way of saying St. Skittles got what was coming to him.

St. Skittles! :::D I love that!

Soon Obama will implement a Federal holiday for the "NO_LIMIT_NIGGA."

Offline Rubystars

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 02:35:06 AM »
Maybe it was his way of saying St. Skittles got what was coming to him.

I agree with you and I think that's a great nickname.  :::D

Offline IsraelForever

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 03:23:36 AM »
What a great video!  I guess at the time of this sermon, Manning didn't know about all the jewelry the cops found in Trayvon's bag.  But at least Manning had the guts to say the truth about the kind of scum Trayvon really was and how disgusting it is how Black people have turned him into such a kind and wonderful young man.  Bravo to Manning!

Offline Debbie Shafer

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 08:29:17 AM »
I didn't realize Trayvon was kicked out of school and his mother asked his father to take him and control him.  At least Manning tells the truth about the Black Plight in America, drugs, gangs, and welfare.  There will never be changes with leaders like Obama.

Offline Yerusha

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 07:12:21 PM »
Trayvon was high on the recreational drug "Lean", made from Skittles, watermelon drink and Robitussin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_drank


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 07:30:03 PM »
I guess it's because they pronounce "drink" incorrectly.


Offline Mishmaat

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #11 on: July 25, 2013, 07:50:12 PM »
Trayvon was high on the recreational drug "Lean", made from Skittles, watermelon drink and Robitussin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_drank

I've discussed this extensively. St. Skittles didn't walk two miles in the rain because he had a sugar rush.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2013, 09:20:26 PM »
Does anyone speak ape that can translate that garbage?


Offline Mishmaat

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2013, 10:05:54 PM »
Does anyone speak ape that can translate that garbage?

With the help of Urban Dictionary I think I can provide an accurate translation. The comments in brackets are obviously my own and are designed to provide clarification or to elaborate on any word that may be confusing to the non-Ebonics speaker.

Here goes:

Mackenzie: Hell no. You could just use Robitussin and soda to make some really great lean.
Trayvon: Codeine is a higher dose of DXM.
Mackenzie: I understand, but you need a prescription to get it.
Trayvon: That's why I asked if you know someone that has it [a prescription for codeine or codeine itself], but I might stop drinking [the codeine drug concoction].
Mackenzie: Oh! I doubt it! Why?
Trayvon: It gets you too high and you can get the same vibe [physical/mental alteration or high] off of lean.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2013, 11:40:21 PM »
What is DXM? Is that a real medical term for the substance or some Ebonics abbreviation?


Offline Mishmaat

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #15 on: July 25, 2013, 11:46:31 PM »
What is DXM? Is that a real medical term for the substance or some Ebonics abbreviation?

It's an abbreviation for dextromethorphan.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #16 on: July 25, 2013, 11:52:06 PM »
It's an abbreviation for dextromethorphan.


Real English or in "ghetto" culture?


Offline Mishmaat

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« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 12:28:22 AM by Mishmaat »

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 11:54:30 PM »
With the help of Urban Dictionary I think I can provide an accurate translation. The comments in brackets are obviously my own and are designed to provide clarification or to elaborate on any word that may be confusing to the non-Ebonics speaker.

Here goes:

Mackenzie: Hell no. You could just use Robitussin and soda to make some really great lean.
Trayvon: Codeine is a higher dose of DXM.
Mackenzie: I understand, but you need a prescription to get it.
Trayvon: That's why I asked if you know someone that has it [a prescription for codeine or codeine itself], but I might stop drinking [the codeine drug concoction].
Mackenzie: Oh! I doubt it! Why?
Trayvon: It gets you too high and you can get the same vibe [physical/mental alteration or high] off of lean.


I don't know how they can understand that jibberish. People who learn how to speak a real language such as English know how to speak properly with proper grammar. Yet we don't know how to speak like them. The real language is more complex. I guess they have their own sub-language that infects their way of speech so that they can't learn to speak properly and people who speak real English are not infected so we can't learn how to speak that garbage. We can imitate it but it wouldn't be exactly the same.


Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2013, 12:11:19 AM »
Pastor Manning 20 years ago when he was a cop.   :::D 

 

 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2013, 12:18:47 AM »
I saw a black police officer arresting a black criminal in Brooklyn. The criminal asked the police officer why he was being arrested. It sounded like he said it was for trespassing or shoplifting. He was wearing some basketball shirt. Maybe he stole it. It was near the Barclay Center where the Nets now play. Of course the criminal was using the F word. Then the black police officer got in in the back of the police car and shoved the criminal. The white police officer drove the car. I guess they need to use black police officers so they can overpower them. I don't know how a white police officer could deal with such a criminal or speak his language. I guess the black police officer shoved the criminal to intimidate and control him. If it was a white police officer, they would say it's racist violence. Maybe such a black police officer could overpower Trayvon without a gun. But a white police officer would have to act like Zimmerman.


Offline IsraelForever

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Re: It takes a Black to expose a Black: Manning on Trayvon
« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2013, 12:36:53 AM »
Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael
.... If it was a white police officer, they would say it's racist violence...

Positively!

Quote from: Binyamin Yisrael
Maybe such a black police officer could overpower Trayvon without a gun. But a white police officer would have to act like Zimmerman.

Very true.