Author Topic: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei  (Read 13697 times)

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Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2013, 08:58:09 PM »
http://dafyomi.co.il/shabbos/insites/sh-dt-061.htm

2) SUMMARY: "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A" AND "MUMCHEH GAVRA"
The Gemara discusses what makes a Kamei'a (an amulet for healing) into a Kamei'a Mumcheh (one that has been proven to be effective), which one may wear in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos regardless of the level of expertise of the doctor who wrote it. The Gemara also discusses what makes a doctor into a Rofeh Mumcheh (who has been proven to be an expert healer with his amulets), such that any amulet written by him may be worn in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos. In order to better understand the Gemara, it is important to review several rules:
(a) There are three factors involved with giving a doctor or a Kamei'a the status of a Mumcheh:
1. the Kamei'a that was used
2. the doctor who wrote it
3. the person who was healed by it.
The Rishonim also mention a fourth factor -- which sickness the Kamei'a was intended to cure. However, this is not really an additional factor, but it is included in the first (the Kamei'a that was used). The practice was to write a different type of Kamei'a for each type of sickness, and to write the same type of Kamei'a for the same sickness. Therefore, for which sickness the Kamei'a was written is really the same as which Kamei'a was written (#1 above).
(b) The success of the cure may depend on the Mazal of the doctor, the Mazal of the sick person, or both. However, when a Kamei'a is proven effective, its success is not attributed to its Mazal but rather to the wisdom that went into writing it. The effectiveness of the doctor, on the other hand, can depend on his Mazal (RASHI 61b, DH Mazlei, and RAN there, who writes this more clearly). Thus, a doctor who is a "Mumcheh" may have propitious Mazal, while the "Mumcheh" status of the Kamei'a is determined solely by the skill and expertise involved in writing it.
(c) A Kamei'a becomes Mumcheh by successfully curing an illness three times, even if it was written by one doctor, or if it healed the same patient three times. We do not attribute the success of a Kamei'a that worked three times to the patient's Mazal or to the doctor's Mazal. Thus, if a doctor wrote one Kamei'a three times (and it was successful every time), the doctor does not become Mumcheh. The reason for this is either because the success of the Kamei'a depends on wisdom, and not on Mazal (Rashi DH Mazlei, and RAN), or because the Kamei'a is the main factor in improving the health of the sick person, since without the Kamei'a the doctor has no chance of curing the illness (RITVA). (Rashi at the beginning of the Sugya seems to contradict this when he writes that the doctor does become Mumcheh if he wrote the successful Kamei'a three times; see Insights to Shabbos 61:4.)
3) "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A"
OPINIONS: What is a Kamei'a Mumcheh? What makes it Mumcheh?
(a) RASHI says that the Mumcheh Kamei'a refers to the charm (that is, the specific script) that is written inside the amulet. Once that charm becomes Muchzak (it has worked three times consecutively), it may be written by any doctor to cure that illness, and it may be worn outside on Shabbos. According to Rashi, in order for a doctor to become Mumcheh, he must write three different successful charms. Once he has written three different successful charms, he may now write any charm, and one may wear it outside on Shabbos.
(b) TOSFOS and ROSH (6:8) disagree and say that just because a doctor knows how to write three charms is no proof that every charm he writes from then on will be successful. They therefore say that what Rashi describes as making the Kamei'a Mumcheh is actually what makes the doctor Mumcheh. A doctor who is Mumcheh, then, is one who has written one charm successfully three times. Mumcheh Kamei'a, according to Tosfos and Rosh, means that the very same amulet (that is, the actual piece of parchment itself) worked three times. Such an amulet may be worn by anyone on Shabbos. According to Tosfos, if the same text of that amulet is re-written and another amulet is made, even though it contains the same text as the successful amulet, it is considered an entirely new and different amulet.



Shulchan Aruch on Amulets: http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html

It is forbidden to consult astrologers or rely on omens, but it is permissible to prefer or avoid particular days of the week or month for certain activities or to make a decision based on the outcome of an event (179:1-4). It is forbidden to use incantations to control animals or for medicinal purposes except to avoid danger (179:5-11), but it is permissible to use amulets for protection against injury or sickness (179:12). It is permissible to consult the spirits of the dead (179:13-14) but dealings with demons should generally be avoided (179:16,19). It is forbidden to practice deceptive magic or to learn from a magician (179:15,19). On the use of Divine names for supernatural purposes see 246:21.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2013, 09:02:32 PM »
Obviously Rav Schach stood against amulets and segulahs, but this is expected:

http://www.torah.org/learning/ravfrand/5770/shoftim.html

Rav Schach wrote a letter in which he was very critical of the practice he observed in many to seek out the future through palm reading or "kesubah reading" or the like. All such people who advertised such services, he insisted, were charlatans and frauds who were trying to make a quick and dishonest dollar. He forbade relying on the amulets and advice of people who obviously do not have the knowledge that they are allegedly sharing with people. Despite the fact that some practitioners had long white beards and appeared religious, Rav Schach emphasized that a person may not consult with or rely on the advice of such people, citing the pasuk in this week's parsha "You shall be Tamim with the L-rd your G-d" and referencing the Ramban's comments on the pasuk. Rav Schach concluded his letter: "We must only rely on Hashem, everything else is hevel [vanity].
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2013, 09:08:04 PM »
On a personal note I will explain how my understanding of these things are:

1) I believe that there is a spiritual world which parallels our physical world.
2) I believe that there are forces which Hashem places in this world which have effects on the world (angels and demons) for instance the Yetzer Hara, the Satan, the angel of death, etc.
3) I believe that there are holy people who have achieved a higher spiritual level, these are the tzadikim, who have learned a lot of Torah and through their life experience can share some of the merit in the next world with their students.
4) I believe that a Jew who keeps the commandments gains special merit, and although the reward is in the next world, their life in this world is blessed.

The commands of Mezuzah, Tefillin, Tzit-Tzits are all physical actions involving ritual objects (the parchment in the mezuzah, the tefillin, and the strings of the tzit-tzits). Our belief in fulfilling them bring the blessings promised by Hashem.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2013, 09:13:05 PM »
Tag,

I listen to Rabbis and try to reconcile what they say without saying one is right and the other is wrong.

In many cases there can be two ways to look at an issue. Things are not always black and white, and the Talmud is rife full of disagreements where it is  agreed that both opinions are correct.

I do not believe everything every Rabbi says as being 100% truth... But I do believe that when you listen to enough Rabbis you can learn what the general consensus is. I believe that there is a lot of truth in 99% of what the Rabbis I post say.


 ??? ??? ???  ???


 Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?
 You also make one premise and then afterwards claim the opposite of it. This isn't the first time and I am not the first person you have done this to.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2013, 09:21:58 PM »
??? ??? ???  ???


 Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?

Tag,

You are making this personal when it really doesnt have to be. I did not attack you (and if it appears that I did I apologize). I try to find a way to understand why you enjoy creating division among Jews. I am trying to get you to be a little more accepting of Jews who don't do things the way you do.

I have listened to the Rabbis you post and have pointed out the very same thing I am saying now, this is not new.

Do you wish to continue in personal attacks? I don't... I am trying to address the issues which you bring up. It is no problem to me that Rabbi Mizrahi doesn't approve of Breslev, that is his perogative. But he does believe in the same Zohar that Breslev believes, and the same Talmud, and the same Tanach...

What is it you think I didn't read? Do you want to quiz me?

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2013, 09:25:05 PM »
Rabbi Mizrachi gives a talk on Rabbi Nachman of Breslev on his Yartzeit:

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2013, 09:30:22 PM »
Old lecture (that you just posted, its from 2011 as the title says, I didn't listen to it, but I do remember someone cutting and posting it when some time ago Rabbi Bar-Hayim's video was copied by Rabbi Mizrachi and promoted, some people who didn't like it and didn't like what Rabbi Mizrachi was saying and responding on some things (some actions by/from) Breslov  anyway, then cut that video form some time ago and posted it as "rebuttle". As if it really stands either way because he was speaking of some actions made by them. Anyway anything someone says their later is more in line to what they hold by now then their former. No?
  Anyway doesn't matter, I was just addressing your criteria to listening to someone or not and I said why you don't apply it to yourself and if you do, then now why don't you accept that he went against them and accept it 100% without any questions as you suggested I do about the gilgulim.



.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2013, 09:30:53 PM »
Anyway nice trance Breslov has, you know the songs from it.

.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2013, 09:32:01 PM »
??? ??? ???  ???


 Riiiiiight. Yet when you started it, you had completely different criteria for me. Dude can you read? seriously?
 You also make one premise and then afterwards claim the opposite of it. This isn't the first time and I am not the first person you have done this to.
To me it seems you guy are arguing over an agreement... And that is the thing that matters the least in this conversation. Come on guys, no low blows...


You're both saying you can listen to someone, and agree and disagree...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 09:44:41 PM by אפרים בן נח »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2013, 09:47:11 PM »
Tag,

The main issue Rabbis have concerning Breslev are A) Messichism (believing Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach) B) The pilgrimage to his Kever (grave) on Rosh Hashanah. If I understand correctly the only issue Rabbis have is whether a Jew is permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael in order to go to Uman to celebrate with the Breslevers... I am not sure of what other issues there may be with Breslev. If you would like to discuss them, let us do so...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2013, 09:48:43 PM »
Tag,

The main issue Rabbis have concerning Breslev are A) Messichism (believing Rabbi Nachman was Moshiach) B) The pilgrimage to his Kever (grave) on Rosh Hashanah. If I understand correctly the only issue Rabbis have is whether a Jew is permitted to leave Eretz Yisrael in order to go to Uman to celebrate with the Breslevers... I am not sure of what other issues there may be with Breslev. If you would like to discuss them, let us do so...

 Again not the point of me bringing it up. I was just addressing..., w/e forget it.
 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #36 on: November 13, 2013, 09:50:24 PM »



You're both saying you can listen to someone, and agree and disagree...

 I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."

 As I was trying to say from the very beginning.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2013, 09:52:59 PM »
I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."

 As I was trying to say from the very beginning.

I apologize... I am all for listening to differing opinions and evaluating the ideas relative to your own personal understanding.

I will try harder to avoid saying things which can be taken personally.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2013, 10:31:06 PM »
I was saying that at first, I was attacked and said not to believe this way, then I pointed out that he also listened to him and at the same time didn't and doesn't accept some of the things said by him on Breslov and other issues. And THEN he changed to saying as well that we can " listen to someone, and agree and disagree..."

 As I was trying to say from the very beginning.
Tag, you insulted Breslov, right off the bat. Soo, I kinda understand why Muman became defensive...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2013, 10:15:18 AM »
Tag, you insulted Breslov, right off the bat. Soo, I kinda understand why Muman became defensive...

 Muman- accepted.

 Ephraim- No I didn't. I said what the Rabbi said, that is all and used it as an example of where and when not everything is or will be accepted by all including Muman on that issue.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2013, 04:12:35 PM »
I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2013, 04:54:27 PM »
I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.

I never said that one should trust in amulets. I said that the Talmud most certainly discusses the amulet and whether it is permissible to move them on Shabbat.

Obviously everything in the Jewish world-view revolves around Hashems Hashgacha Pratis (Divine providence) and his involvement with the world. But the way he works in this world is through actions which we do.

I bring the Mezuzah which is a physical box containing the portions also contained in the Tefillin. Through our observing this commandment, Hashem promises us the merit of being protected from evil. So in this way it is similar to an amulet. But as you point out it is not any power of the amulet which is involved, but rather the fact that we did as Hashem commanded.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2013, 04:57:19 PM »
Webshas points of the following portions of the Talmud which discuss amulets:

http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/amulets.htm

Amulets and Medicinal Chants

Amulets
Importance of distinguishing the targeted species in the amulet: Pesachim 111b
Specification of the location of the creature: Pesachim 111b
Format of writing an amulet [Galturei]: R. Shabbat 103b "Keivan"
Saving them from a fire on Shabbat: Shabbat 115b
The Surface on which amulets are written: Shabbat 78b, Gittin 22a


Medicinal Chants
For "Kafa" [Rashi: Poison, Rashbam: Worms] acquired from vegetables: Pesachim 116a
For sudden, inexplicable terror: Megillah 3a
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2013, 05:03:32 PM »
I studied this, and I can't find any Torah sources to back up amulets. If your emunah is in an amulet and not Hashem, it is deep idolatry. If you have emunah that Hashem will work through the amulet, then you have no faith in Hashem when you take it off, and it is idolatry like xtianity.
So, would the Bronze snake in the desert be an idol?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2013, 05:04:08 PM »
The core Jewish belief is in the Unity and Uniqueness of Hashem, there is no other power in all of the universe besides him, and he is the source of all energy used by every creation. No amulet or ritual object has any power on it's own, but rather when we  utilize it in the manner which Hashem commanded, we are exhibiting our faith/emmunah and trust/bitachon in his divine providence.

Do not think I am arguing that amulets are magical and have any power. I am arguing that the Talmud and other Jewish sources include the use of amulets to strengthen our faith, as do our tzit-tzits which we see with our eyes, so that we remember the commandments. So too the mezuzah which we see on the door, and know that this is a Jewish home.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2013, 05:04:43 PM »
So, would the Bronze snake in the desert be an idol?

NO, I explained this a year ago when we discussed that portion.

The snake was not an idol, when they looked up at the snake they were reminded of Hashem... But eventually the people did view it as an idol...

Quote
Danger Of Wrong-Doing

It is at this point that the danger of real wrongdoing exists. A person who has realized that the laws of nature unto themselves are insufficient to explain the world, has tapped into this more spiritual world and come upon a melange of all sorts of "spiritual beings." If he understands they are agents of God, this becomes a true spiritual experience. But if he mistakenly understands them to be independent of God, then he engages in idol-worship! These forces then become a source for evil when they are viewed as an alternative power to God.

Perhaps the best illustration for this dual approach is inherent in the story of the "copper snake":

And the people spoke ill of God and Moses ... and God sent against them the burning serpents and they bit the people, and many people died ... and God told Moses: "Shape a snake [out of copper] and place it on a stick, and whoever was bitten will look at it and live." Moses then made a snake of copper and put it on a stick, and if a person was bitten by a snake, he would look at the copper snake and live. (Numbers 21:4-9)

The Mishna (Rosh Hashana 29a) puts this into perspective:

Did the serpent heal or kill? Rather, when Israel looked up heavenward, and dedicated their hearts to their Heavenly Father [they would be healed], and when not, they would waste away.

Here we have both facets of the supernatural: At first, the miraculous nature of the snake caused people to realize that the plague was God's doing, and they worked on bettering themselves. In this vein it was a positive spiritual experience.

But later things disintegrated and instead of the snake being a means to recognizing God, it became a focal point in itself, i.e. the wonderful healing snake ― separate from God's power. That is idolatry. For this reason, many hundreds of years later, King Hezekiah had this copper snake destroyed because people turned it into an idol!

I suppose this goes along with what I was saying in my previous post... That the object has no power of it's own, only to bring us to realize that Hashem is the only power.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2013, 07:29:19 PM »
NO, I explained this a year ago when we discussed that portion.

The snake was not an idol, when they looked up at the snake they were reminded of Hashem... But eventually the people did view it as an idol...

I suppose this goes along with what I was saying in my previous post... That the object has no power of it's own, only to bring us to realize that Hashem is the only power.
Excellent, thank you! I don't know that much about amulets, but don't they have certain names of HaShem in them, or are blessed by a Tzadik? Wouldn't this be the same as the Copper snake blessed by HaShem?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2013, 08:11:12 PM »
http://dafyomi.co.il/shabbos/insites/sh-dt-061.htm

2) SUMMARY: "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A" AND "MUMCHEH GAVRA"
The Gemara discusses what makes a Kamei'a (an amulet for healing) into a Kamei'a Mumcheh (one that has been proven to be effective), which one may wear in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos regardless of the level of expertise of the doctor who wrote it. The Gemara also discusses what makes a doctor into a Rofeh Mumcheh (who has been proven to be an expert healer with his amulets), such that any amulet written by him may be worn in Reshus ha'Rabim on Shabbos. In order to better understand the Gemara, it is important to review several rules:
(a) There are three factors involved with giving a doctor or a Kamei'a the status of a Mumcheh:
1. the Kamei'a that was used
2. the doctor who wrote it
3. the person who was healed by it.
The Rishonim also mention a fourth factor -- which sickness the Kamei'a was intended to cure. However, this is not really an additional factor, but it is included in the first (the Kamei'a that was used). The practice was to write a different type of Kamei'a for each type of sickness, and to write the same type of Kamei'a for the same sickness. Therefore, for which sickness the Kamei'a was written is really the same as which Kamei'a was written (#1 above).
(b) The success of the cure may depend on the Mazal of the doctor, the Mazal of the sick person, or both. However, when a Kamei'a is proven effective, its success is not attributed to its Mazal but rather to the wisdom that went into writing it. The effectiveness of the doctor, on the other hand, can depend on his Mazal (RASHI 61b, DH Mazlei, and RAN there, who writes this more clearly). Thus, a doctor who is a "Mumcheh" may have propitious Mazal, while the "Mumcheh" status of the Kamei'a is determined solely by the skill and expertise involved in writing it.
(c) A Kamei'a becomes Mumcheh by successfully curing an illness three times, even if it was written by one doctor, or if it healed the same patient three times. We do not attribute the success of a Kamei'a that worked three times to the patient's Mazal or to the doctor's Mazal. Thus, if a doctor wrote one Kamei'a three times (and it was successful every time), the doctor does not become Mumcheh. The reason for this is either because the success of the Kamei'a depends on wisdom, and not on Mazal (Rashi DH Mazlei, and RAN), or because the Kamei'a is the main factor in improving the health of the sick person, since without the Kamei'a the doctor has no chance of curing the illness (RITVA). (Rashi at the beginning of the Sugya seems to contradict this when he writes that the doctor does become Mumcheh if he wrote the successful Kamei'a three times; see Insights to Shabbos 61:4.)
3) "MUMCHEH KAMEI'A"
OPINIONS: What is a Kamei'a Mumcheh? What makes it Mumcheh?
(a) RASHI says that the Mumcheh Kamei'a refers to the charm (that is, the specific script) that is written inside the amulet. Once that charm becomes Muchzak (it has worked three times consecutively), it may be written by any doctor to cure that illness, and it may be worn outside on Shabbos. According to Rashi, in order for a doctor to become Mumcheh, he must write three different successful charms. Once he has written three different successful charms, he may now write any charm, and one may wear it outside on Shabbos.
(b) TOSFOS and ROSH (6:8) disagree and say that just because a doctor knows how to write three charms is no proof that every charm he writes from then on will be successful. They therefore say that what Rashi describes as making the Kamei'a Mumcheh is actually what makes the doctor Mumcheh. A doctor who is Mumcheh, then, is one who has written one charm successfully three times. Mumcheh Kamei'a, according to Tosfos and Rosh, means that the very same amulet (that is, the actual piece of parchment itself) worked three times. Such an amulet may be worn by anyone on Shabbos. According to Tosfos, if the same text of that amulet is re-written and another amulet is made, even though it contains the same text as the successful amulet, it is considered an entirely new and different amulet.



Shulchan Aruch on Amulets: http://www.torah.org/advanced/shulchan-aruch/classes/chapter12.html

It is forbidden to consult astrologers or rely on omens, but it is permissible to prefer or avoid particular days of the week or month for certain activities or to make a decision based on the outcome of an event (179:1-4). It is forbidden to use incantations to control animals or for medicinal purposes except to avoid danger (179:5-11), but it is permissible to use amulets for protection against injury or sickness (179:12). It is permissible to consult the spirits of the dead (179:13-14) but dealings with demons should generally be avoided (179:16,19). It is forbidden to practice deceptive magic or to learn from a magician (179:15,19). On the use of Divine names for supernatural purposes see 246:21.
Sorry, I just read the first article. Where does the second one come from?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline muman613

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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Video Study for Parsha Vayetzei
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2013, 08:50:04 PM »
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.