Author Topic: What if your entire family is leftist?  (Read 2975 times)

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Offline Rational Jew

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What if your entire family is leftist?
« on: November 17, 2013, 01:46:22 AM »
Have anyone else here experienced this when you are a right-wing Jew or Gentile but your entire family fanatically supports the left and even attack you for not being a hardcore leftist? I'm not even talking about distant relatives, but parents and siblings.

I get attacked to this day for calling Islam a vile Nazi religion founded by a pedophile mass murderer. My brother is extremely pro-Muslim and keeps calling me "racist" every time I speak against Islam. My mother is ashamed to be Jewish and even goes so far by justifying Arab Muslim terrorism against Israel by saying that "Jews took Arab land". She keeps telling me how great it was to live in the soviet union. She also tells me that Stalin was right for attacking Israel because Israelis allegedly turn their backs against USSR. But when I call communists "pigs" she yells at me as if I murdered someone God forbid. I cannot even criticize communists, can you imagine that?

I know it's kind of inappropriate to talk about my family members in such manner, but what else should I do? I need an advice.
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Offline muman613

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2013, 01:59:56 AM »
My condolences, brother... I cannot say that my situation is similar...

My mother was a long time democrat and even considered herself liberal. But BARUCH HASHEM at this point in time she has shifted entirely to the right. When I spoke with mom last week she was on the same page with me on virtually everything, I mean everything. She knows Obama is a muslim, that he hates Israel, that Obamacare is a train-wreck and a destroyer of the middle-class health care.

I do thank Hashem that at this time in her life that she realizes the error of the liberal ways. My father, may he have an aliyah, was a life-long conservative republican. That I 'returned' to the right made my father proud before he passed away. He told me how proud he was of my religious teshuva, and my political 'return' (I started out on the right in my early voting days)...

I can only pray for you and your family. May Hashem open their eyes to the errors of their ways before it is too late. Maybe it took the death of my only brother on 9/11 to make my mother (and myself actually) see the liberal's for what they are.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2013, 02:29:56 AM »
I feel your pain. You're lucky they're not in the UN.
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Offline Lisa

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2013, 03:23:52 AM »
I totally feel for you.  Rest assured, you're not alone in this.

Offline Zelhar

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2013, 09:59:35 AM »
I don't talk much politics with my family, they are hopeless.

Offline Rubystars

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2013, 10:54:43 AM »
I have one family member that's leftist and I just hope she won't end up going to hell over it. I don't care so much about her political views as what effect it may have on her when she has to answer to God for them.

Offline cjd

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2013, 12:32:49 PM »
I don't talk much politics with my family, they are hopeless.
Have mercy :::D With the administration we have in the in the White House now it's easy to rile liberals into a foaming lather... I would just toss out a few comments and allow the liberals to eat their hearts out  8)
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Offline Zelhar

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2013, 01:39:13 PM »
Have mercy :::D With the administration we have in the in the White House now it's easy to rile liberals into a foaming lather... I would just toss out a few comments and allow the liberals to eat their hearts out  8)
But we are Israelis.

Offline Lisa

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2013, 02:51:54 PM »
Have mercy :::D With the administration we have in the in the White House now it's easy to rile liberals into a foaming lather... I would just toss out a few comments and allow the liberals to eat their hearts out  8)

What kind of comments should we toss out, CJD?

Offline cjd

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2013, 04:04:01 PM »
What kind of comments should we toss out, CJD?
Well in the setting of our political situation here at home comments about shvartza Care and the situations in Iran and Egypt... This past week our so called president really stuck his neck out reversing his own policy by asking medical insurers to go against the law and continue to insure people they should no longer carry... The political climate coming out of the White House is clearly something that would have had a Republican president on the carpet of impeachment... The fact that a liberal black president is doing things like this has given him a pass with the main stream media... Even staunch supporters are struggling with this sort of  policy as we speak... As for our members in Israel the picture is no better... Deep down supporters of liberal policy know they are on a downward path and in their heart don't want to be told about it by people they perceive as conservatives... No doubt it will cause some family disharmony but in my opinion in the long run it's worth it.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2013, 04:17:38 PM »
Have anyone else here experienced this when you are a right-wing Jew or Gentile but your entire family fanatically supports the left and even attack you for not being a hardcore leftist? I'm not even talking about distant relatives, but parents and siblings.

I get attacked to this day for calling Islam a vile Nazi religion founded by a pedophile mass murderer. My brother is extremely pro-Muslim and keeps calling me "racist" every time I speak against Islam. My mother is ashamed to be Jewish and even goes so far by justifying Arab Muslim terrorism against Israel by saying that "Jews took Arab land". She keeps telling me how great it was to live in the soviet union. She also tells me that Stalin was right for attacking Israel because Israelis allegedly turn their backs against USSR. But when I call communists "pigs" she yells at me as if I murdered someone God forbid. I cannot even criticize communists, can you imagine that?

I know it's kind of inappropriate to talk about my family members in such manner, but what else should I do? I need an advice.
I think they are just very typical American Jews.

Offline fibrogirl

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 09:26:50 PM »
Out of curiousity - how old are you?
You don't have to tell me your exact age, just approxiamte. I'm wondering if you are in your 20's or older, and if being more conservative than parents is a trend.

Alright your username is a bit strong...I hate the word "fags" and have nothing against homosexuals. Maybe you are coming on a bit strong with them with other subjects . It's possible to critisise different groups using intelligent language rather than calling them "pigs", although I think the Communists were worse than pigs. Pigs don't hurt people. You've got a right to critisise what you like, just maybe it can be done in a different way.

I guess your mother didn't have the wonderful pleasure of living under Communists. My family did and they really hate them. There are whole stories on life under Communist Romania that I can link to. That will put your Mother off.

Really you have my sympathy. I joined this forum because nearly every single person I know here in Tel-Aviv is a lefty regarding the Arabs and I felt alone.
Feel free to let of steam here.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2013, 04:34:47 AM »
Out of curiousity - how old are you?
You don't have to tell me your exact age, just approxiamte. I'm wondering if you are in your 20's or older, and if being more conservative than parents is a trend.

Alright your username is a bit strong...I hate the word "fags" and have nothing against homosexuals. Maybe you are coming on a bit strong with them with other subjects . It's possible to critisise different groups using intelligent language rather than calling them "pigs", although I think the Communists were worse than pigs. Pigs don't hurt people. You've got a right to critisise what you like, just maybe it can be done in a different way.

I guess your mother didn't have the wonderful pleasure of living under Communists. My family did and they really hate them. There are whole stories on life under Communist Romania that I can link to. That will put your Mother off.

Really you have my sympathy. I joined this forum because nearly every single person I know here in Tel-Aviv is a lefty regarding the Arabs and I felt alone.
Feel free to let of steam here.

Living in Tel Aviv is heaven for the body, but it's a lot tougher than the soul. Everyone go easy on fibro here.

To start with, is your acceptance of homosexuality based on Torah, or just your opinion? If you had a son who became one, I can understand immediately you'll say, "yay!", as many, sadly, do, but if your husband left you for a man, would that make you feel bad? I'm not saying in the sense that he becomes unloyal, just in the sense that he loves you, but completely looses his attraction to you for being a woman and now wants men. Is that something you would praise? Speak carefully on this...
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Offline fibrogirl

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2013, 01:39:18 PM »
Living in Tel Aviv is heaven for the body, but it's a lot tougher than the soul. Everyone go easy on fibro here.

To start with, is your acceptance of homosexuality based on Torah, or just your opinion? If you had a son who became one, I can understand immediately you'll say, "yay!", as many, sadly, do, but if your husband left you for a man, would that make you feel bad? I'm not saying in the sense that he becomes unloyal, just in the sense that he loves you, but completely looses his attraction to you for being a woman and now wants men. Is that something you would praise? Speak carefully on this...


My acceptance on homosexuality is based on my opinion.
I don't think that the Torah prohibition intended to condemn homosexuality for the people who were born that way.

I think the Torah condemnation of homosexual is intended for:
a)Some straight men that commit homosexual acts
b)Preventing society ever becoming like Anciant Greece was.
c) Getting rid of paedophillia with boys


If I had a son who or a husband who became a homosexual, I would be extremely upset.

I don't live in Tel Aviv itself. I am in a neighbouring town, which is right on the border of Orthodox Bene Brak. 

Admittedly I don't like the modern obsession with homosexuality...But I really believe these people can not chose who they feel attracted to.
 
I didn't mean to  come off as cocky.
I really am sympathetic to OP because I have given up speaking politics with my family for the same reason.

What is are your views?
I mean would you just get rid of gay parades in Israel and gay stuff on TV, or would you actually arrest 2 adults for what they do at home in private.

Offline Irish Zionist

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 01:44:05 PM »

My acceptance on homosexuality is based on my opinion.
I don't think that the Torah prohibition intended to condemn homosexuality for the people who were born that way.

I think the Torah condemnation of homosexual is intended for:
a)Some straight men that commit homosexual acts
b)Preventing society ever becoming like Anciant Greece was.
c) Getting rid of paedophillia with boys


If I had a son who or a husband who became a homosexual, I would be extremely upset.

I don't live in Tel Aviv itself. I am in a neighbouring town, which is right on the border of Orthodox Bene Brak. 

Admittedly I don't like the modern obsession with homosexuality...But I really believe these people can not chose who they feel attracted to.
 
I didn't mean to  come off as cocky.
I really am sympathetic to OP because I have given up speaking politics with my family for the same reason.

What is are your views?
I mean would you just get rid of gay parades in Israel and gay stuff on TV, or would you actually arrest 2 adults for what they do at home in private.
Nobody is born gay!
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Offline fibrogirl

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2013, 02:25:27 PM »
I find it hard to imagine many people chosing to be gay. But I don't know...

There are these studies where they are starting to see the difference in brain scans between transexuals and ordinary people which are what persuaded me that homosexuality might be something someone is born with and can not change.
http://www.care2.com/causes/study-shows-transexuals-may-display-brain-differences.html



Offline Israel Chai

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2013, 04:08:31 PM »

My acceptance on homosexuality is based on my opinion.
I don't think that the Torah prohibition intended to condemn homosexuality for the people who were born that way.

I think the Torah condemnation of homosexual is intended for:
a)Some straight men that commit homosexual acts
b)Preventing society ever becoming like Anciant Greece was.
c) Getting rid of paedophillia with boys


If I had a son who or a husband who became a homosexual, I would be extremely upset.

I don't live in Tel Aviv itself. I am in a neighbouring town, which is right on the border of Orthodox Bene Brak. 

Admittedly I don't like the modern obsession with homosexuality...But I really believe these people can not chose who they feel attracted to.
 
I didn't mean to  come off as cocky.
I really am sympathetic to OP because I have given up speaking politics with my family for the same reason.

What is are your views?
I mean would you just get rid of gay parades in Israel and gay stuff on TV, or would you actually arrest 2 adults for what they do at home in private.

1. Nobody is born homosexual. The gay gene has been proven as junk science by every honest researcher, and, being related to a geneticist, I can provide you with hard facts on it. They are trying to use the brain now that this argument has failed, but unfortunately, they recently celebrated knowing .1% about the brain, which is a speculation that there is 99.9% left to know, so they know nothing. Angry and sad people display brain differences, but a girl's clothes on a baby boy do not alter the brain chemistry, and even if it did, the explanation is clearly not that they are born different, but that this behavior is affecting their mental state.

2. The Torah prohibition has many aspects, but another I learned last week was that it involves behaving like Egyptians. They would have sex with their mothers and the same sex because they were the ultimate self-centered society, and it doesn't take much to go out of your comfort zone, because you know how people like you will behave, so it doesn't require to give up too much of yourself to make a spiritual union, unlike with a stranger from the opposite sex, where you have to give up a lot of the things you are used to in order to make the relationship work. From this we can take the fact that it is a purely physical, and not spiritual union, and therefore, is an abomination on the holiest union in nature, between a man and a woman. The abomination judgment is general, so it also applies to the nefesh, or soul, since that essentially denies the manhood of the soul and makes the body further confused, and not only is it living in an illusion like everyone, the illusion is now an incorrect one, and it is very hard to work your way out of that, and achieve higher levels of spirituality. Most other reasons I know are kabbalistic, so I won't touch on that book here, but a good rabbi could probably name 80 reasons and 80 explanations with reasons for each one.

3. It's true, some people are given a very difficult test in life, and the 0.00001% of the male world that was born mutated with feminine parts will find it very tough, and the growing number of people that bought the homosexuality which is being advertised for whatever reason, and now have that deepened illusion have a real challenge. While psychologists used to work through it and many homosexuals no longer felt those urges, that is illegal counseling today, so if they can't break out of it themselves, it's not going to be easy. However, I have a major attraction to just about every woman I see, yet I'm not going to jump on anyone, because I'm trying to follow G-d's law, and use that attraction for good in this world. I also have a desire to smoke and work-out and play paintball on seadoos on shabbat, because it's cool, but it's still not something I do, because we are above our desires. Even though I live every shabbos with the test of not being able to go to the beach island with a paintball gun and play D-day, and it's hard, I do it because that's what being righteous is. If G-d knew about people who would have these desires, which he did, he could have said, "if this law is hard, you don't have to do it". He didn't, and while anyone with a test that great gets a huge extra reward for fighting it off, the same punishment applies whether he was tempted or not.

4. I'm sorry, but I don't really know what OP means... you aren't coming off as cocky, and even if you were, I still value this discussion with my sister.

5. Even in Torah times, you couldn't do anything to a homosexual unless four credible, and kosher, witnesses actually saw the act taking place. Absolutely, gay parades in Jerusalem are a disaster beyond all words, and though you can't just force people to do something, in time if Israel was a Torah Jewish state that believed in the Torah principle of fighting back against evil people like the Terroristinian pedo-girl-mutilators, these things would disappear slowly but surely. G-d forbid it is forced on us all at once, because prophetically, it's through massive death caused by Ishmael and Esav, but we can merit to not have to go through this if we turn to righteousness, and even if we won't be there tomorrow, to try, and that's a fundamental part of what Kahanism is.
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Offline muman613

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2013, 04:25:06 PM »
The Torah commands apply whether one is 'born that way' or whether he chooses it...

The law clearly outlaws the sex act between two men. There is no way to argue it only refers to rape, as I have seen some try to argue as. The issue is that a man should not be intimate in a way that he is intimate with a woman. The Torah never uses the term 'sleep with' rather it says 'lays with' and also when referring to the sex act, 'knowing' another of the opposite sex (As in Adam knew Eve, the townspeople of Sodom wanted to 'know' the angels)...

The Torah is clear that sexual immorality is an abomination. As I said the sex act is prohibited, whether a person struggles with un-kosher desires is another issue. I do believe we are all born with challenges which run contrary to the commandments. Some are born with a desire to steal, to covet, to worship avodah zarah (idolatry). Some people have an inclination for violence, and murder... These people could say 'I was born this way' and it would not be a valid argument to avoid the punishment of the Torah.

I have mercy on those who struggle with homosexual attraction, but I will never ever condone their activity, and I condemn it as immoral. But a sincere Jewish person who struggles with his inclination is certainly most praiseworthy.

PS: LKZ: I believe in forum slang 'OP' refers to the 'Original Poster' of the thread.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Rational Jew

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2013, 04:45:41 PM »
Can we please not switch topics and stop discussing gays
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Offline fibrogirl

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2013, 09:50:54 PM »
Can we please not switch topics and stop discussing gays
LOL Yes I'll go back to the original topic. Naturally evolved thread.

Just want to thank Mumin and LKZ for writing. That was fascinating.
I had no idea that you needed 4 credible witnesses in Torah times for court or that thing about Egypt.
I ended up googling anciant Egypt and found it was true, although this link gives a different reason for the Egyptian's weird practises. No wonder Moshe wanted to get the Israelites away from that.
http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/06/29/incest-in-ancient-egypt/

I still think that *some* homosexuals have an inclination that they were born with and did not chose, and find hard to change or are unable to change. But you are both right about being able to say an action is wrong.
You are right Muman, about it being important to control desires in order to behave ethically, even if it is extremely difficult.

It's almost a shame this discussion is hidden in this thread and not put somewhere for others to view.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2013, 10:09:42 PM »
LOL Yes I'll go back to the original topic. Naturally evolved thread.

Just want to thank Mumin and LKZ for writing. That was fascinating.
I had no idea that you needed 4 credible witnesses in Torah times for court or that thing about Egypt.
I ended up googling anciant Egypt and found it was true, although this link gives a different reason for the Egyptian's weird practises. No wonder Moshe wanted to get the Israelites away from that.
http://www.strangehistory.net/2011/06/29/incest-in-ancient-egypt/

I still think that *some* homosexuals have an inclination that they were born with and did not chose, and find hard to change or are unable to change. But you are both right about being able to say an action is wrong.
You are right Muman, about it being important to control desires in order to behave ethically, even if it is extremely difficult.

It's almost a shame this discussion is hidden in this thread and not put somewhere for others to view.

As I said, a minute segment of the population is actually born as a male with female-level estrogen, and they will find this to be a very difficult test. This represents less then one out of millions.

There are many discussions that should be out in the open from this forum. I've though of organizing it into a statement of beliefs, writing many philosophical/religious/political theoretic texts, or even a book about what JTF is.

Besides that however, you, as I certainly have, will find any Torah knowledge to be awe-inspiring, because of your soul. And any, today, has to be narrowed down to actual.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline fibrogirl

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2013, 10:51:17 PM »
Well the female estrogen thing sounds different to the standard homosexual. I think there is a biological factor that causes the inclination in some, but don't think it is genetic.


Yes it would be good to have statement of beliefs... or even just an ad hoc collection of text that are particularly interesting, like the bit you and Muman wrote above.

I think doing it properly with a lot theoretical/theological/political text would be too hard. Maybe that is just me.

---------

To get back to what to do if your family is leftest.

I avoid watching the news or television when I am around family because it can provoke silly arguments and annoy me.

It's harder when my Mum reads me a pearl of wisdom from the Israeli newspapers. It's got to the point where I just say
"It's left wing because of reason x and you're a leftie" (sparks an argument)
or "You know what I think, I don't want to talk about it." which is usually better
The only person who shares my views is my brother.

If there was a decent political group near you I would suggest you join that as a catharsis. 

I sometimes wonder if younger generations are going to be more conservative than their parents. I may be wrong, but I notice in Israel that young Israelis seem less  obsessed with "peace" than my generation, or the aging baby boomers. I'm 37 BTW.

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2013, 11:12:01 PM »
Well the female estrogen thing sounds different to the standard homosexual. I think there is a biological factor that causes the inclination in some, but don't think it is genetic.


Yes it would be good to have statement of beliefs... or even just an ad hoc collection of text that are particularly interesting, like the bit you and Muman wrote above.

I think doing it properly with a lot theoretical/theological/political text would be too hard. Maybe that is just me.

---------

To get back to what to do if your family is leftest.

I avoid watching the news or television when I am around family because it can provoke silly arguments and annoy me.

It's harder when my Mum reads me a pearl of wisdom from the Israeli newspapers. It's got to the point where I just say
"It's left wing because of reason x and you're a leftie" (sparks an argument)
or "You know what I think, I don't want to talk about it." which is usually better
The only person who shares my views is my brother.

If there was a decent political group near you I would suggest you join that as a catharsis. 

I sometimes wonder if younger generations are going to be more conservative than their parents. I may be wrong, but I notice in Israel that young Israelis seem less  obsessed with "peace" than my generation, or the aging baby boomers. I'm 37 BTW.

There are a lot of people who try the "natural homosexual" route, because it makes what they do stop being a choice, which it always was. There is no evidence of any kind for it.

The worst is when they say completely batty ultra-leftist things, and when you correct them, they say "I don't want to talk politics", because everything leftists believe is absolute truth to them, and disagreeing is politics. Like many religions, you don't need to be informed to be a leftist.

Torah says that there will be a hunger for Torah in this generation, and once as you taste it, you can't force the person to eat more leftist garbage. As far as I can see, though, the only decent political movements I've found are online. I hope that changes.

Here's something to laugh at:

The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline eb22

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Re: What if your entire family is leftist?
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2013, 12:19:18 AM »
I'm fortunate that I grew up in a household that was politically Conservative.   My Dad stood out for his Conservative beliefs.   While he passed away in 1991,  even back in the 1970's,   he had a strong feeling that someone along the lines of Barack Hussein Obama would eventually emerge as the occupier of the oval office.   My dad's 3 favorite politicians were Ronald Reagan,  Jesse Helms,  and Barry Goldwater.   He absolutely despised George McGovern and Ted Kennedy.   My Mom became politically Conservative largely because of the influence of my Dad.   

I have great difficulty talking politics with those on the left,  including with some cousins.   It causes stress for me.   To the point that I have ignored many Democrats in recent years,  including friends and cousins,   because of the rise of BHO and the leftist control of the vast majority of the Mainstream Media.    I feel for anyone who has immediate family members that are leftists.   
"Israel's leaders seem to be more afraid of Obama than they are of G-d. Now we're getting to the real root of the problem. Secular politics won't save Israel. Denying the divine nature of the Jewish State has brought Israel neither stability nor peace. When that changes Israel will finally be blessed with both in abundance"-----------NormanF   ( Posted on Israel Matzav's Blog )

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