Author Topic: Ketnoyit on Pessah.  (Read 10734 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2014, 12:44:17 AM »
Muman- yea, all true. I am not against Minhagim but their are 2 issues involved. 1) If the Minhag to begin with is valid and 2) and bigger issue is when is a minhag a minhag?- Meaning what defines a Minhag, family tradition or the PLACE of one's local. If you really check the sources, REAL MINHAG means the minhag of the locality- Minhag HaMakom. Check it in the Talmudh where it is discussed. This is the Halacha essentially. And we aren't supposed to even have "Askenasi, Sefardi, Teimani etc." all living in one location (say city or town) and all having different Beit Din's and minhagim. This is the real way in actuality.
 About the 2 day Yom Tov or wearing a head covering for example these are Minhagim of the WORLD and almost every community. Therfore it is binding upon us (also more details involved).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2014, 12:45:18 AM »
Here is what Talmud mesechet Pesachim 50 (no coincidence) says about what I am talking about:

http://halakhah.com/pdf/moed/Pesachim.pdf

C H A P T E R I V
 
 MISHNAH. WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM TO DO WORK ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER UNTIL MIDDAY ONE MAY DO [WORK]; WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM NOT TO DO [WORK], ONE MAY NOT DO [WORK]. HE WHO GOES FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK, ON FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO WORK, WE LAY UPON HIM THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHENCE HE DEPARTED AND THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHITHER HE HAS GONE;

AND A MAN MUST NOT ACT DIFFERENTLY [FROM LOCAL CUSTOM] ON ACCOUNT OF THE QUARRELS [WHICH WOULD ENSUE]. SIMILARLY, HE WHO TRANSPORTS SABBATICAL YEAR PRODUCE FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED OR FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED,1 IS BOUND TO REMOVE IT.2 R. JUDAH SAID: ‘DO YOU TOO GO OUT AND BRING [PRODUCE] FOR YOURSELF.3
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2014, 12:47:28 AM »
+ Muman, I was actually kidding around in the last part. Didn't you see the wink. I was kinda poking fun so relax.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2014, 12:48:50 AM »
The local custom in most Shuls where I live is Ashkenazi based... I know some Sephardic Jews who keep their own customs (my friend Davens from his fathers Sepherdic siddur)...

I am saying that at least where I am the custom of the majority of the community is according to Ashkenazic custom. So it would be against the spirit of Pesachim 50 to eat kitniyot (according to my understanding)...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2014, 12:49:30 AM »
+ Muman, I was actually kidding around in the last part. Didn't you see the wink. I was kinda poking fun so relax.

I get it now..
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 01:02:50 AM »
From what you quoted- 


C H A P T E R I V
 
 MISHNAH. WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM TO DO WORK ON THE EVE OF PASSOVER UNTIL MIDDAY ONE MAY DO [WORK]; WHERE IT IS THE CUSTOM NOT TO DO [WORK], ONE MAY NOT DO [WORK]. HE WHO GOES FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK, ON FROM A PLACE WHERE THEY DO NOT WORK TO A PLACE WHERE THEY DO WORK, WE LAY UPON HIM THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHENCE HE DEPARTED AND THE RESTRICTIONS OF THE PLACE WHITHER HE HAS GONE;

AND A MAN MUST NOT ACT DIFFERENTLY [FROM LOCAL CUSTOM] ON ACCOUNT OF THE QUARRELS [WHICH WOULD ENSUE]. SIMILARLY, HE WHO TRANSPORTS SABBATICAL YEAR PRODUCE FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED OR FROM A PLACE WHERE IT HAS NOT CEASED TO A PLACE WHERE IT HAS CEASED,1 IS BOUND TO REMOVE IT.2 R. JUDAH SAID: ‘DO YOU TOO GO OUT AND BRING [PRODUCE] FOR YOURSELF.3

 This in actuality proves that its the Minhag of the place and not of the father necessarily. UNLESS perhaps one can make the claim that today the Minhag of the place is to follow one's father's minhag. Or its the custom of this or that place to follow one's father's custom.


 Also another issue is if it was correct in the first place to establish this custom (assuming so because a custom made by the people isn't necessarily on par then with a custom made by the Hachamim and the question would be if more Hachamim agreed to it or more Hachamim disagreed to it, which if I remember the video claimed that more or the majority were opposed to this custom and the Rav quotes a number of Askenasi Hachamim who opposed it)  if it is binding upon a local (say America) over which this custom was not established in, but carried over. And would or does such a thing carry on from a different local or not.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 01:11:44 AM »
+ another issues especially in Eress Yisrael. And this is known especially with Rav Ovadia Yosef ZTL and his sons who say that at the very least those who are Baal Tishuva should follow "Sefardic" (meaning Shulhan Aruch) customs. This also happened to a large extent to the greater Sefardi or Mizrachi communities. Halachot of the Ben Ish Chai for example aren't followed (as much although their still are people who do) and others as well including local minhagim (of different localities) but instead people adopted the Shulhan Aruch and its rulings over time in Eress Yisrael more strongly and in Hutz Laaretz as well especially unto "Sefardi" or Mizrachi communities all under 1 banner of being "Sefardim".

 In theory they advocate that all Jews adopt the Shulhan Aruch especially in Israel because the Rav Yosef Karo is the "Marah daAtra" of the locality. In theory they would be correct and have a strong basis, but in actuality this is not what happened and Askenasim for the most part have kept their customs from their localities from Europe.
 Perhaps (and I hope this happens), the different Rabbanim and Hachamim and communities get together and at least on the bigger issues work to have a unified Beit Din where their is 1 central court instead of what we have today with many little one's and a whole mess. In total actuality under that circumstances would then a Minhag that they proclaim would be binding.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 01:24:19 AM »
My original point in this was that a woman who was originally of Ashkenazic origin, who was divorced from a Sephardic man whom she adopted his customs according to the 'rules of minhag', and she wanted to return to the Ashkenazic community, she should return to observing the custom of not eating Kitniyot... That was my point.

I originally davened (and when I daven at home I davened) from the Artscroll Ashkenazi siddur. But since I have been spending more time with Chabad, I have become accustomed to davening according to Chabad custom. Obviously for the most part they are the same, but there are some things which are different.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2014, 01:28:08 AM »
I usually pray the Ashekenazic prayers because I use the ArtScroll siddur at synagogue. But my own ArtScroll siddur is Sefarad (Thought not really Sfardic but similar to Chabad. Chabad says Nusach HaAri is for all Jews, like a 13th tribe. They said all Jews prayed according to tribe but now we don't know which tribe we are in so they pray Nusach HaAri.).

I do the Mizrachi Kiddush from a siddur from Shas with Rabbi Kaduri on the front cover. But I use an Ashkenazic ArtScroll bencher for Birkat HaMazon because that's what I learned from and if I use the Sfardic one, I will take longer because the Asheknezic one is like reading the Shema, where the words guide me but I can say parts without looking at the page. I also use the ArtScroll Hagaddah because it's user friendly. Before that I used the Kahanist Hagaddah by Rabbi Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane printed by HaIvri.

But for what I can eat on Passover, I go by the Sfardic custom and also regarding when to get a haircut or shave during the Omer, meaning only after Lag B'Omer, not on the day itself. But I'll eat whatever kosher meat there is while some only will eat Bet Yosef meat.

Generally I think Jews are Jews and we shouldn't care as much about differnet customs. I guess because I'm biologically half and half and grew up in the US were the Ashkenazic community is dominant. But I don't speak their Hebrew and I don't pronounce words like an American either. I pronounce it with a correct Israeli accent. I also like that Sfaradim lead the service outloud and you can say Amen while Ashkenazim magically read a whole page in a few seconds and then say the last words out loud. I doubt if they really say every single word or if they are just pretending.

I also like the Sfardic high holiday tunes but the Sfardic minyan near me is too far to walk to in a reasonable amount of time but sometimes I go there for Selichot. Also, it's outside of the my eruv but you can connect to their eruv if you walk in a tunnel under the tracks in a train station. Both eruvs are bordered by the tracks.



Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2014, 01:29:22 AM »
Rabbi Brovender gives a short discussion of changing nusach...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2014, 10:37:14 AM »
I daven "Sefardi" but mostly out of convenience and not because it is inherently better (or worse) then the other Nusuhaot. If I happen to be at a place that doesn't have a Sefardi Siddur or something I would and do take an Askenasi siddur be it the regular Askenasi one's or "Sefarad" which is mainly Hassidis siddur that somewhat combines Sefardi and Askenasi.

 I will probably switch to Nusah Eress Yisrael in the future (Would like and need to get a copy first and possibly translation as well because I like to know what I am saying).

 The bencher I use many times is the Nusah Eress Yisrael one. And I know and focus (many times) on its meaning as opposed to the regular Sefardi one that is long and I don't know its meaning (hard to focus).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2014, 12:26:52 AM »
I will probably switch to Nusah Eress Yisrael in the future

Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2014, 12:44:52 AM »
Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.

Why switch Nusach?
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline ChabadKahanist

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2014, 12:46:55 AM »
Hmm, I never heard of this. I daven Ashkenaz (Artscroll) although I was thinking of going Tehillat Hashem. How is Eress Yisrael? Where can I look into it?

I'm just so used to Artscroll.
I think he means Nusach Eretz Yisrael.
That is put together by Rabbi Bar Chayim of the Machon Shilo.

Offline Sveta

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2014, 01:05:47 AM »
Why switch Nusach?

Not necessarily switch in a way. I am too used to Artscroll to just switch, I love my Artscroll. But I usually go to two shuls and one is a Chabad shul where they use Tehillat Hashem. I feel very out of place when I use Artscroll there. I use Artscroll in the other shul without any problems.

As for why look into getting another siddur, I actually have 5, two of those are siddurim for women, one is a  Persian one that I have as a collector for my library. I want to have as many as possible, not just siddurim  but several books.

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #40 on: April 11, 2014, 01:38:44 AM »
Not necessarily switch in a way. I am too used to Artscroll to just switch, I love my Artscroll. But I usually go to two shuls and one is a Chabad shul where they use Tehillat Hashem. I feel very out of place when I use Artscroll there. I use Artscroll in the other shul without any problems.

As for why look into getting another siddur, I actually have 5, two of those are siddurim for women, one is a  Persian one that I have as a collector for my library. I want to have as many as possible, not just siddurim  but several books.

Cool,

I use Artscroll Ashkenazi at home... But I usually spend Shabbat with my Chabad minyan, and use their Tehillat Hashem siddurim.

Aside from some minor differences (for instance I notice we don't say Adon Olam at Chabad), and the addition of 'l'chai olamim' at Chabad) I have no trouble saying the tefillah.

Haderet v'haemunah l'chai olamim.
Habinah v'habracha l'chai olamim.
Hagavah v'hag'dulah l'chai olamim.
Hadeah v'hadibur l'chai olamim.
Hahod v'hehadar l'chai olamim.
Haviud v'havatikut l'chai olamim.
Hazach v'hazohar l'chai olamim.
Hachayil v'hachosen l'chai olamim.
Hateches v'hatohar l'chai olamim.
Hayichud v'hayir'ah l'chai olamim.
Haketer v'hakavod l'chai olamim.
Ham'lucha v'hamemshalah l'chai olamim.
Hanoi v'hanetzach l'chai olamim.
Hasigui v'hasegev l'chai olamim.
Haoz v'ha'anavah l'chai olamim.
Hap'dut v'hap'er l'chai olamim.
Hatz'vi v'hatzedek l'chai olamim.
Hak'riah v'hak'dushah l'chai olamim.
Haron v'harom'mut l'chai olamim.
Hashir v'hashevach l'chai olamim.
Hat'hilah v'hatif'eret l'chai olamim.[/quote]
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #41 on: April 11, 2014, 01:40:20 AM »
I like the tune of this tefillah:


You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Sveta

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Re: Ketnoyit on Pessah.
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2014, 02:17:29 AM »
I like the tune of this tefillah:



Awesome!!