Author Topic: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians  (Read 5269 times)

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Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2014, 02:09:37 AM »
I don't know about other churches but in every Serbian church there is admiration for Jewish people. In January at family celebration our local priest spoke about how we should look upon Jews and donate more for our church. According to him God has given many Jews a very good fortunes because of their willingness to donate. At many seminars priests compare what Jerusalem means for the Jews and what Kosovo means for us.

For some reason I don't know enough about to explain, Serbia generally seems especially righteous.
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Offline muman613

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2014, 02:26:04 AM »
Ok, now here I go...

We have a LOT OF WORK to do, all of us... I am not going to sit back and accept that the world is full of ignorant and malicious people. I am certainly not a person who wears rose colored glasses, but I am an optimist with a plan in my mind. I accept what most of you are saying here. I have shut out the mainstream world, as many know I do not watch cable TV, I don't go to movies, and I surely don't listen to the radio and modern music. I only watch things which I want to watch, including 'conservative' news sources and documentaries and various forms of music.

But that is not what I want to say. I think that JTF should not spend so much time dumping on all these ignorant people. There are people who can be influenced by a positive thought, a carefully thought out message to those around us. As a Jewish man who came to observance late in life, and over several years, I know that presenting Judaism in a positive manner is very important.

A short personal story; a Vietnamese man I work with and haven't seen in months came to me the other day and asked me if I was Jewish, and he wanted to share with me his experience from watching the Shindlers List film. I had an opportunity to enlighten him about the Jewish people. I wear Tzit-Tzits and headcovering and my side-locks are long, so I am an obvious Jewish man. I am proud of who I am, and I impress the people I am with by the conversations I have with them.

We all have the ability to connect with other people. In my family my brother was the one with all the Charisma, and I was always the nerdy guy who was shy and didn't take a stand. I discovered during my Teshuva in 2003 that the 'Charisma' gene ran in the family, and I just needed to harness it through coming back to the faith of my forefathers.

I realize my message may not reach everyone. Many people like to complain, and argue, and berate others. My experience with most every long time JTF member has been positive, despite the occasional flare ups and unintended insults, and I feel that our goal is a very, very righteous one.

I am honored to have a group like JTF who shares my view toward Israel, the problems of the Middle East, and terrorist islam. So many other on-line forums are full of Jew haters, but I know Jew haters don't stand much of a chance of lasting here at JTF.

Maybe we can win back the Evangelical Christians somehow. If anyone can think of a way to reach out to them, to explain how important Israel and the Jewish people are for the purpose of creation, please take action...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2014, 04:17:14 AM »
Reading Muman's post randomly made me think that since Judaism says that just converting to it won't make you a better person, "what Judaism is does not depend on the behavior of Jews" (Rabbi Mizrachi).  It seems a bit unfair to say that just because they were killing Jews for 1000 years and used their religion to back it up, what the religion says is bad. I know what it's like though, and basically if you follow everything in Judaism, you know how to do everything in your life perfectly, and if you're a righteous Noahide, you aren't breaking any law that brings punishment, and you can choose to engage in whatever spirituality you want, and aren't necessarily paying anyone (though really you could do a cooperative equals type of church thing where you all own the building together and can invest in stuff and buy nice things for the building after if you want) and with Catholicism (because technically that's where it all came from, anyways) every different culture can have their different breed of it, because even though everyone admits it's a part two, it's not like you find many that are experts in it, or even a correct translation out of the tens of thousands of translations they put before part 2. The Filipinos or one of those guys can nail themselves to crosses and take stuff to foam at the like they used to, the Haitians can do Catholic mass with Mary and do voodoo like they used to, most everyone can have their mother, father and son statues like their ancestors most likely used to, the Greeks can have their strict religion like they're used to, the secular states all have varying degrees of watered down versions of it, (because didn't "G-d"'s avatar-son love everyone? If you follow the religion correctly, isn't the proper response to be loving?) and the Americans have their versions which are different from the British mostly, and the Chinese return of the messiah lady has a lot of Chinese ways mixed into her thing. Africa doesn't count because it's basically all missionaries from other places. But yeah, who can really follow 100% what the book you claim was also written by G-d, you're left with "be loving" for billions of questions that will require you to interpret that twice as many ways. You also have to tell people about the book, and love them while knowing that they will burn in hell for all eternity if they don't hear about a story, and really believe that it happened based on the testimony of the people in the book and/or either say or say and believe that G-d's son-avatar came into the heart that G-d made and controls every aspect of. You can be for or against the Jews, "Jesus was a Jew" doesn't indicate in itself that you should at all like Jews. To say you're Jewish or Catholic doesn't mean anything, but to say you're religious when you're Jewish always means a precise set of things (unless it's considered heretical or traitorous, like Neutered Kapo) and to say you're a religious Xtian doesn't mean anything other than a belief in a 15 second story. You can't compare apples and oranges that way. Judaism is a 100% perfect religion (and no Catholic denies that the Torah came from G-d on mount Sinai, though they say that G-d changed his mind about the way stuff should be done) and Catholicism, without mentioning premise validity, can be followed religiously and 90% differently from the guy down the road or your great great grandfather.

Muman, their nations are going to attack Israel and try to destroy it soon, and they even claim they believe it. There's nothing you can do to stop it, other than cause Israel and the nations to turn to G-d. Fighting for their support is like the Haredi fighting for support from the secular government in exchange for loyalty.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2014, 03:42:57 PM »
Ok, now here I go...

We have a LOT OF WORK to do, all of us... I am not going to sit back and accept that the world is full of ignorant and malicious people. I am certainly not a person who wears rose colored glasses, but I am an optimist with a plan in my mind. I accept what most of you are saying here. I have shut out the mainstream world, as many know I do not watch cable TV, I don't go to movies, and I surely don't listen to the radio and modern music. I only watch things which I want to watch, including 'conservative' news sources and documentaries and various forms of music.

But that is not what I want to say. I think that JTF should not spend so much time dumping on all these ignorant people. There are people who can be influenced by a positive thought, a carefully thought out message to those around us. As a Jewish man who came to observance late in life, and over several years, I know that presenting Judaism in a positive manner is very important.

A short personal story; a Vietnamese man I work with and haven't seen in months came to me the other day and asked me if I was Jewish, and he wanted to share with me his experience from watching the Shindlers List film. I had an opportunity to enlighten him about the Jewish people. I wear Tzit-Tzits and headcovering and my side-locks are long, so I am an obvious Jewish man. I am proud of who I am, and I impress the people I am with by the conversations I have with them.

We all have the ability to connect with other people. In my family my brother was the one with all the Charisma, and I was always the nerdy guy who was shy and didn't take a stand. I discovered during my Teshuva in 2003 that the 'Charisma' gene ran in the family, and I just needed to harness it through coming back to the faith of my forefathers.

I realize my message may not reach everyone. Many people like to complain, and argue, and berate others. My experience with most every long time JTF member has been positive, despite the occasional flare ups and unintended insults, and I feel that our goal is a very, very righteous one.

I am honored to have a group like JTF who shares my view toward Israel, the problems of the Middle East, and terrorist islam. So many other on-line forums are full of Jew haters, but I know Jew haters don't stand much of a chance of lasting here at JTF.

Maybe we can win back the Evangelical Christians somehow. If anyone can think of a way to reach out to them, to explain how important Israel and the Jewish people are for the purpose of creation, please take action...
I agree. Also, our best weapon would be JTF Christians. They know their scripture(Christian) better than anyone, so they would know what to use to get others to support Jews and Israel.

I would also like to know this scripture. ...
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2014, 06:28:39 PM »
"Muman, most Jews are secular, and by their religion, have no share in the world to come, so they're at least ignorant or insane, and most of the ones you see on the tube are self-hating. Historically, most Jews were 100% religious, and many of the most positively influential people of the world came from them."

 First off I am happy to hear what you said earlier, and glad to be one of the 2 (+ Muman) who influenced you positively.

 Now about this, it is not necessarily so. Someone who isn't religious is not automatically "Damned". Their are different circumstances and the ultimate Judge is G-D. Yes, we as Jews should definitely do outreach and explain things to our brothers and sisters, and the world as well actually, but their are and were many Rabbanim who always said that their is a concept known as "Tinok ShNeshba". Even the Hazon Ish who is THE "ultra,ultra,ultra-Orthodox Rabbi" from last generation said this. As did the Rambam (in regards to the children and grandchildren of the Karaites who rejected the Oral Torah). So this is not a simple matter. It doesn't work like that. The ultimate Judge is G-D, never-the-less these Jews should be brought back and we (Jewish communities) should do our parts as well.   

 What you said about historically, not so true and accurate as well, but ookay. Also being "Religious" isn't an automatic pass in doing the right thing. During the second Temple period most people were Religious, they kept the Laws but their still were wrong ideologies, infighting and bad middot involved that lead to the Temple's destruction. Also some cases of wrong focus and making fights even with Romans for stupid things (such as them cutting a vine tree of a couple) and other examples. ALSO Rambam mentions not learning the art of War. Can be Religious, keep all the laws but still loose the war if you don't know how to fight. We don't expect G-D to intervene. It is a sin. 
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2014, 06:38:31 PM »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2014, 09:35:39 PM »
Ok, now here I go...

We have a LOT OF WORK to do, all of us... I am not going to sit back and accept that the world is full of ignorant and malicious people. I am certainly not a person who wears rose colored glasses, but I am an optimist with a plan in my mind. I accept what most of you are saying here. I have shut out the mainstream world, as many know I do not watch cable TV, I don't go to movies, and I surely don't listen to the radio and modern music. I only watch things which I want to watch, including 'conservative' news sources and documentaries and various forms of music.

But that is not what I want to say. I think that JTF should not spend so much time dumping on all these ignorant people. There are people who can be influenced by a positive thought, a carefully thought out message to those around us. As a Jewish man who came to observance late in life, and over several years, I know that presenting Judaism in a positive manner is very important.

A short personal story; a Vietnamese man I work with and haven't seen in months came to me the other day and asked me if I was Jewish, and he wanted to share with me his experience from watching the Shindlers List film. I had an opportunity to enlighten him about the Jewish people. I wear Tzit-Tzits and headcovering and my side-locks are long, so I am an obvious Jewish man. I am proud of who I am, and I impress the people I am with by the conversations I have with them.

We all have the ability to connect with other people. In my family my brother was the one with all the Charisma, and I was always the nerdy guy who was shy and didn't take a stand. I discovered during my Teshuva in 2003 that the 'Charisma' gene ran in the family, and I just needed to harness it through coming back to the faith of my forefathers.

I realize my message may not reach everyone. Many people like to complain, and argue, and berate others. My experience with most every long time JTF member has been positive, despite the occasional flare ups and unintended insults, and I feel that our goal is a very, very righteous one.

I am honored to have a group like JTF who shares my view toward Israel, the problems of the Middle East, and terrorist islam. So many other on-line forums are full of Jew haters, but I know Jew haters don't stand much of a chance of lasting here at JTF.

Maybe we can win back the Evangelical Christians somehow. If anyone can think of a way to reach out to them, to explain how important Israel and the Jewish people are for the purpose of creation, please take action...
If they don't want to support us, f them. They are phonies and G-d will deal with them. The righteous will always know which path to take.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2014, 09:56:05 PM »
If they don't want to support us, f them. They are phonies and G-d will deal with them. The righteous will always know which path to take.
NO! This is not the right thinking. Jesus even said he came for " the lost sheep". People are easily mislead, especially when they are young, or surrounded by evil people. So, someone who is nice, kind, and mislead, should perish?

Also, think of it as a big war... you need as many people as possible, or if you bring enough people back, there may not be a war. .. I hope!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #33 on: March 29, 2014, 02:45:32 AM »
NO! This is not the right thinking. Jesus even said he came for " the lost sheep". People are easily mislead, especially when they are young, or surrounded by evil people. So, someone who is nice, kind, and mislead, should perish?

Also, think of it as a big war... you need as many people as possible, or if you bring enough people back, there may not be a war. .. I hope!
He also said that the wheat would be separated from the chaff. Some people are just plain evil. We should be reaching out to the wishywashy Christians that don't understand why Zionism is a big deal, not the Nazis.

Offline KevinWhiteman

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #34 on: March 29, 2014, 05:51:35 PM »
I can't speak for the Protestants, but this Latin Mass Catholic will ALWAYS support Israel.

Offline Lisa

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2014, 09:38:51 PM »
I think the most important thing is for Jews to be proud, brave, and not self hating.  After all, you can't make people like you.  But if people know they can't harm or mess with Jews and get away with it, at least we'll get some (grudging) respect. 

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2014, 12:08:40 AM »
I agree. Also, our best weapon would be JTF Christians. They know their scripture(Christian) better than anyone, so they would know what to use to get others to support Jews and Israel.

I would also like to know this scripture. ...


If JTF Christians want to do that on their own, let them. But JTF should not encourage spreading Christianity. Spreading Christianity in the name of JTF would lead people to say JTF supports missionaries. I remember when Allen-T wanted to start a Christianity section for Christian members.


Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #37 on: March 30, 2014, 01:10:01 AM »
^ "But JTF should not encourage spreading Christianity. Spreading Christianity in the name of JTF would lead people to say JTF supports missionaries. I remember when Allen-T wanted to start a Christianity section for Christian members."

I wasn't saying that! And I definitely was not telling them to spread Christianity in the name of JTF. .. I was telling them to use pro Zionist Christianity to fight and save non Zionist Christians. ..

Another question I have is... is not the children of Esau, the children of Abraham?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #38 on: March 30, 2014, 01:36:14 AM »
The seed of Abraham is only called through Isaac and Jacob, not through Ishmael or Esav.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #39 on: March 30, 2014, 02:17:04 AM »


If JTF Christians want to do that on their own, let them. But JTF should not encourage spreading Christianity. Spreading Christianity in the name of JTF would lead people to say JTF supports missionaries. I remember when Allen-T wanted to start a Christianity section for Christian members.
So you hate Christians who are missionaries to Muslims? You'd rather that they remain Muslim Nazis?

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #40 on: March 30, 2014, 02:37:52 AM »
So you hate Christians who are missionaries to Muslims? You'd rather that they remain Muslim Nazis?


I'd rather they become Noahides, but I think you know that already. The Jewish/Noahide view of G-d is more similar to the Islamic view of G-d. But the Jewish/Noahide view of morality is more similar to the Christian view of morality than the Islamic view.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #41 on: March 30, 2014, 02:39:40 AM »


I'd rather they become Noahides, but I think you know that already. The Jewish/Noahide view of G-d is more similar to the Islamic view of G-d. But the  Jewish/Noahide view of morality is more similar to the Christian view of morality than the Islamic view.
You do realize that that post looked not so good, don't you? Not only did it look like you are against all Christian missionaries (meaning those who are not targeting Jews), but you also implied that we are all potentially like Anus-T.

Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #42 on: March 30, 2014, 02:47:45 AM »
If Christians want to missionize to Hindus, I think that would be a step in the right direction. But people who already believe in the One G-d should be encouraged to continue to believe in Him while dropping the murder and thievery associated with Islam. Any of the truths Islam has were taken from Judaism. Everything else Mohammad either copied off of Christianity and/or Pre-Islamic Arabian lunar worship or made it up.

Through the Jewish People, the World began to believe in G-d. That was the role of Christianity and Islam. But if they already have G-d as with Muslims, they should be encouraged to become Noahides. There already is one such Noahide on the forum.


Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2014, 02:51:03 AM »
I am not a Hindu and would never consider that religion, but would you personally feel the need to convert a Zionist Hindu?

Offline Zelhar

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2014, 05:08:14 AM »
In the 19th century there were allot of British  protestant churches that strongly supported Zionism. Nowadays the few who do are at the absolute fringes of British Christendom.  It could happen to the American evangelism movement as well. While some are true and staunch supporters. Others might have just used zionism as a tool to rally support for themselves and are likely to discard it if it goes out of fashion and popularity. Also there are already deeply entrenched trojan horse elements inside the Evangelist establishment like the Green family, that hideous Rick Warren mega church etc.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2014, 02:06:38 PM »
In the 19th century there were allot of British  protestant churches that strongly supported Zionism. Nowadays the few who do are at the absolute fringes of British Christendom.  It could happen to the American evangelism movement as well. While some are true and staunch supporters. Others might have just used zionism as a tool to rally support for themselves and are likely to discard it if it goes out of fashion and popularity. Also there are already deeply entrenched trojan horse elements inside the Evangelist establishment like the Green family, that hideous Rick Warren mega church etc.
It really goes back to what I've said all along, most professing Christians are phonies, evangelicals or not. Christianity is different from both Judaism and Islam in that it is a faith of personal decision rather than being ethnonationalistic. You aren't, properly speaking, "born into" it. You can be born into a Christian family/country but the choice is still yours when you are old enough to understand it, and it takes a lifetime of testing to see if that choice was meaningful to the core.

There will always be a righteous remnant, but Jesus himself did state that most of those who call on him were never his children.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2014, 05:07:11 PM »
It really goes back to what I've said all along, most professing Christians are phonies, evangelicals or not. Christianity is different from both Judaism and Islam in that it is a faith of personal decision rather than being ethnonationalistic. You aren't, properly speaking, "born into" it. You can be born into a Christian family/country but the choice is still yours when you are old enough to understand it, and it takes a lifetime of testing to see if that choice was meaningful to the core.

There will always be a righteous remnant, but Jesus himself did state that most of those who call on him were never his children.


Muslims go by the father. They also say everyone is Muslim until they choose otherwise (including if they were born to Non-Muslim parents.). I guess they think the Non-Muslim parents captured the babies. Muslims don't believe in ethnonationalism. They think everyone should be Muslim under the rule of a Worldwide Islamic empire.

I think Catholics also say someone is Catholic if the father is and since Catholicism believes in Replacement Theology, they think Catholics are born into it just like Jews are born into Judaism.


Offline Binyamin Yisrael

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2014, 05:11:14 PM »
So you hate Christians who are missionaries to Muslims? You'd rather that they remain Muslim Nazis?


Wasn't the person saying to use the Christian Bible to so spread support of Israel actually saying to use it to get other Christians to support Israel? Obviously Christians that support JTF are free to do what they want with their fellow Christians. I was just saying that in the name of JTF, we only support spreading Judaism and the Noahide Laws.

We don't need to try to win over Muslims. I don't think anyone was saying that. Muslims as a religion are evil. The good ones are the exception and therefore are not real Muslims. I don't see anyone trying to win over the majority of blacks that support Obama.


Offline Israel Chai

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #48 on: March 30, 2014, 07:15:41 PM »
So you hate Christians who are missionaries to Muslims? You'd rather that they remain Muslim Nazis?

No go ahead.
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Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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Re: Israel is losing its grip on evangelical Christians
« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2014, 07:23:26 PM »


Wasn't the person saying to use the Christian Bible to so spread support of Israel actually saying to use it to get other Christians to support Israel?
Who are you talking about, Anus-T?