Author Topic: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?  (Read 4595 times)

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Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« on: March 31, 2014, 01:43:57 PM »
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 04:12:34 PM »
Vegetarianism and veganism are basically atheist kosher, and arise from the nihilistic viewpoint that animals are more important than humans.

Not necessarily true. There are Rabbis who are vegetarians, including the great Rabbi Richman of the Temple institute. I learned this two weeks ago while listening to his radio show on Arutz Sheva where he revealed this.

In order to learn why, one should listen to his discussion of the topic.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 04:14:12 PM »
The Torah did not permit eating meat till after Noach saved the entire animal kingdom, and only because Noach showed such compassion and care for the animals were we allowed to eat them. The thing Hashem wants us to learn is that we must be  compassionate on the animals, and if we must eat them, we must do so in the way which causes the least amount of suffering.

Some animal related commandments which sages suggest that compassion is the goal:

1) Send away mother bird.
2) Do not kill the mother and the calf on the same day.
3) Not mix milk and meat.
4) Unload a neighbors ox who is overburdened.

There are more also...
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 04:18:20 PM »
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/vegetarianism-and-judaism/


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The Talmud says that at the end of one’s life, the first question God asks is: “Did you taste every fruit that I put on Earth?” We are enjoined to appreciate all of life’s bounty. Indeed, Maimonides deems it a mitzvah to partake of meat on the holidays, in order to increase one’s pleasure and rejoicing. (In practice, this does not apply to those who do not enjoy these foods.)

In general, Judaism permits the eating of meat, provided that the animal: is a species permitted by the Torah (Leviticus chapter 11); is ritually slaughtered (shechita) (Deut. 12:21); has the non-kosher elements (blood and certain fats and sinews) removed (Leviticus 3:17; Genesis 32:33); is prepared without mixing meat and milk (Exodus 34:26); and that appropriate blessings are recited (Deut. 8:10).

By eating in the Torah-prescribed manner, and with the proper focus and intent, says the Talmud, one’s table can become a virtual altar in the service of God.

COMPASSION FOR ANIMALS
At the same time, the Torah stresses compassion for animals. Indeed, the Jewish forefathers are known affectionately as the “Seven Shepherds,” and the Talmud describes how God chose Moses for Jewish leadership based on his tender care for flocks of sheep.

Here are some examples of Jewish legislation regarding the ethical treatment of animals:

* It is prohibited to cause pain to animals - tzaar ba’alei chaim. (Talmud - Baba Metzia 32b, based on Exodus 23:5)
   
* One is obligated to relieve an animal’s suffering (i.e. unburden it), even if it belongs to your enemy. (Exodus 23:5)
   
* If an animal depends on you for sustenance, it is forbidden to eat anything until feeding the animal first. (Talmud - Brachot 40a, based on Deut. 11:15)
   
* We are commanded to grant our animals a day of rest on Shabbat. (Exodus 20:10)
   
* It is forbidden to use two different species to pull the same plow, since this is unfair to the weaker animal. (Deut. 22:10)
   
* It is a mitzvah to send away a mother bird before taking her young. (Deut. 22:7)
   
* It is forbidden to kill a cow and her calf on the same day. (Leviticus 22:28)
   
* It is prohibited to sever and eat a limb off a live animal. (Genesis 9:4; this is one of the “Noachide” laws that apply to Jews and non-Jews alike.)
   
* Shechita (ritual slaughter) must be done with a minimum of pain to the animal. The blade must be meticulously examined to assure the most painless form of death possible. (“Chinuch” 451; “Pri Megadim” - Introduction to Shechita Laws).
   
* Hunting animals for sport is viewed with serious disapproval by our Sages. (Talmud - Avoda Zara 18b; “Noda BeYehuda” 2-YD 10)

To deal casually or cavalierly with the life of an animal is antithetical to Jewish values. This sensitivity is illustrated by the following story:

In a small European village, a shochet (ritual slaughterer) fetched some water to apply to his blade in the preparation process. At a distance, he observed a very old man, watching him and shaking his head from side to side disapprovingly. Finally, the young shochet asked the old man for an explanation.

The old man replied that as he watched him prepare his blade, it brought back memories from many years earlier when, as a young man, he had observed the saintly Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov (founder of the chassidic movement) doing the same thing. But the difference, he explained, was that Rabbi Israel did not need to fetch water in order to sharpen the blade—rather the tears that streamed from his eyes were adequate.

HIERARCHY OF CREATION
While Jewish law protects the ethical treatment of animals, Judaism also maintains that animals are meant to serve mankind, as it says: “Let man dominate the fish, birds and animals” (Genesis 1:26). There is a clear hierarchy of creation, with man at the pinnacle.

Maimonides identifies four levels in the hierarchy of creation, in which every creature derives its sustenance from the level beneath it:

Level 1: Domaim—the silent, inanimate realm (i.e. earth and minerals) constitutes the lowest existence, and is self-sustaining.

Level 2: Tzomey’ach—vegetation is nurtured by the previous level, earth.

Level 3: Chai—the animal kingdom eats mostly vegetation.

Level 4: Medaber—human beings (lit.: the speaking being) derive nourishment by eating both vegetation and animals.

When food is consumed, its identity is transformed into that of the one eating it. Thus the Talmud (Pesachim 59b) regards it as morally justified to eat animals only when we are involved in holy and spiritual pursuits. It is only then that the human actualizes his highest potential, and the consumed animal is, so to speak, elevated to the level of “human.”

In Jewish consciousness, the highest level an animal can achieve is to be consumed by a human and used in the service of God. A chicken on a Shabbos table is a very lucky chicken! (see “Tanya” ch. 7)

If, however, the person is acting like an animal, then by what right may he consume his “peer”? What spiritual improvement can he confer upon this animal by eating it?

Therefore, before eating meat, we must ask ourselves the very sobering question of whether in fact, given who we are, are we indeed benefiting this animal?

When eating is not merely an act of “mindless consumption,” but rather an act with clear intent that the strength and energy one derives from the food will be utilized to benefit the world, then eating has been sublimated to an act of worship.
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You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 04:27:57 PM »
aish.com concludes with this...

http://www.aish.com/ci/be/51472337.html

This answers what some people consider a paradox of the Jewish approach to animals. Some people ask, if Judaism acknowledges ethical duties towards animals, why does it let us use them for our benefit? In fact, the duties to animals are a consequence of the benefit we derive from them. Ethical duties don't arise in a vacuum; they generally stem from a combination of empathy and reciprocity. Reciprocity doesn't have to mean tit for tat; animals won't go on strike and refuse to help us if some people treat them meanly. In this context, reciprocity means that we acknowledge the benefit animals provide us and requite it with basic standards of humane treatment.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 04:29:31 PM »
  Yet we were allowed to eat animals and in fact in regards to sacrifices commanded to. Its not because we need to for strength (which is also true, eating meat makes you stronger and with more vitality) but it is essentially part of the Avodah in the Beit Hamikdash.

 I don't understand that you said that Rabbi Richman is a vegetarian. Yet he wants to (and that is great) and promotes making the sacrifices including the Pessah sacrifice that we can and should bring even this year. So if he were able to do so, would he then not eat the meat (minimum a Kzait amount, I think twice).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2014, 04:30:59 PM »
"1) Send away mother bird."

 Actually this is complicated why. Their are sayings that when one says this is for compassion "we silence him".
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 04:40:17 PM »
"1) Send away mother bird."

 Actually this is complicated why. Their are sayings that when one says this is for compassion "we silence him".

Yes, I can bring a good explanation why... But the root of the commandment is not to foster compassion for the bird, but rather to foster compassion between humans.

Don't we know that people who are cruel to animals usually end up being cruel to man?

It is because of this that the Torah wants to instill the concept of compassion on the animals.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 04:46:02 PM »
Listen to his lecture from two weeks ago...

The part I am referring to starts around 20 minutes...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 04:56:12 PM »
    Thanks for the link (I heard him and) I disagree with him on this. I don't know why he doesn't mention the obligation to eat meat having to do with Temple services. (ookay he does later on), but still their is no real prohibition at all.
 + The sages say to eat meat during the holidays.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 05:46:01 PM »
    Thanks for the link (I heard him and) I disagree with him on this. I don't know why he doesn't mention the obligation to eat meat having to do with Temple services. (ookay he does later on), but still their is no real prohibition at all.
 + The sages say to eat meat during the holidays.

Rabbi Richman fully supports the eating of meat according to Torah. He rallies to reinstitute the Offerings in the Temple. But he abstains from eating commercially slaughtered meat because he questions whether it is slaughtered with the correct intention concerning the welfare of the animals.

He says that the current meat industry (even Kosher slaughterhouses) may be lacking the required compassion in order to justify eating it to him personally. He does not object to others eating meat which is slaughtered in the commercial system, but he has a personal reason to not eat it himself.

In that interview he supported Yitzak's slaughtering of the Korban pesach (which he brought into the house as per Halacha, and slaughtered on the commanded day)...

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 07:57:13 PM »
"In that interview he supported Yitzak's slaughtering of the Korban pesach (which he brought into the house as per Halacha, and slaughtered on the commanded day)..."

 Haa? How? we don't make Karbanot outside of the Temple (area).
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 09:42:44 PM »
See what Rabbi Richman wrote:

http://www.templeinstitute.org/archive/29-03-12.htm

BRINGING THE KORBAN PESACH

reprinted from Five Towns Jewish Times
Thursday, 29 March 2012

by Samuel Sokol Mideast Correspondent

Right-wing activists, including Shmuel Sackett of the Likud Party, are planning an attempt to bring a Paschal lamb as a sacrifice on the Temple Mount prior to the Passover holiday, the Five Towns Jewish Times has learned.

The Temple Mount (Har HaBayit), known to Muslims as the Haram al-Sharif, is currently the site of the Al-Aqsa Mosque as well as the Dome of the Rock, which was built on the location of the Jewish Second Temple that was destroyed by the Roman Empire in 70 AD.

While Israel's High Court of Justice has affirmed the right of Jews to worship on the Mount, it has also granted the Israeli police discretion to permit or forbid various forms of religious expression based on the imperative to maintain public order. Jewish pilgrims to the Mount are always accompanied by guards employed by the Wakf, the Islamic endowment that controls the site's day-to-day administration, who ensure that Muslim sensibilities are not offended.

During a visit by this correspondent to the Temple Mount, police guards searched through pilgrims' wallets, confiscating any printed materials containing Judaic content.

Sackett, longtime assistant to Moshe Feiglin, the leader of the Likud's ultra-nationalist Manhigut Yehudit faction, said that he and nine others have joined in purchasing a lamb for the sacrifice, which the Bible describes as a yearly obligation on the part of all Jews.

Citing the High Court's declarations regarding the legal right of Jews to worship on the Mount, Sackett stated that he did not intend to coordinate his visit with the police or any governing body. And he did not, he then stated, wish to turn his attempt at sacrifice into a publicity stunt.

Given the holy site's importance as a symbol in the Arab-Israeli conflict, it is unlikely that the police will allow Sackett entry to the site when he shows up holding a slaughtering knife and leading a sheep. The Palestinian Authority frequently incites rioting and violence by accusing Israeli authorities of planning to raze the mount's two mosques and rebuild the Temple in their place. While Israeli leaders frequently deny this, Sackett and his faction take issue with the official position of the Israeli government and have actively campaigned for the rebuilding of the Temple.

Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said that security forces at the entrance to the Temple Mount will, should anyone attempt to bring a sacrifice, work to "prevent any provocative incidents by any members of the public from taking place that could cause a public disturbance in any way and cause tensions in any of the different communities."

In February, dozens of Arab rioters stoned tourists on the Temple Mount following a sermon by the former mufti of Jerusalem, a senior cleric, who the day before alleged that Jewish extremists "might implement their threats to break into the Al-Aqsa Mosque."

Asked why he intended to bring a sacrifice that he knows the police will prevent, Sackett stated that his answer to that is simple: "What would be the reaction of the Torah world if the mitzvah of b'ris milah became illegal? Would we simply say, ‘Why bother, since the police won't let us' . . . or would the Torah world take to the streets and demand a change?"

In a written statement, Sackett explained, "Many of the people reading these words will not understand how serious I take the mitzvah of Korban Pesach. Therefore, I urge each and every one of them to check the sources: In simple terms—even though it may come as a complete shock to you—one does not need the Beit HaMikdash, just the makom (the place) of the Mikdash, in order to offer a Korban Pesach today. And we know exactly where that is."

Rabbi Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute, a religious-Zionist organization dedicated to the rebuilding of the Temple, said that in the eyes of the national-religious community, the problem of prayer on the Mount is political in nature, and that the anger of many members of his community toward the police is misplaced.

The decision to allow or disallow prayer, Richman stated, is made by the prime minister's bureau, and the police over the last few years have been increasingly accommodating to Jewish worshipers, although formal prayer services are still banned.

Richman also blasted the chareidi community's rabbinical leadership for instructing their followers to avoid ascending the Temple Mount. Chareidi leaders, he stated, have asserted that such ascension is currently forbidden by Jewish law, a ruling he vigorously disputes.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline muman613

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 10:06:19 PM »
See also this discussion of the pro/con about Korbanot today:

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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Re: Is the Torah Pro-Vegetarian or Pro-Vegan?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 10:12:56 PM »
See also this discussion of the pro/con about Korbanot today:

http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/korbanottoday.htm

 I actually read this right before you posted it, wanted to post it as well. Nice.

 Yea, I wanted to ask about the Rambam vs. Raavad debate in regards to the Gid Hanashe. Did anyone resolve this issue as of yet?
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.