Author Topic: Self Hating Israeli Jews (Read 3905 times)

Shoshana · « **on:** August 05, 2007, 10:31:31 AM »

>:(I was just appaled last night and wanted to share the story. I've been on and off dating an Israeli for a few months. Last night we had a big ole 3 hour long heated debate-arguement would be more like it- He continued saying the Holocaust would never happen again however said point blank that if he had children and someone was trying to murder or harm them( in a Holocaust like situation) he wasn't sure what he would do. He would "have hope" that the German or whomever wouldn't hurt the child too bad and would allow them all to live to see another day and that essentially he would go along with whatever they wanted to do.
I asked so if we were married and were in concentration camps and had children if someone was trying to murder us right before your very eyes you wouldn't do anything. His answer was Yes because it is essentially suicide. My argument was at least you would die defending your family. Keep in mind this is a common opinion in Israel as is obvious by Israeli foreign policy. Rather than stand up for yourself and do what needs to be done, oh no we can't do that, we(Jews) would rather get lead like sheeps to the slaughter allowing rockets to be fired into our towns and bombs filled with nails and rat poison to go off in our public builings and yet having no concrete response.
Then of course I'm an extremist for supporting those "religious nut" right wing settlers but yet Fatah deserves our support and we should be striving for peace at any cost.
You know, it disgusts me that alot of people in America- yourselves included- put themselves on on the line in support of a cause that alothough is right and just isn't popular and yet Israelis have these opinions? You know, it almost makes you wanna throw your hands up in the air and say I'm done with you people- if you won't defend yourselves then I won't bother! :embarassed:

mord · « **Reply #1 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:37:29 AM »

You see thats what i said yesterday many Israelis are leftists,many of them could'nt make it through Basic Infantry training here in the U.S.At one time before the Oslo nonsensethe IDF took training seriously now they just want to get over This is interesting

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3433726,00.html

RationalThought110 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:48:46 AM »

I don't know what you mean about supporting Fatah. If you are serious about it, then you're wrong. You shouldn't want Fatah in power because the Bolsheviks can't wait to give territory over to Fatah.

Opposing the Bolsheviks is not extremism.

Shoshana · « **Reply #3 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:53:05 AM »

Quote from: RationalThought110 on August 05, 2007, 10:48:46 AM

I don't know what you mean about supporting Fatah. If you are serious about it, then you're wrong. You shouldn't want Fatah in power because the Bolsheviks can't wait to give territory over to Fatah.

Opposing the Bolsheviks is not extremism.

No no no, I was simply stating what this idiot said to me. I of course agree with your assessment.

HiWarp · « **Reply #4 on:** August 05, 2007, 10:56:21 AM »

Quote from: Shoshana on August 05, 2007, 10:31:31 AM

>:(I was just appaled last night and wanted to share the story. I've been on and off dating an Israeli for a few months. Last night we had a big ole 3 hour long heated debate-arguement would be more like it- He continued saying the Holocaust would never happen again however said point blank that if he had children and someone was trying to murder or harm them( in a Holocaust like situation) he wasn't sure what he would do. He would "have hope" that the German or whomever wouldn't hurt the child too bad and would allow them all to live to see another day and that essentially he would go along with whatever they wanted to do.
I asked so if we were married and were in concentration camps and had children if someone was trying to murder us right before your very eyes you wouldn't do anything. His answer was Yes because it is essentially suicide. My argument was at least you would die defending your family. Keep in mind this is a common opinion in Israel as is obvious by Israeli foreign policy. Rather than stand up for yourself and do what needs to be done, oh no we can't do that, we(Jews) would rather get lead like sheeps to the slaughter allowing rockets to be fired into our towns and bombs filled with nails and rat poison to go off in our public builings and yet having no concrete response.
Then of course I'm an extremist for supporting those "religious nut" right wing settlers but yet Fatah deserves our support and we should be striving for peace at any cost.
You know, it disgusts me that alot of people in America- yourselves included- put themselves on on the line in support of a cause that alothough is right and just isn't popular and yet Israelis have these opinions? You know, it almost makes you wanna throw your hands up in the air and say I'm done with you people- if you won't defend yourselves then I won't bother! :embarassed:

But this mentality is not unique to Israel. I had a similar conversation a few months ago with someone about gun control. Her argument was that we should abolish all guns. When I informed her that this would only work for law abiding citizens and that criminals would still possess guns, she answered that she could never use a gun against anyone. So I asked, if someone broke into your home and was threatening to rape and kill you and you had a gun available you mean you would not use it? Her answer: no. You mean you would prefer to be raped and killed instead of defending yourself? Her answer: yes. How do you argue with that mentality?

Ehud · « **Reply #5 on:** August 05, 2007, 02:27:08 PM »

Quote from: Shoshana on August 05, 2007, 10:31:31 AM

>:(I was just appaled last night and wanted to share the story. I've been on and off dating an Israeli for a few months. Last night we had a big ole 3 hour long heated debate-arguement would be more like it- He continued saying the Holocaust would never happen again however said point blank that if he had children and someone was trying to murder or harm them( in a Holocaust like situation) he wasn't sure what he would do. He would "have hope" that the German or whomever wouldn't hurt the child too bad and would allow them all to live to see another day and that essentially he would go along with whatever they wanted to do.
I asked so if we were married and were in concentration camps and had children if someone was trying to murder us right before your very eyes you wouldn't do anything. His answer was Yes because it is essentially suicide. My argument was at least you would die defending your family. Keep in mind this is a common opinion in Israel as is obvious by Israeli foreign policy. Rather than stand up for yourself and do what needs to be done, oh no we can't do that, we(Jews) would rather get lead like sheeps to the slaughter allowing rockets to be fired into our towns and bombs filled with nails and rat poison to go off in our public builings and yet having no concrete response.
Then of course I'm an extremist for supporting those "religious nut" right wing settlers but yet Fatah deserves our support and we should be striving for peace at any cost.
You know, it disgusts me that alot of people in America- yourselves included- put themselves on on the line in support of a cause that alothough is right and just isn't popular and yet Israelis have these opinions? You know, it almost makes you wanna throw your hands up in the air and say I'm done with you people- if you won't defend yourselves then I won't bother! :embarassed:

Most Israelis don't think like that. Most Israelis would defend their family, you just happened to find a wimp. He probably never even served in a combat role in the military.

Please don't think that just because you found a wimp all Israelis are like that.

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #6 on:** August 05, 2007, 04:59:09 PM »

Eh, I have my doubts about that, Ze'ev.

But anyway, Shoshana, I say dump the loser. There ARE right-wing, patriotic Jews out there. They may not be the majority but they are out there, especially in men.

Lisa · « **Reply #7 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:30:29 PM »

There are maybe two or four right wing men in New York that I know.

It's not easy being Jewish and right wing.

mord · « **Reply #8 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:34:14 PM »

If you live in the city thats true most Jewish men admire woody allen,except for the normal right wing men,JEWISH WOMEN 70% ALSO ADMIRE WOODY ALLEN

Shot at 2007-08-05

MassuhDGoodName · « **Reply #9 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:40:05 PM »

I don't admire Woody Allen, but I think he's funny.

However, I saw that documentary made about his world tour with his Dixieland Band, which showed him as himself behind the scenes, and he appeared to be the most pathetic, neurotic, and impossible-to-live-with person I've ever seen!

mord · « **Reply #10 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:43:06 PM »

HE'S A LUNATIC YOUR RIGHT

Masha · « **Reply #11 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:55:56 PM »

Quote from: Shoshana on August 05, 2007, 10:31:31 AM

>:(I was just appaled last night and wanted to share the story. I've been on and off dating an Israeli for a few months. Last night we had a big ole 3 hour long heated debate-arguement would be more like it- He continued saying the Holocaust would never happen again however said point blank that if he had children and someone was trying to murder or harm them( in a Holocaust like situation) he wasn't sure what he would do. He would "have hope" that the German or whomever wouldn't hurt the child too bad and would allow them all to live to see another day and that essentially he would go along with whatever they wanted to do.
I asked so if we were married and were in concentration camps and had children if someone was trying to murder us right before your very eyes you wouldn't do anything. His answer was Yes because it is essentially suicide. My argument was at least you would die defending your family. Keep in mind this is a common opinion in Israel as is obvious by Israeli foreign policy. Rather than stand up for yourself and do what needs to be done, oh no we can't do that, we(Jews) would rather get lead like sheeps to the slaughter allowing rockets to be fired into our towns and bombs filled with nails and rat poison to go off in our public builings and yet having no concrete response.
Then of course I'm an extremist for supporting those "religious nut" right wing settlers but yet Fatah deserves our support and we should be striving for peace at any cost.
You know, it disgusts me that alot of people in America- yourselves included- put themselves on on the line in support of a cause that alothough is right and just isn't popular and yet Israelis have these opinions? You know, it almost makes you wanna throw your hands up in the air and say I'm done with you people- if you won't defend yourselves then I won't bother! :embarassed:

You know, Shoshana, these kinds of opinions (like your friend's) make me so sick about Jews, in general. Often, I just wonder - why bother? Why do I have a heartache about Jews and Israel? We are such a bunch of losers - maybe we just don't deserve to live and be a nation if we don't want to fight for it. If I were there during the conversation, I would have probably assaulted your friend physically. (And you know what? I bet he would have struck me back - because I'm not a big bad nazi or muslim, and hitting me would be safe).

But I just wonder - what is it about us, Jews, that we are such sheep? Is it gebetic or is it cultural? By the way, I have never been like that. I've always felt very fiercely about self-defence.

mord · « **Reply #12 on:** August 05, 2007, 05:58:16 PM »

It's cultural

Masha · « **Reply #13 on:** August 05, 2007, 06:08:06 PM »

Quote from: mord on August 05, 2007, 05:58:16 PM

It's cultural

How come I didn't catch this culture then?

mord · « **Reply #14 on:** August 05, 2007, 06:09:26 PM »

Neither did i or my family,some Jews have to be normal

Masha · « **Reply #15 on:** August 05, 2007, 06:22:32 PM »

Quote from: mord on August 05, 2007, 06:09:26 PM

Neither did i or my family,some Jews have to be normal

I think I'll ask Chaim next week whether there is some spiritual/religious explanation for self-hating Jews.

mord · « **Reply #16 on:** August 05, 2007, 06:25:29 PM »

I think it has to do with upbringing the type of work a persons family is in etc

Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks · « **Reply #17 on:** August 05, 2007, 07:30:43 PM »

Chaim would tell you that it is due to millenia of ingrained anti-Semitism, persecution, and attempts at extermination. However, I am not sure that I buy that. We see the worst self-hatred in countries where there is little organized anti-Semitism (the U.S. and Israel). Thus that can't be the explanation, or at least the only one.

Catholic Zionist 73 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 05, 2007, 07:43:15 PM »

The way I see it, Jews are generally well educated and highly intelligent people. However, a lot of people who go to university/college, can become too intellectual and loose some "common sense". Look at the way liberals/socialists dominate universities. These people don't live in the real world. Every culture has folk tales of the peasant who is looked down on by the intellectuals, but who triumphs by having more common sense. It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Of course, I suppose it's more of a problem with non religious Jews, as The Bible is the greatest source of wisdom in the world.

Masha · « **Reply #19 on:** August 06, 2007, 02:01:50 AM »

Quote from: C.F. on August 05, 2007, 07:30:43 PM

Chaim would tell you that it is due to millenia of ingrained anti-Semitism, persecution, and attempts at extermination. However, I am not sure that I buy that. We see the worst self-hatred in countries where there is little organized anti-Semitism (the U.S. and Israel). Thus that can't be the explanation, or at least the only one.

I agree that there are several good, logical explanations. But I also think that there must be some religious or mystical or metaphysical - call you what you may - reason hovering somewhere out there. Just as anti-semitism is mystical. Yes, there are reasons such as Jews historically working as money lenders and other hated professions. But that's not the whole thing. Because there is strong anti-semitism in countries where there historically weren't any Jews.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn - a famous former Soviet dissident - wrote a book about Jews. There he writes that anti-semitism in Russia came about because Jews owned drinking establishments and caused the alcoholism of Russian people.

Masha · « **Reply #20 on:** August 06, 2007, 02:07:46 AM »

Quote from: Catholic Zionist 73 on August 05, 2007, 07:43:15 PM

The way I see it, Jews are generally well educated and highly intelligent people. However, a lot of people who go to university/college, can become too intellectual and loose some "common sense". Look at the way liberals/socialists dominate universities. These people don't live in the real world. Every culture has folk tales of the peasant who is looked down on by the intellectuals, but who triumphs by having more common sense. It's the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Of course, I suppose it's more of a problem with non religious Jews, as The Bible is the greatest source of wisdom in the world.

Many people in universities are envious and resentful people, even though they think very highly about their moral virtues. They envy people in the business world because they make a lot of money but are not as smart as them. They think: how come I studied for so many years and am so smart, but this guy makes 4-5 times the money I am paid? I think a lot of their stupid ideas are invented to irritate people outside the academia and prove to them that they are intellectually superior.

RationalThought110 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 06, 2007, 03:20:16 AM »

Quote from: Masha on August 05, 2007, 06:22:32 PM

Quote from: mord on August 05, 2007, 06:09:26 PM
Neither did i or my family,some Jews have to be normal

I think I'll ask Chaim next week whether there is some spiritual/religious explanation for self-hating Jews.

You should read some of the archived JTF articles:

http://www.jtf.org/america/america.jews.will.support.black.nazis.htm

http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.jewish.billionaires.help.arab.muslim.nazis.htm

Masha · « **Reply #22 on:** August 06, 2007, 03:45:45 AM »

Quote from: RationalThought110 on August 06, 2007, 03:20:16 AM

Quote from: Masha on August 05, 2007, 06:22:32 PM
Quote from: mord on August 05, 2007, 06:09:26 PM
Neither did i or my family,some Jews have to be normal

I think I'll ask Chaim next week whether there is some spiritual/religious explanation for self-hating Jews.

You should read some of the archived JTF articles:

http://www.jtf.org/america/america.jews.will.support.black.nazis.htm

http://www.jtf.org/israel/israel.jewish.billionaires.help.arab.muslim.nazis.htm

Thanks, I will.