Gerim who do not act or dress modestly?

[Sveta]

What do we do upon seeing women who do giyur and yet after, we see them dressed immodestly (sometimes even wearing pants)?

Does it make a difference if we were to find out such people who act this way did their giyur in batei din (Orthodox) that are not recognized by the Chief Rabbinate in Israel? I know some people in this situation. If it's not dressing immodestly, it's using curse words or badmouthing people, dancing around like crazy with the opposite gender the list goes on. But the immodest dress gets to me, no tzniut at all (or very very light tzniut sometimes).

These people are widely accepted in my community by everyone I know. No one ever seems to question their Jewishness and one of them is even getting married, so her her giyur is valid in this community. I keep quiet and never say anything but internally I am not ok with it. I think whatever happened in the giyur process they did and if they're Jewish or not is only for Hashem to know. However, would you marry your children to theirs? I don't want to ask but would we consider them Jewish in the first place?

In contrast, plenty of other gerim immerse themselves in Judaism that they never waiver, never act or dress immodestly and are great examples. It's the few that don't which are the problem. In this case, my concern is... there are many Orthodox batei din, not all of them are recognized in Israel. Let's say there are 5 Batei Din in Denver (just an example). 2 are recognized in Israel and the other 3 are not. If someone does giyur in one that is not accepted in Israel, but is accepted in the US, I am assuming such person could get married in the US, possibly some other countries. But if that person were to go to Israel (or her children) and were told by the Chief Rabbinate "we don't recognize your conversion, you're not Jewish" is that person still Jewish in the US but not in Israel?

In the case of these people I know and see every once in a while, it is my hope that (regardless of thebatei din they chose) that they could get some other form of outfits and just act modest. It seems like most people just don'tt seem to care and they see some skimpy dressed woman who did a conversion...and just don't question it? Perhaps out of fear of breaking the commandment not to distress the ger tzeddek. While I don't say anything or speak publicly about these people, inside of me I don't know what to think. I am too afraid to think that they may not be Jewish....they went through a year's wroth of study and keep Shabbat. They seem happy as Jews. I don't want them to get hurt. Is it wrong to secretly suspect such people? I am by no means saying ever ger needs to be scrutinized (that's what the batei din is for). If one acts properly and is obviously observant it's one thing. But those the few gerim who do not act properly, act immodest etc.... how are they supposed to be treated? I believe that these ladies had good intentions during their conversion process and really want to be Jewish but never intended to "dress the part", in which case, is it even valid?  The fact that I question it makes me feel like the most awful person. I see these people once in a while, I act nice to them but I disapprove of what they do, definitely not friends either. Is it right to just not say anything at all?

[muman613]

Shalom IsraeliHeart,

I am sorry that there are such immodest converts in your community.

My first advice, which may not be the most practical, is that you should not bear any animosity toward them. Maybe their teachers did not emphasis the requirement that women dress modestly. Maybe they were taught but the community did not say anything, so they dressed as they wished. The most important thing, in my opinion, is to figure out a way to 'rebuke' them in a way which would change their outlook on the subject of tzniut.

I am not going to delve into the topic of whether their conversions are halachic... That is beyond my control and it is my approach to give the benefit of the doubt. Do you have a close relationship with a Rebbetzin? I personally make it a habit to become close with the Rabbi and find it helpful when trying to understand dynamics in the community. If you don't that is OK, but it would help if you could ask her about what you are discussing with us here.

It is praiseworthy that you are concerned about such matters. Do not let these kinds of issues deter you from working with your Jewish community. I know that most minyans have political issues, characters, attitudes, and other things... But I try to see everyone in the best light.

I hope Hashem helps you find a solution to this issue.

[Sveta]

Those are some good points, Muman. Thank you so much. I do have a rebbetzin, I could ask :)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  I wouldn't worry and concern myself too much about it. You asked if I would allow my children to marry such women (who aren't modest). Personally I wouldn't want my children to marry any women who aren't modest, be they born Jewesses or converts.
 Not sure about the Beit Din initially involved in the conversion, assuming the Beit Din is valid, once someone does a conversion they become Jewish 100%. EVEN if they then go to idolatry, they are Jewish and their conversion isn't invalid. The only issue would be if during the time of the conversion they didn't have any real intentions to convert.
 I wouldn't get into the question of questioning someone's conversion and what not, unless they are known to either belong to a unorthodox type of group who's intentions to begin with were and are wicked.

[ChabadKahanist]

  I wouldn't worry and concern myself too much about it. You asked if I would allow my children to marry such women (who aren't modest). Personally I wouldn't want my children to marry any women who aren't modest, be they born Jewesses or converts.
 Not sure about the Beit Din initially involved in the conversion, assuming the Beit Din is valid, once someone does a conversion they become Jewish 100%. EVEN if they then go to idolatry, they are Jewish and their conversion isn't invalid. The only issue would be if during the time of the conversion they didn't have any real intentions to convert.
 I wouldn't get into the question of questioning someone's conversion and what not, unless they are known to either belong to a unorthodox type of group who's intentions to begin with were and are wicked.

The Israeli rabbanut has invalidated  such conversions.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

The Israeli rabbanut has invalidated  such conversions.

 Which conversions? In which case? 
 
   Its not an easy thing to "invalidate" a conversion. If someone is accepted as a full Jewish Ger, they then cannot be dropped. I believe Rabbi Ovadia Yosef states so as well and this is the basic Halacha.

[Israel Chai]

Which conversions? In which case? 
 
   Its not an easy thing to "invalidate" a conversion. If someone is accepted as a full Jewish Ger, they then cannot be dropped. I believe Rabbi Ovadia Yosef states so as well and this is the basic Halacha.

If someone accepts a wife, you can't just dropping her. If shee lied and actually is a man, then it's not. If they didn't really accept the mitzvot, they're not Jews.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If someone accepts a wife, you can't just dropping her. If shee lied and actually is a man, then it's not. If they didn't really accept the mitzvot, they're not Jews.

 Did I say that they didn't really accept the Misswoth? And how is your example even remotely close?
  Its like our ancestors accepted the Torah, then down the line if someone isn't Shomer Misswoth properly does that then invalidate the accepting of the Torah on Mt. Sinai? Does one stop being a Jew?
 The question is and was if a Ger ACCEPTED the Torah but then made or is making some things that are problematic such as not dressing properly. If and when they went through the Gerut, and became full fledged converts, IF they then go astray and even worship idols that are still legally Jewish and are held by HALACHA.
 Now in a case where let's say a lady is not dressing properly, only later. Who is to say that her conversion is invalid AFTER she converted? If she converted, and was accepted (assuming the Beit Din is a valid one) and then does some problematic things she still is a Jewess. The fact that she might be wearing pants, does not mean that she should then be told that she isn't Jewish. If soo and he accepts this false statement and then as a result starts breaking Shabbat, the Averot are upon those "zealots" who encouraged such a person to, instead of encouraging and persuading (by those who can do so and would be affective) to dress properly and such.

[Israel Chai]

Did I say that they didn't really accept the Misswoth? And how is your example even remotely close?
  Its like our ancestors accepted the Torah, then down the line if someone isn't Shomer Misswoth properly does that then invalidate the accepting of the Torah on Mt. Sinai? Does one stop being a Jew?
 The question is and was if a Ger ACCEPTED the Torah but then made or is making some things that are problematic such as not dressing properly. If and when they went through the Gerut, and became full fledged converts, IF they then go astray and even worship idols that are still legally Jewish and are held by HALACHA.
 Now in a case where let's say a lady is not dressing properly, only later. Who is to say that her conversion is invalid AFTER she converted? If she converted, and was accepted (assuming the Beit Din is a valid one) and then does some problematic things she still is a Jewess. The fact that she might be wearing pants, does not mean that she should then be told that she isn't Jewish. If soo and he accepts this false statement and then as a result starts breaking Shabbat, the Averot are upon those "zealots" who encouraged such a person to, instead of encouraging and persuading (by those who can do so and would be affective) to dress properly and such.

If she accepted everything, then fell, she's Jewish. If she put her mini-skirt on after the mikveh, chances are she isn't really Jewish.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

If she accepted everything, then fell, she's Jewish. If she put her mini-skirt on after the mikveh, chances are she isn't really Jewish.

 Ok

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Guys also remember that their is Misswah to love the converts and many prohibitions in treating them badly. I think that their certainly is certain sensitivities that converts can have and that is why the Torah is very strict with their honor, respect and treatment.

[Israel Chai]

  Guys also remember that their is Misswah to love the converts and many prohibitions in treating them badly. I think that their certainly is certain sensitivities that converts can have and that is why the Torah is very strict with their honor, respect and treatment.

Like Rabbi Mizrachi said, it's the most repeated commandment, and it's equal to or greater than oppressing an orphan (huge sin) if you oppress or mislead them.

[muman613]

I was not aware it was the most often repeated command. I was under the belief that the command of Shabbat was repeated more. But this article clears that up...

http://rabbibuchwald.njop.org/2004/05/24/naso-5764-2004/

Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzchaki, 1040-1105, the foremost commentator on the Bible) immediately notes, “V’chee yaysh l’chah ah’dam b’Yisrael sheh’ain lo go’ah’lim?” Is there a person in Israel who has no redeemers, either a son or a daughter, or some related kin from his father’s family, tracing the relationship back to our forefather, Jacob?! Rather, concludes Rashi, this must refer to a convert who has passed on and has left no heirs. The Midrash in Bamidbar Rabbah (8:1, 2, 3) notes that this law underscores the special effort the Torah makes to protect proselytes, for they are in G-d’s eyes as beloved and as important as those born Jewish.

The mitzvah of loving and caring for the ger, the convert, is mentioned more often than any other mitzvah in the Torah–in fact, it is repeated 36 times! It is said that a society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable citizens. Therefore, the commandment to take care of the proselyte is preeminent in Jewish tradition.

Indeed, the Jewish people have greatly benefitted from, and been profoundly enriched by, those who have converted to Judaism. According to tradition, Shmaya and Avtalyon, the teachers and mentors of Hillel and Shamai, were converts (Gittin 57b). Unkelos, the foremost translator of the Bible was a convert as well. The grandchildren of Sisra, Senacherib, Haman and the Emperor Nero, were all converts to Judaism.

[ChabadKahanist]

Which conversions? In which case? 
 
   Its not an easy thing to "invalidate" a conversion. If someone is accepted as a full Jewish Ger, they then cannot be dropped. I believe Rabbi Ovadia Yosef states so as well and this is the basic Halacha.

This is correct & I do not remember the cases but it did happen.
They did invalidate several from Avi Weiss that I have heard but it was on Arutz 7 some time back

[Sveta]

I'm taking Muman's advice and giving these ladies the benefit of the doubt, I feel that their heart is and was in the right place, being Jewish seems to be a source of joy for them. Although I feel that anyone who goes through a year or two worth of a giyur process and live in Jewish communities would kind of know better. They see it around them every day. It's their choice not to but I hope it works out for them in the end. My problem is if during the conversion process people act  well behaved and modest and the moment they finish it's back to the pants and skimpy outfits. So, what I have to do is just not think about it and mind my own business and set a good example.
http://www.dinonline.org/2011/01/20/parashas-yisro-the-righteous-convert/

I think the biggest issue is the beis din people choose. Where I live there are 6 batei din but only 3 are recognized in Israel and one is a "maybe" recognized in Israel. It's people's choice which ones they choose. But what I don't like is hearing people say "only such and such court is the only one recognized in Israel" when I know it's not one on the Rabbinate's list and I don't know who is going around claiming it is the only one- giving out misinformation to potential converts and people who would marry them. The question is.... if someone does a conversion with "beis din F" (not recognized in Israel) and that person is able to get married in the US and send their kids to religious schools, but then that person goes to Israel and in Israel are told "we do not recognized the beis din you went through and we do not consider you Jewish" what are we to do? Can someone be Jewish in the US but not Jewish in Israel? (In terms with these ladies, I HOPE they are never in a situation like this and possibly the chief rabbinate would go on a case by case basis if they see the person was sincere and misled as to their beis din being recognized in Israel or not)

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

  Yea, its a totally sh^tty situation. A city or town shouldn't have 6 different Beit Dinim. A Jewish community should have 1 Beit Din, and that is all. Its completely ridiculous that their are different Beit Dinim with different rulings. This is not the ways of the Torah.