My argument with a missionary Jews For Jesus - did I do well?

[White Israelite]

 Topic: Why are you deceiving Jews?
Status: connected with Shoshannah
Shoshannah
Shalom ****
This is Shoshannah Weinisch from NYC.  Could you define the deception please?

me
Your using claim that Jesus was a Jew to try to convert other Jews by connecting the New Testament to the Tanach and turning Jews away from Torah and God
In Judaism there is never any mention of a messiah that will call themselves God or will die for our sins, infact God specifically states that no man can die for another mans sins

Shoshannah
The New Covenant is not mentioned in the film.  Just Isaiah 53.

me
Isaiah 53 doesnt refer to a messiah

Shoshannah
Yes, I suppose you believe it refers to the state of Israel?  What About Isaiah 7:14?
Have you had the opportunity to Read Dr. Michael Brown's Book. Jewish Objections to Jesus?

me
Thats a mistranslation it does not refer to a virgin but a young woman
The word Amah means young woman
in Hebrew
It was also used to address King Ahaz not referring to messianic times

Shoshannah
I understand the Alma argument.  Although earlier Jewish Rabbis agreed it was a "Virgin"  one who had not slept with a man.  Again, I wonder where the deception is in this film
Are you Orthodox?

me
I am a baal teshuva Jew who is upset with the deception I was lead into

Shoshannah
I see, were you once a professing believer in Yeshua who turned back to Orthodoxy?  Or a secular Jewish person who became Orthodox?

me
The point is, I have no issues with Christians or Christianity, but to dress up Christianity as Jewish and a fulfillment of Jewish prophecies is not correct, if all the criteria is not met for Messiah, then Jesus cannot be the Jewish messiah, Christianity claims that the Tanakh is their foundation for what connects the new testament but if you read the new testament and the tanakh, you will see many many cases where Jesus and his disciples "break away" from the Torah, and many cases where mistranslations are made in the Tanakh
Furthermore, Christianity professes the only way to salvation was through blood sacrifices and that Jesus is the only blood sacrifice however in the tanakh there are many verses that state God hates human sacrifices, not to eat or drink blood and that salvation was possible without blood sacrifice such as flour
*not salvation but forgiveness of sin

Shoshannah
I became a believer in Jesus at the age of 26.  I am Jewish, no intermarriage in my family.  I am now 60.  I was never interested in Christianity.  I was only interested in truth.  After studying Judaism I decided to read the writings of Jesus.  Just the book of Matthew.  I became a believer in Jesus.  That was in 1980.  It changed my life and I have a relationship with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

me
If that is what you are choose, then I am happy you have found what you want, but why use non scripture to turn other Jews away from the Tanakh and Torah do you really believe that we were condemned to hell without Jesus?

Shoshannah
Point taken on human sacrifice.  But Jesus is God, stepping into History, putting on flesh coming to be the final once for all Passover Lamb.  He is fully God man.  You never answered my question about your history.

me
There is forgiveness in the Tanakh
I am a Orthodox Jew, born non practicing and I've been approached by missionaries, I have turned back to Hashem
Where does it say Jesus is God?

Shoshannah
The law of Moses clearly states, "without the shedding of blood there is no remission/forgiveness of sin".  We have no temple no altar.  The Chagigah and Zoarah.  Don't meet God's standard for the Passover sacrifice.

me
If, however, he cannot afford two doves or two young pigeons, he is to bring as an offering for his sin a tenth of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering. He must not put oil or incense on it, because it is a sin offering. He is to bring it to the priest, who shall take a handful of it as a memorial portion and burn it on the altar on top of the offerings made to the Etrnl by fire. It is a sin offering. In this way the priest will make atonement for him for any of these sins he has committed, and he will be forgiven. The rest of the offering will belong to the priest, as in the case of the grain offering. [Leviticus 5:11-13]

Shoshannah
Do you know about Dr. Michael Brown's books?  Are you by chance in the NYC area?

me
Also this was a sin offering but not specific forgiveness of sins, an offering was an offering
I have further evidence of this
No I am in Florida
Seek the Etrnl while He may be found; Call upon the Etrnl while He is near. Let the wicked abandon his ways, and the evil his designs. Let him return to the Etrnl and He will have mercy upon him; let him return to our Gd, for He is ever ready to forgive. [Isaiah 55:6-7]

Shoshannah
Were you entering the chat to vent?

me
For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering. The sacrifices of Gd are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O Gd, thou wilt not despise. [Psalm 51:16-17] ...if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. [2 Chronicles 7:14] But if from there you seek the Etrnl your Gd, you will find him if you look for him with all your heart and with all your soul. [Deuteronomy 4:29]
no I want to see where in the tanakh is mentions Jesus
And according to the Tanakh it says that forgiveness can be found without Jesus, it says simply for a Jew to turn from their wicked ways

Shoshannah
I am acquainted with these Scriptures. I believe you are are armed with a defense to argue any evidence.  Jeremiah 29:13 indicates we will find G-d, truth when we seek Him with our entire heart.  It seems you already have determined the outcome and therefore are not seeking.

me
With all due respect, I have no issues with you, because I as a Jew have also gone through the exact same issues, and I know the missionary stance using Jeremiah, Isaiah, etc. to make a connection that Jesus is fulfilling of the Tanach, but I cannot believe something that is not proven in scriptures and has been based off mistranslations, if even one of the criteria is wrong, why should I believe in Jesus? There are so many cases in the Tanach that point to who God is.

Shoshannah
With a Whole Heart
Because He is God's anointed one who came to die for the sin of the world, first to us, the Jew, and in His mercy to the Goyim also.  God suffered because He loves man who is made in His image.  He is relational and longs to have a free-will relationship with His creation.  Us...

me
But we already have forgiveness of sin, it actually states that even flour at the temple can be used as a "offering" and that God has forgiven us since the time of Egypt and by turning away from our wickedness and calling on God alone, not through any representative or through a Messiah
check this out
God actually does not love sacrifices
For when I brought your forefathers out of Egypt and spoke to them, I did not just give them commands about burnt offerings and sacrifices, but I gave them this command: Obey me, and I will be your Gd and you will be my people. Walk in all the ways I command you, that it may go well with you. [Jeremiah 7:22-23]

Shoshannah
The Law was intended to show us we could not possibly fulfill it. And that we are dependent on the mercy and grace of God.  Mercy being defined as not receiving the punishment we deserve.  See Psalm 103:10  And Grace defined as unmerited favor toward us.
You are saying G-d changed his mind and stopped the sacrificial system?

me
i'm not saying that, the tanakh specifies that sacrifices were done as a sin offering
The Tanakh is specifying that a persons forgiveness of sins is more specific to what is in their heart, turning away from evil and repenting, unintentional sins usually required a sacrifice
But the mistranslation is that only blood must be used when that is not correct

Shoshannah
Okay so how do we as Jews have sacrifice/forgiveness of sin  today? Prayer, repentance and Good deeds?

me
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. [Psalm 32:1] When I kept silence, my bones waxed old through my roaring all the day long. [Psalm 32:3] I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Etrnl; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. [Psalm 32:5]
That is correct, infact there are many cases where someone is punished for sin and has to repay for their sins
I can give you some verses in Tanakh

Shoshannah
Right, so where is the covering coming from?

me
The covering is God, a desire for the heart to change and aknowledging/repentance of the original sin

Shoshannah
Can you quote scripture for this proof of forgiveness?  The law of Moses has been set aside?

me
A thief must certainly make restitution, but if he has nothing, he must be sold to pay for his theft... If a man grazes his livestock in a field or vineyard and lets them stray and they graze in another man's field, he must make restitution from the best of his own field or vineyard... If a fire breaks out and spreads into thornbushes so that it burns shocks of grain or standing grain or the whole field, the one who started the fire must make restitution... But if the animal was stolen from the neighbor, he must make restitution to the owner... If a man borrows an animal from his neighbor and it is injured or dies while the owner is not present, he must make restitution. [Exodus 22:3, 5, 6, 12, and 14]
This is referring to repaying of a sin, for example a theft
Say to the Israelites: `When a man or woman wrongs another in any way and so is unfaithful to the Etrnl, that person is guilty and must confess the sin he has committed. He must make full restitution for his wrong, add one fifth to it and give it all to the person he has wronged.' [Numbers 5:6-7]
in fact, if you read the curses of Dueteronomy it mentions that by turning away from Gods commandments that one is to be stoned to death which is absolutely correct, that is true and I can see why Christians would believe that there is no forgiveness in Judaism
However....check this out..

Shoshannah
Where in the Tanakh does it say God is our covering.  I see Him as the righteous Judge and Good Shepherd.  Not covering.....don't understand  where you find this
I am familiar with the content of the Jewish Bible.  Not answering the question of your accusation of this film being deceptive.

me
What does it say in Tanakh that Jesus or messiah was to be our covering for God?
Did King David or Moses pray to Jesus>?
Actually in the New Testament, it appears that "God" was wrong by giving moses the commandments?
2 Corinthians 3:7

Shoshannah
Read Exodus 12.

me
Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
That's not referring to a blood sacrifice, thats a sign during passover on the front of the homes

Shoshannah
why are you using the New Covenant?
It was blood at Passover.....

me
Yes but this is referring to Plagues
“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt.
not sin
There's a large difference in what it's referring to

Shoshannah
The blood on the top lint el and two door post was for the plagues?  Not in my Tanakh!

me
You sound knowledgeable in scripture, I suggest reading over the discussion we had, and I truely pray and hope you as a Jew go through baal teshuva and return to Hashem. G-d bless.

[Dr. Dan]

Waste of time.. Are you trying to change her mind?  She is already brainwashed.

Secondly, you should also argue from the Oral Torah.  Gd gave us the Written AND Oral Torah on Sinai.  These J for J people ignore every aspect of what Judaism truly is..not just on the interpretations they create to make them happy with their theology, but ignore another piece of the Torah.

Don't bother with these nuts.  They are bad news.

[Aliyah5]

ok here are some ideas on Judaism, Jesus and Israel. I will probably be banned for speaking on what I think is the hard political/religious/spiritual reality but whatever. BTW I am coming from the vantage point of being a former J4J who bought into all that repent from your way stuff and turn to 'The Real Religion'. I bought into it with all my heart and wanted to get back to 'the real deal' and made every possible sacrifice to move to Israel.
(We're talking about probably $10 million business I lost out on that I said nah my judaism is more important)

First, check out (delete) this guy actually beats Tovia Singer in a debate where Tovia said he would convert if he lost. Tovia is a good guy, I like him, but face it, he's probably partially in it to hang around Jewesses who are insecure about their religious identity.  He doesn't really refute J4J that well at all. Toviah appeals largely to ethnic pride.

Not saying that Jesus is the messiah but I do believe he has helped millions of non-Jews to live a better and more wholesome life.

I have lived in Israel get over the Jesus thing. It is kind of childishness the people yelling at eachother IMO. A lot of the teachings of the gospels are pure brilliance although the one thing that does bother me is the martyr messiah vs the warrior messiah but we know the warrior messiah hasn't really worked so far.

The whole teaching/attitude of judge not as shown by the Jesus story actually fits the religious reality of Israel pretty well when you consider the majority of young people and divergent opinions. I am a fan of people like bar kochba but the reality of a leader like that is probably basically insanity.

If you have met men in Israel who have big names and who have high regard from leaders as spiritual teacher types, some of them will tell you they actually believe in Jesus. Even if other people with less experience at being looked to as a leader grimace at the name, that is the truth. I've met Israelis over the age of 60 who have big leaders send their kids to learn with him and he's like f'it, I'm a christian.

Because the basic truth is, as I see it, that it is just about impossible to be the warrior messiah leader of Israel and be holy enough to build the temple and not get killed or go insane trying to do it. Anyone in the slightest bit extreme who gathers a following would face a very, very difficult task. The person to do it would probably have to be 100x more daring and brilliant than Kahane, possess complete rationality and have total religious zeal. We've just seen it over and over again in Jewish history and every time it is a failure.

Messianic Judaism, based on a belief in the return to Torah law of all Jews in Israel just doesn't fit with the personality of the majority of young Israelis. I'm sorry. The good people of Jerusalem who keep their bars open on shabbat evening would have anyone preaching this assassinated by the mob. Moschiac, the messiah who 'makes all Israel repent and observe religious law' as viewed by some jtfers, would be one of the least popular people ever to live in Israel...In fact, he would be despised! The sheer hatred directed at him by the secular population would drive him out of his mind.

As for the temple cult...a lot of prophets were already degrading it before Jesus came along.
Have you ever gotten close to the temple or the whole scene of what is going on there?
It is kind of ridiculous. I have met some of the young leaders, who are excellent Jews and great public speakers, but the closer you get to the core of this group, the more you will see how the prestige of aspiring to be part of the top of the temple cult distorts human personality. You can't 'keep it real', it is all about religious image. Although I have met 1 or 2 people who are potential leaders for this.

I'd love to see the Temple and the Ark as much as anyone here I've basically thought about it my whole life but if you get close to the religious/political reality you will see how difficult the issue is.

Is the temple and animal sacrifice really what Israel needs? Animal sacrifice is mostly paganism. I mean really. The whole capara thing is a joke...once you go down that road you are basically going into paganism and that whole mess of kabalistic/chasidic superstition. It's basically equivalent to Voodoo in my opinion, when looked at objectively.

The Christians have a valid point about it in my opinion but it wasn't just some 31 yr old dude named Jesus who thought of this, it was based on hundreds of years of the most hard core political and spiritual reality known and recorded by the Essenes who had seen generations of murder, intrigue and corruption surrounding the Temple Cult. Many lifetimes of experience in ancient Israel from hardcore, thoughtful and disciplined spiritual men are what built Christianity. Refute it if you want but the whole Temple cult never really succeeded.
Why would it be any different today? Has human nature changed? Would people not still be offing eachother for positions of high priest, scheming and plotting as bad as any power hungry person.

I went to Israel wanting to get rid of Churches and see the Temple rebuilt. Now I think it would be cool to have Christmas in Tel Aviv...line the streets with Christmas trees and holiday lights...make christmas a national holiday in Israel. if you grew up in America non-religious you know that Christmas is a great holiday. I think so anyways.

Anyways I like the idea of having both Moses and Jesus as equal prophets. That's basically what it comes down to. Mosaic law as the foundation and Jesus as the heavenly advocate for people who aren't fully observant.

What u want the coming of the messiah to be like the grinch who stole christmas from a billion goyim?

I simply don't understand why in the Jewish view of the coming of the moshiach, one religion has to be looked at completely at the expense of the other.

I think it would be funny if all Israelis put on the Santa Clause hats and laughed for the cameras. After all, we brought the entire religion to the world. Christianity was Israel's major gift to the world, arguably the major part of Israel's purpose. Based on the current religious orientation of the world, is it not a fair argument that the name of Jesus was ordained messiah at the foundation of the world.

Why don't we just write his  name 'Yeshua haMaschiach' on the cornestone of the 3rd temple and be done with it already.

I went to Israel with as much anti-christian zeal as any JTFer but after being there, maybe Israel could use Christianity. I quit professing christianity because as a Jew who has been through a lot, I have a hard time worshipping another Jewish man about my age as God...but maybe it is possible to separate the teachings from that part.

Also, as regards to the Biblical borders of Israel, granting Christians in the surrounding areas status as Israeli citizens is the only possible way I can think of to peacefully (or shrewdly) expand the borders of Israel. If we were to acknowledge Judeo-Christianity as the state religion and offered Christians in Lebanon and Jordan Israeli citizenship, perhaps that is the way to get the biblical borders back and make travel through these areas safer.

Do you think Israel will ever be populated by enough religious shomer shabbat Jews to cover the entire nile to euphrates land mass? I guess it could happen if the Bible says so, but then aren't we talking hundreds of years from now, with complete religious devotion if we are to believe what the Torah says: which is basically that you have to be a fully religiously observant nation to succeed in land expansion? Maybe it would come about through defensive war, but even in that event, how would we keep the land with granting people citizenship.

I dunno. But go there and look around...

Moses and Jesus - Accorded Equal honor as equally great prophets in the scheme of building the Third Temple. Moses who recieved the Torah on Sinai, guided the Jews out of Egypt and died on top of a mountain or something...and Jesus the prophet who walked into the heart of Jerusalem, died on the cross and was resurrected 3 days later.
Why can't we incorporate the name of Jesus into the third temple? It would sure make it easier working with the vatican? The teachings of Jesus as the foundation stone, the Holy Ark at the top. Something like that. He was as influential as David and Solomon.

Are we going to need the animal sacrifices? Or just the Temple without sacrifices as a national monument and house of prayer for all nations.

Anyways, my essential point is that it seems to me a tragedy that in the view of the 'afterlife' one religion has to be looked at as some sort of currency at the expense of the other. If you can't integrate these 2 religions successfully, there will probably never be a solution. It's like some sort of bad joke out of a jokebook about the gates of heaven.

BTW at this point I don't care if I would get stoned to death as a heretic for suggesting these things. I have been through more with the Jesus, Moses and Judaism and the 'maccabean' ideal of the temple issue in my life than I would care to express and from my experience living in Israel I don't see how religiously there could be any other solution.


Actually, it is the tragedy of my life. I'd rather be a 'Judeo-Christian' than have to choose either and I think the whole line that you can't be a J4J or a 'judeo-christian' and that it is like vegetarians for meat or whatever is a lie and a complete joke. As far as I can see, there was, is, and never will be any worldwide Jewish leader as famous as the name of Jesus Christ who conquered the entire world. Like it or not.

That alone should basically qualify him as messiah. The absolute asceticism and sobriety of the Crucifixion scene within the setting of the Temple is what makes Jesus the messiah of the gentiles and helps them escape sin. It is a sobering idea and it is a pretty good model for salvation and atoning sacrifice and in my opinion actually makes a lot sense when you think about it.

To base the Jewish messianic ideal on a denial of the fact the name of Jesus Christ has helped millions of people seems futile.

[kyel]

You knoow what Aliyah, you're right. Perhaps we could also write MUhammad's name on the third temple? I mean he did start a religion of a billion people so he could practically be the Messiah. Why don't we include Buddha and the Hindu gds also I mean they have 2 billion+ followers to

[Aliyah5]

first of all jesus was a famous jew and mohammed wasn't.
second christianity bears little semblence to hindu gods. there are 2 most popular prophets of the western bible which guides the most powerful nations moses and jesus. all i suggest is find a way to make them work in concert rather than discord. u really consider that is equivalent to suggesting putting hindu gods in the temple? is that so impossible. man this debate on judaism vs christianity is one sick thing. 20 centuries and no end in site.

[mord]

When Nathan confronted David with his sin ,David thought he should bring a sacrifice but Nathan said.
 And Nathan said to David, “The LORD also has taken away your sin; you shall not die.” (2 Samuel 12:13b).True [Repentance] Teshuva  is what you need for forgiveness.Tell Ms.Shoshana a sacrifice is not really needed

[Dr. Dan]

first of all jesus was a famous jew and mohammed wasn't.
second christianity bears little semblence to hindu gods. there are 2 most popular prophets of the western bible which guides the most powerful nations moses and jesus. all i suggest is find a way to make them work in concert rather than discord. u really consider that is equivalent to suggesting putting hindu gods in the temple? is that so impossible. man this debate on judaism vs christianity is one sick thing. 20 centuries and no end in site.

I will make this nice and simple:

 You're not practicing Judaism if you believe Jesus is the messiah or father, son and holy ghost.  All the power to any individual is believes in that type of theology..however, to believe in Jesus Christ, makes one a CHRISTIAN and never a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or anything else.  Someone who poses it as Judaism but claims otherwise, is either misguided, a damn right moron, or a big fat liar!!  My recommendation to Jesus believers, whether you have those that like to practice Jewish customs or Roman customs or Hindu customs or American customs, is to embrace that you are Christian. 

Enough of this crap already.  The sky is blue; not green.  So if you believe in Jesus as the messiah, then you are a Christian and practicing Chrstianity..whether or not you light the menorah on Chanuka or eat Matza on Pesach..or even where a kip and tzit tzit..you are still a Christian. If you want Judaism, then go to an Orthodox Rabbi who is like Rabbi Kahane who practices true Judaism and not the made up Judaism of the J for J or "Messianic" movements.

[nessuno]

I will make this nice and simple:

 You're not practicing Judaism if you believe Jesus is the messiah or father, son and holy ghost.  All the power to any individual is believes in that type of theology..however, to believe in Jesus Christ, makes one a CHRISTIAN and never a Jew or Muslim or Hindu or anything else.  Someone who poses it as Judaism but claims otherwise, is either misguided, a damn right moron, or a big fat liar!!  My recommendation to Jesus believers, whether you have those that like to practice Jewish customs or Roman customs or Hindu customs or American customs, is to embrace that you are Christian. 

Enough of this crap already.  The sky is blue; not green.  So if you believe in Jesus as the messiah, then you are a Christian and practicing Chrstianity..whether or not you light the menorah on Chanuka or eat Matza on Pesach..or even where a kip and tzit tzit..you are still a Christian. If you want Judaism, then go to an Orthodox Rabbi who is like Rabbi Kahane who practices true Judaism and not the made up Judaism of the J for J or "Messianic" movements.

In a nut shell.  You can't be a Jew for Jesus. 
 
 

[Dr. Dan]

In a nut shell.  You can't be a Jew for Jesus.

Or, if you are Jew, you should be practicing Judaism.  And if you believe in Jesus, it means you are practicing Christianity.  I mean, 5 year olds understand this, why can't anyone else get it?

[TruthSpreader]

Dr Dan is right.

[nessuno]

But why give this group any credence?
I grew up thinking of them as a joke.
I agree, Jewish people should practice Judaism.

Yet, you can't dictate to people what they should believe.

You can only live a good life and be an example of what it means to be a good Jew or Christian.

[White Israelite]

first of all jesus was a famous jew and mohammed wasn't.
second christianity bears little semblence to hindu gods. there are 2 most popular prophets of the western bible which guides the most powerful nations moses and jesus. all i suggest is find a way to make them work in concert rather than discord. u really consider that is equivalent to suggesting putting hindu gods in the temple? is that so impossible. man this debate on judaism vs christianity is one sick thing. 20 centuries and no end in site.

If you are a Jew and following Jesus, you are a Christian, as an apostate you would no longer be counted as a Jew until you gave up those beliefs and went through Baal teshuva.

After reading your post, that is a very disturbing thing to hear, I can only imagine every anti semite and Muslim would want nothing more than israel to be filled with churches and mosques with Christmas lights and Ramadan. I'm sure the day the Magen David is removed from the flag of israel with Christian Cross you will support that too.

The problem with you and other missionaries is you deny truth and I know how the missionaries work, they always use the same argument, and it's deception, they claim jews can't repent for their sins because the temple doesn't exist and claim blood is needed, they claim that jews broke the covenant, they claim Jesus was a Jew, they claim mistranslations of Jeremiah, Isaiah and other verses which don't even point to messiah, it's all built on deception and you have no idea how many jews who's lives have been destroyed because of jews for Jesus and the messianic jews, they are complete frauds making jews believe they can continue being Jewish and believing in Jesus and that is a lie.

It is my mission to make aware to every Jew who has fallen into this trap of deception of the evil j4j and messianic movement that they were lied too, deceived, and tricked. If you bothered to read my discussion, you can see j4j can't debate me because I proved them wrong with the scriptures, jews have always had repentance, forgiveness and a way into the world to come, and we don't need you missionaries to tell us there is another way, because any other way is idol worship.

It's true Jesus was considered Jewish , however, he was not the Jewish messiah and he is not our God, Jesus and his followers broke the sabbath, Paul put up his dirty laundry in public, and Jesus taught about breaking away from Torah, furthermore there was no peace in Israel after his death, there was more violence and wars than ever before which it is supposed to be a time of peace when the true Jewish messiah comes, the temple had not been destroyed and rebuilt, it already existed when Jesus was there. Jewish people do not believe in Jesus, what Christians believe is their beliefs but the Jewish people have our own covenant with God.

When a Jew completely understand Torah and the tanakh, we need nothing else other than to follow Gods commandments and love God with all our hearts.

[Aliyah5]

actually I think israel could use the symbol of abraham which is like the magen david but with squares. that is an all inclusive symbol which covers all abrahamic religions and I think a fair compromise when we speak of banners and greater Israel.

as far as j4j I am not a missionary...I guess I would just say that after my experience I'm anti-baal tshuva movement at least the way they portray tshuva. I think they too destroy lives with the phony commercials and propaganda they put out based on shallow religious appeal.  I know because I have been to the yeshivas and I have seen friend's lives destroyed by the religious environment. It doesn't make things better for a lot of people! Some of these people are every bit as dangerous as j4j!

I have had to pull friends out of bad situations. Young healthy Jewish men who may have led lives 'out of the fold' should not be thrown into situations were they are surrounded by religion 24/7. They should at least be warned of the dangers. Israel is difficult for people like me who are neither tzadik nor complete sinner because it is so polarized between secular and religious. There really isn't a healthy middle ground that I could find there.

It's ok I understand your disgust. I do not really like Christianity either that much but I don't see the model of becoming a 'baal tshuva' as a good model of repentance.

As far as Jesus breaking the sabbath...hmmm...fear of breaking the sabbath out of fear of divine punishment...I think that sucks. I agree, The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

[Rafoe]

I will summarize it for you in the most simple way:
The basic Of Christianity is that the Jews sinned, and as long as they dont receive the Kingdom of Jesus they will never return to Israel and certainly not achieve sovereignty there.
Vatican refused to recognize the State of Israel in the 50's, but somehow swallowed the pill.
Liberation of Jerusalem in the Six Day War was a pill that the Vatican could no longer swallow, which is why the Catholic Church supports passionately the two-state solution, which means delivering Jerusalem to Arab control.

I, as a Jew living in Israel, serves as proof that Christianity is false.

I remember that a year ago there was a German missionary in the Hebrew forum, and when i asked him to explain this fallacy and guess what....
He ran away 

I was so disappointed 

[Aliyah5]

eh forget it. I'm sorry. The truth is I am ashamed to profess christianity but don't have the strength or will to be a religiously observant Jew. I am not really pro-Jesus or pro turning the other cheek. I actually hate the concept. I'm just a dumb jock with some business skills.
I found myself in a situation here in the USA were I was forced to bear anti semitic insults and not respond to physical attacks when I had the physical ability to. My rights to self defense, privacy and free enterprise were constricted in a way that I felt was unacceptable. I took on the guise of catholicism and it worked well for a while. I only say I'm pro-christianity when I say I am pro rights to self defense unlimited free enterprise and competition the way christian society looks at it...basically pro-rights to be a first class citizen and use all of your potential without undue harassment. I am more in favor of beating someone half to death in a self defense situation than turning the other cheek. That's what it comes down to basically. The problem with American society vis a vis the Jew is that the majority have a hard time tolerating the physically robust competitive Jew. They have a hard time fitting it into their paradigm, just like the way they harass Israel politically. It simply cannot fit their view of the world. I do definitely believe the Torah came from Sinai and that the 10 commandments are divine but much of what I saw in the religious scene seemed very unnatural. I feel like I cannot repent or make sense of it and I don't think I could ever feel like a part of the religious scene.
The only thing I really think I could see myself as a part of is something like ancient Israel under the Davidic monarchy. At least if you were a young male you knew the standard. It's very confusing now. I don't see how the ideals of modern Israel and ancient Israel work together. Hmmm. It's  a riddle I cannot solve. Sorry for complaining...It's just a tough situation when you long to live the full and complete life of an authentic Israelite in Israel but you were born in America and have family here and feel you cannot escape the circumstances.

[Israel Chai]

I don't see how the ideals of modern Israel and ancient Israel work together. Hmmm. It's  a riddle I cannot solve. Sorry for complaining...It's just a tough situation when you long to live the full and complete life of an authentic Israelite in Israel but you were born in America and have family here and feel you cannot escape the circumstances.

"His truth endureth to all generations."

There's always a way out. Being in a kosher environment helps. Message me what you do in business, I'm working on the States, and may be able to help.

If I can't, G-d forbid contact Chabad in your area. Just talk to a Rabbi, ask questions, and see what it's like. "It's not in heaven to keep mitzvot"; G-d's way is easy. If it's not, there's something wrong, and it's usually easy to correct if you try.

[White Israelite]

are you a Jew that converted to Christianity? Are you American or Israeli? Were you born in the us? There is a way out and true Baal teshuva can always make a Jew a stronger Jew than before because of what's in your heart to be a Jew . you seem to compare modern Israel to ancient Israel, there are reasons today that isn't the case feel free to message me

You mentioned you used to be a j4j in one of your posts and you stopped, so obviously that's a step in the right direction, just magically coming back from Judaism isn't something that happens overnight, it comes down to understanding Torah and tanakh and why God gave is the commandments and what it means to be a jew. Obviously you as a former believer in Jesus, the Christians and even messianic movements make it very difficult for a Jew to really be a Jew, it comes down to confusion and is like a man that's been lobotomized trying to use full capacity of his brain. Messianics confuse Jews because they teach you can follow both Torah and the new testament which is impossible because they are then declaring Jesus wrote the Torah and the tanakh while also contradicting and making statements about how the tablets and the law are of the ministry of death and leading Jews away from being Jewish. This is why Paul preached to the gentiles because he said he couldn't preach to Jews who were under the law.

The other aspect is that messianics deny not only the Talmud  but still use tallit and tefellin which is not explained in detail in the Torah. The messianics also believe in the trinity which is polytheist and is against the teachings in the Jewish scriptures.

Jews that get involved in Christianity will be lead to believe they are a fulfilled Jew and that is not the case, many Jews who become Christians are trapped and while they may be smiling in the steets passing out flyers, spiritually and mentally many of those people are in extreme suffering and pain because they have now been locked into the church. It is said a Jew who is converted to Christianity is the ultimate treasure and are worth more than 1000 gentile souls because they can be used to convert other Jews.

I really urge you to watch the Jews for Judaism videos on YouTube and it will get you back in the fold.

By the way you mentioned tovia singers debates, I'm not familiar with tovia but I urge you to watch rabbi yosef mizrachis videos he had debated many missionaries and proven that dates and times are inconsistent and that the new testament doesn't match up with the tanakhs timeline and the chronology is in incorrect order. This isn't to bash our Christian friends but to understand Christianity and Judaism are two different religions.

I don't know what you mean by modern Jews but things changed over the years, it's true we don't have a king or temple right now but this will change, the kohen gadol and priesthood is being established with the temple institute.

What you mean by old Israel and new Israel, the differences are that society was a lot more religious and we had 2 Jewish kingdoms, Israel was constantly in a state of war, the Assyrians exiled our people and Ezra says our people took foreign wives, the amelkites and other enemies had existed and we were under roman rule, really not much changed other than the temple, our king, and technology. Are you referring more so to how Judaism is practiced today? Ancient Israelite living? Culture?

[Dr. Dan]

I think I have an answer to help you: anti depressants and a psychiatrist.

[Ephraim Ben Noach]

It's bait! And he is winning!  And he has already managed to pissed off a bunch of Christians in the process, by using you!

There was a reason there was Christianity in this world... It did do good over all, not for Jews, but over all..

I would also like Rubystars problem handled...

[Israel Chai]

yeah I did convert. I'm an american from california.
I actually went to chabad and had some good times with them but after all I don't feel that like I like chasidus at all. If you were raised on rap music, profanity, promiscuity and all the american culture it is very hard to reassimilate back into a wholesome family oriented outlook. I do like the chasidic Jews a lot though. I absorbed some of the worst of american culture into my outlook. It is in my heart that I'm Jewish but I don't even really like the mitzvot other than that I can intellectually grasp that the 10 commandments are perfect divine law.  I was a 6'1 240lb grappler raised on all non-kosher food. After spending time in the religious scene I lost my mind. Too much potential for judgementality based on superficial observance. I did teshuva, but I felt like it was actually a big step backwards from where I wanted to go. I like the maccabbee ideal in books but after trying it out I guess I'm a bit of a hellenist or something.  Most good I have ever learned about business and martial arts came from non-Jewish sources. I didn't particularly like walking through Jerusalem in fear of violating shabbat and I didn't like tlv culture that much either. I don't really know how I could fit into modern Israel culture.  I feel I had more in common with right wing Christian ideals than some Jewish ones. Actually I think it could be great to be an American Christian if u didn't have to worship a man just in terms of lifestyle. They are really blessed. I don't feel like any of the rabbis have the answers to help me lead the life I am looking for. To tell the truth, after everything, I'd probably rather just be a grappler, do honest business and marry a non-Jew.

As far as ancient israel vs modern...I dunno...something just doesn't feel right.
It seems like if there were a kingdom and a monarchy, the religious training would be more intuitive, society would be ordered more intuitively and life would be more complete and satisfying.

I liked that we were more barbaric in ancient times. Basically if a non-jew fucks with you too much in the land of Israel, you can get real satisfaction. It's like being a lion trapped in a cage socially. Man America sucks for Jews in a lot of ways.

I think maybe it comes down to sports and warfare and music...In ancient Israel we had our own culture...something just seems off having to watch basketball, football soccer leagues there and what not. It's a cultural thing. I don't know how to explain it.
I just kind of don't like it that much. Maybe the temple is what we need.

K well even I'm not really down to learn Chassidus, Torah or even Zohar was at least written much earlier, and you can spend a life learning that, so I'm not really getting into Tanya and all that, though I'm sure it's lovely, but really, none of the Rabbis 500 years ago were anything compared to our sages which could raise the dead and speak to animals, and, ya know, Hashem.

Chabad doesn't force you to become a Chassid. Many become MO after, they're no like haredim. It's just a great place to learn a little about Judasim.

Ironically, we share basically the same sorts of experiences you've described (maybe too weird), and no matter what, it's not just sports that are going to bug you, material existence in general is supposed to bother Jews, since if we're holy and G-d's sons, what are we here for? The answer is basically to sanctify and elevate the material world and make it holy, and as tough as it seems "first come the feet, then comes the heart" (Rav. Mizrachi), and no matter what, you'll never feel satisfied until you do your mission in life, and that's the overview of it.

Have you ever been to Israel, though? 10 minutes on a beach there, and I decided 100% I'm marrying a Jewish girl, and beating a bunch of soldiers in a [censored] fight in a pool with a hot soldier on my back made that iron in my mind. Besides, others won't get you, and the punishment Zohar describes for marrying a non-Jew is pretty harsh forever and ever.


I'm going to work on you now, so I need you to answer me: do you think that you're here to enjoy life?

[White Israelite]

yeah I did convert. I'm an american from california.
I actually went to chabad and had some good times with them but after all I don't feel that like I like chasidus at all. If you were raised on rap music, profanity, promiscuity and all the american culture it is very hard to reassimilate back into a wholesome family oriented outlook. I do like the chasidic Jews a lot though. I absorbed some of the worst of american culture into my outlook. It is in my heart that I'm Jewish but I don't even really like the mitzvot other than that I can intellectually grasp that the 10 commandments are perfect divine law.  I was a 6'1 240lb grappler raised on all non-kosher food. After spending time in the religious scene I lost my mind. Too much potential for judgementality based on superficial observance. I did teshuva, but I felt like it was actually a big step backwards from where I wanted to go. I like the maccabbee ideal in books but after trying it out I guess I'm a bit of a hellenist or something.  Most good I have ever learned about business and martial arts came from non-Jewish sources. I didn't particularly like walking through Jerusalem in fear of violating shabbat and I didn't like tlv culture that much either. I don't really know how I could fit into modern Israel culture.  I feel I had more in common with right wing Christian ideals than some Jewish ones. Actually I think it could be great to be an American Christian if u didn't have to worship a man just in terms of lifestyle. They are really blessed. I don't feel like any of the rabbis have the answers to help me lead the life I am looking for. To tell the truth, after everything, I'd probably rather just be a grappler, do honest business and marry a non-Jew.

As far as ancient israel vs modern...I dunno...something just doesn't feel right.
It seems like if there were a kingdom and a monarchy, the religious training would be more intuitive, society would be ordered more intuitively and life would be more complete and satisfying.

I liked that we were more barbaric in ancient times. Basically if a non-jew fucks with you too much in the land of Israel, you can get real satisfaction. It's like being a lion trapped in a cage socially. Man America sucks for Jews in a lot of ways.

I think maybe it comes down to sports and warfare and music...In ancient Israel we had our own culture...something just seems off having to watch basketball, football soccer leagues there and what not. It's a cultural thing. I don't know how to explain it.
I just kind of don't like it that much. Maybe the temple is what we need.

It sounds like you prefer not necessarily the concept of Christianity or belief in their God but rather the culture that surrounds it and the association to the right wing and would like to emulate the values you see in western Christianity in Judaism if I am understanding this correctly.

I'm actually really surprised the ministry of interior approved you to go to Israel but I have heard of cases of baal teshuvas being able to go to Israel including other messianics because they are not halachic Jewish but usually have a Jewish father.

The issues your associating with Judaism and modern israel is you are seeing things from our ancient history. You want to see a society where people fear the Israelites as they feared David, at that time we weren't a fully unified nation, and Jerusalem hadn't been conquered yet.

There are many cases where we were humiliated much worse because of Jews turning to false Gods and so by worshipping he God of Israel hashem and by putting our faith in him the glory days will happen again.

I've had many friends who are too radical for some of the synagogues and have been kicked out or treated badly because of their wealth so don't focus on those people, if you have a bad experience move on and just be jewish. If you really honor and respect king David and what our ancestors did, they would have stoned a Jew who started following pagan beliefs, they also would observe the sabbath, you can't have one peice of the pie and toss the rest. Israel in modern day has done some amazing things, Israel as a modern nation is still young and the Jews won through a miracle in 48 and 67 something that will be a part of history forever.

It sounds like what you really want is acceptance from others and assimilation to fit in, and if this is really what you want, you can have it, no one is stopping you but take word that it will be a lonely path because many Jews have done the same to realize is it worth giving up your identity, your Jewish soul and who you are for what other people think?

You can make the Jewish people proud by being unique but also honoring God and following the commandments, being Jewish had always been about being different, setting ourselves apart and being a light to the world. Funny how everyone wants to claim to be a Israelite now yet they don't want to honor the God of Israel. They hated us then for being different, the greeks hates the idea of a invisible God and the world hates us now for doing what's right and following the Torah and preserving our beliefs.

[Aliyah5]

It sounds like you prefer not necessarily the concept of Christianity or belief in their God but rather the culture that surrounds it and the association to the right wing and would like to emulate the values you see in western Christianity in Judaism if I am understanding this correctly.

>yeah I like doing business with born again christian small business owners they are generally honest and generous people and there are lots of them

I'm actually really surprised the ministry of interior approved you to go to Israel but I have heard of cases of baal teshuvas being able to go to Israel including other messianics because they are not halachic Jewish but usually have a Jewish father.

>no one really knew I was ever a j4j...I never really prozletyzed...I was wracked with guilt over my baptism certificate and the question never came up. I was probably the most Jewish out of my friends there in terms of both parents being jewish...a lot of families there have some christian orientation in their family

The issues your associating with Judaism and modern israel is you are seeing things from our ancient history. You want to see a society where people fear the Israelites as they feared David, at that time we weren't a fully unified nation, and Jerusalem hadn't been conquered yet.

>yeah pretty much...pax judea king david hurrah! also, I think the presence of the ark was a big part of that.

There are many cases where we were humiliated much worse because of Jews turning to false Gods and so by worshipping he God of Israel hashem and by putting our faith in him the glory days will happen again.

>yeah. I always laughed at false gods.

I've had many friends who are too radical for some of the synagogues and have been kicked out or treated badly because of their wealth so don't focus on those people, if you have a bad experience move on and just be jewish. If you really honor and respect king David and what our ancestors did, they would have stoned a Jew who started following pagan beliefs, they also would observe the sabbath, you can't have one peice of the pie and toss the rest. Israel in modern day has done some amazing things, Israel as a modern nation is still young and the Jews won through a miracle in 48 and 67 something that will be a part of history forever.

>yeah it is tricky there especially if u know kahanist doctrine. it is too easy to have a few drinks and start running your mouth but most of the jews are somewhat kahanist.

It sounds like what you really want is acceptance from others and assimilation to fit in, and if this is really what you want, you can have it, no one is stopping you but take word that it will be a lonely path because many Jews have done the same to realize is it worth giving up your identity, your Jewish soul and who you are for what other people think?

>actually I never really wanted that too much but it is halfway desirable. I actually think maybe some of the reform stuff may not be so bad in some ways I don't know.
as I said if u grew up here without jewish community for your young adulthood it puts you in a wierd position.

You can make the Jewish people proud by being unique but also honoring God and following the commandments, being Jewish had always been about being different, setting ourselves apart and being a light to the world. Funny how everyone wants to claim to be a Israelite now yet they don't want to honor the God of Israel. They hated us then for being different, the greeks hates the idea of a invisible God and the world hates us now for doing what's right and following the Torah and preserving our beliefs.

>What exactly are the commandments? are u talking about just the 10 commandments or the 613 mitzvot? What exactly is following the commandments, precisely. Can someone please tell me that???

[ChabadKahanist]

first of all jesus was a famous jew and mohammed wasn't.
second christianity bears little semblence to hindu gods. there are 2 most popular prophets of the western bible which guides the most powerful nations moses and jesus. all i suggest is find a way to make them work in concert rather than discord. u really consider that is equivalent to suggesting putting hindu gods in the temple? is that so impossible. man this debate on judaism vs christianity is one sick thing. 20 centuries and no end in site.

Actually you are wrong,Father Son & Ghost=Vishnu,Siva,Krishna.
I fail to see the difference.
Christianity is closer to Hinduism than to Judaism because of the trinity.

[Tag-MehirTzedek]

I will summarize it for you in the most simple way:
The basic Of Christianity is that the Jews sinned, and as long as they dont receive the Kingdom of Jesus they will never return to Israel and certainly not achieve sovereignty there.
Vatican refused to recognize the State of Israel in the 50's, but somehow swallowed the pill.
Liberation of Jerusalem in the Six Day War was a pill that the Vatican could no longer swallow, which is why the Catholic Church supports passionately the two-state solution, which means delivering Jerusalem to Arab control.

I, as a Jew living in Israel, serves as proof that Christianity is false.

I remember that a year ago there was a German missionary in the Hebrew forum, and when i asked him to explain this fallacy and guess what....
He ran away 

I was so disappointed 

    

[kahaneloyalist]

Aliyah5 is clearly J4J. This is a common missionary practice they pretend to be raised Orthodox, or baalei teshuva who have seen the truth of Jesus. Its just to trick Jews into listening to their poison.