Author Topic: Israeli "reality show" star in love with Sudanese Muslim, hates Ashkenazim  (Read 26156 times)

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Offline IsraelForever

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I will be upset if EveryJewA44 stops posting here (which I'm just reading now).  He's one of my favorite posters.  Off hand, I can't think of any post of his that I didn't wholeheartedly agree with.  I truly hope he reconsiders.  A poster of his caliber shouldn't let anyone's negativity, lies, meanness, etc. turn them away. 

Offline Israel Chai

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I will be upset if EveryJewA44 stops posting here (which I'm just reading now).  He's one of my favorite posters.  Off hand, I can't think of any post of his that I didn't wholeheartedly agree with.  I truly hope he reconsiders.  A poster of his caliber shouldn't let anyone's negativity, lies, meanness, etc. turn them away.

Lol, apparently I'm the whole forum today. What's more, not only am I the whole forum, but things I never said are everything that is being said about him here too.

I talk how I talk. I write a lot, so I make it funny so it doesn't bore everyone. C'mon, I was called a drug user, a goy, a nazi, a missionary, a mental person (mostly by Mr. Stinks and Rubystars, and not offended, but I never ever forget) and like a hundred other things before I even considered leaving.

I don't have the troll hunting experience you guys do, but I do know liberals literally pride themselves on their thin skin.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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LKZ,

I really care about you a lot and I know what you are trying to do in this thread. You explained very well why you cannot condemn her and I hope everyone else takes the time to understand what you have said.

Intermarriage is hurtful to the Jewish people, and it has happened in my family (and I even married a non-Jew from which I am currently divorced). I also understand how difficult it is and have mercy on those in similar situations.

I too do not wish death on her. But she is included in the curse on the informers and the heretics because at this time she is acting in a manner which appears to desecrate Hashem and his people. Although I have no intimate (or otherwise) knowledge of the case I usually trust Chaims opinion on this. Although he has now raised the threshold before he curses people (and I am so happy to observe this) I do not curse her name, only because she is in the category of informer.

You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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LKZ,

I really care about you a lot and I know what you are trying to do in this thread. You explained very well why you cannot condemn her and I hope everyone else takes the time to understand what you have said.

Intermarriage is hurtful to the Jewish people, and it has happened in my family (and I even married a non-Jew from which I am currently divorced). I also understand how difficult it is and have mercy on those in similar situations.

I too do not wish death on her. But she is included in the curse on the informers and the heretics because at this time she is acting in a manner which appears to desecrate Hashem and his people. Although I have no intimate (or otherwise) knowledge of the case I usually trust Chaims opinion on this. Although he has now raised the threshold before he curses people (and I am so happy to observe this) I do not curse her name, only because she is in the category of informer.

K well it's not "to the informers, malignant cancer". What exactly does "let there be no hope" mean?
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Israel Chai

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And yeah dude one of your lectures said that if you speak lashon hara you may have your zivug given to another. I'm not that strong. I almost lost it after I met some girl on fb, she gave me her number, we agreed to go out, and then fb kicked me out (after 5 years) and I lost everything. Then I made another fb acc, and she deleted her account, and I assume hates me. I don't know how to tell this to you, but if I'm not married at 40, I'm blowing my brains out. Even though it was sort of in a sex cult with goyim, all my brothers literally had sex vacations, and like now, I haven't been to work in two weeks, I still don't know how you guys do it, but literally all the manufacturing, the fact that I have written articles for many different industries, taking away the manufacturing advantage from the third world, and now a flying car (I can link privately if you care), in my head I care about it, but really I don't care about it, the only thing I really care about is other people, and I have 0 will to live without a woman. I'm not risking that for lashon hara. It doesn't even benefit me anyways. You guys can afford to risk whatever you want, it's life and death for me, and probably others I'll never know, and I can't afford to live like a slug.

Off topic, but after that I stopped keeping shabbat. I really want to and feel bad all week, but it's like I don't care. Helping people is great and all, but I need people to stay sane, and now that I can't flirt with the goyim from the other offices, I'm alone in the world, and I'd never speak again if that would change it.

The only thing that comforts me is seeing horrible things and deaths in horror movies. Maybe it's the misery loves company thing, or I'm thinking about someone else's problems. I'll psychoanalyze myself when I actually care about anything but meeting someone.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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LKZ why are you upset that everyone is calling this woman a traitor, which she is? Chaim himself stepped in to say so.

Offline mord

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Lets face it.How many Israelis or anyone else would want to come home and then wake up to that face. For that matter anyone, except for an illegal African immigrant .
Thy destroyers and they that make thee waste shall go forth of thee.  Isaiah 49:17

 
Shot at 2010-01-03

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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I don't understand how the accusation on sefardim can slide like that. Its completely false and twisted.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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I don't understand how the accusation on sefardim can slide like that. Its completely false and twisted.
What one?
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Chaim Ben Pesach

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בס''ד

This Jew-hating beast should die of cancer and every other disease under the sun. Then in the next world, she should also receive the maximum possible punishment.

This vile slut sleeps with black Muslim Nazis and hates her fellow Jews. She then preaches this Nazi Jew-hatred on an Israeli television "reality" show which has no problem with her views.

It is because we tolerate Judenrat beasts like this, there was a holocaust. If we did to our traitors what the Muslims do to theirs, there would never have been a holocaust.

Chazal warn us that those who are kind to the cruel are destined to be cruel to the kind. In other words, no mercy for the merciless. If someone has no mercy on their fellow Jews, we are forbidden to be merciful to them.

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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 :::D To make my self clear.. I'm not on the side of the sellout woman. My comments were directed toward LKZ and EJ44s fighting. Again :::D!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Israel Chai

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LKZ why are you upset that everyone is calling this woman a traitor, which she is? Chaim himself stepped in to say so.

I called her a traitor. I suppose Chaim may know more about her than me, but I can't wish death on her unless I know she knows the truth and fights against it. Better that truth be used for making friends than enemies. That being said, Chaim is really saying this for the sake of Torah. What you want is more important than what you say.

I don't understand how the accusation on sefardim can slide like that. Its completely false and twisted.

Out of hundreds I've met, one was like that. It was an untrue and offensive statement. The woman desn't even identify with Africans, she just feels bad for them because she's a liberal. The Sephardic Jews are usually the most sane when it comes to third world rejects.

בס''ד

This Jew-hating beast should die of cancer and every other disease under the sun. Then in the next world, she should also receive the maximum possible punishment.

This vile slut sleeps with black Muslim Nazis and hates her fellow Jews. She then preaches this Nazi Jew-hatred on an Israeli television "reality" show which has no problem with her views.

It is because we tolerate Judenrat beasts like this, there was a holocaust. If we did to our traitors what the Muslims do to theirs, there would never have been a holocaust.

Chazal warn us that those who are kind to the cruel are destined to be cruel to the kind. In other words, no mercy for the merciless. If someone has no mercy on their fellow Jews, we are forbidden to be merciful to them.

Whoever produces that show, though I know nothing of them, should die a painful death, because they spread this evil. The woman is doing it, but I don't know if she's evil by choice or by ignorance. The seculars could have murdered her with lies long ago in a kibbutz. I can't condemn something done in the name of Torah, but for me to repeat this without knowing the facts is not righteous, and G-d forbid someone judge me in the same way.

Lets face it.How many Israelis or anyone else would want to come home and then wake up to that face. For that matter anyone, except for an illegal African immigrant .

There's a number of sins written all over her face, but she kind of looks like a more elderly cousin of mine, so she's not exactly hideous, and she has a zivug among her people that was announced before the creation of the world.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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This woman isn't a garden-variety traitor. This is a monster who actually wishes harm on her fellow Jews. I don't know what else you want her to do to prove to you that she is scum--wave a Nazi flag around? Chant "Heil Hitler" on her show? She is the lowest of the lowest of the low. Show me where I made an offensive statement. I said that although this woman is an extreme example many Sfaradim/Mizrachim identify as "nonwhites". I did not say that they are all traitors whatsoever and you have no right to put imaginary words into my mouth. Maybe other people will humor your nutty rants, but I won't.

Offline Israel Chai

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This woman isn't a garden-variety traitor. This is a monster who actually wishes harm on her fellow Jews. I don't know what else you want her to do to prove to you that she is scum--wave a Nazi flag around? Chant "Heil Hitler" on her show? She is the lowest of the lowest of the low. Show me where I made an offensive statement. I said that although this woman is an extreme example many Sfaradim/Mizrachim identify as "nonwhites". I did not say that they are all traitors whatsoever and you have no right to put imaginary words into my mouth. Maybe other people will humor your nutty rants, but I won't.

Lol ok stinks. My point is that I don't know anything about her. Nakba certificate-holding traitors have made teshuva and become loyal Jews.

Lol I wish I was still talking to the other guy. He just made straw man arguments. You are accusing me of accusing you of something I didn't accuse you of, and are putting imaginary accusations in my mouth while accusing me of putting them in yours.

Anyways I don't consider your worth as anything, so say what you want about me, it's barking to me, but don't pretend that you know what Sephardic Jews identify with, because they clearly almost always identify with Israel, outside of some completely secular ones raised in America, and either way, its fallacious and wrong to say not identifying as a white person makes them attracted to Africans, firstly because they're black, and secondly because even if they did identify with everyone in the Middle East, for example, it wouldn't make them want to marry and become them completely.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Let me chime in again..  I truly respect Chaim's statements.  Anybody who shows sympathy, compassion or respect for this bloodsucking whore has no place in the Kahanist movement.. That's for d*mn sure..    I say anybody who sympathizes with race traitors like this scum sucking whore should be considered as much of a traitor as she is..       The Shoa would not have been possible without a good supply of Judenratt who sold out their own race by thinking they would be respected by our enemies.

Ok, I have had enough drama, I just wanted to chime in here...
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline Every Jew AK47

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I will be upset if EveryJewA44 stops posting here (which I'm just reading now).  He's one of my favorite posters.  Off hand, I can't think of any post of his that I didn't wholeheartedly agree with.  I truly hope he reconsiders.  A poster of his caliber shouldn't let anyone's negativity, lies, meanness, etc. turn them away.

Thank you IsraelForever.. Wow, I really appreciate your statements..  Maybe, I should overlook the few people here like LKZ and Avraham Ben Noach who insult me and stick it out here ..  Avraham Ben Noach's attack, belittling me, saying I am on the computer on Shabbat, even without evidence, coming from a goy, just infuriates me.     Both these shm*cks I will just be better off ignoring.

I know this forum has a lot of potential and there is a lot of inspiring and helpful material and posts here..  Indeed, we need more vigilant, devoted and diligent Jews to stand up and defend our race.  That is the essence of many of my posts.  Yeah, the feeble-minded, bleeding heart, liberal Jew will hate my guts and I am sad to say, that even in Orthodox circles, many Jews have latched onto the liberal, self-hating mindset.  That is what I am seeing.  I apologize if people are offended that I am not here to write loving, pampering and compassionate posts of the Jewish community.  I just write what I feel is in my heart and know it may not be politically correct or accepted by the majority of people.  I am here to speak out for justice and truth, I don't care if people deem me judgmental, cruel, unloving, insensitive, etc when I feel the safety of our race and nation is in jeopardy.

 Also, people like Muman and others really do help me with their teachings of halacha, especially in relation to the Kahanist mindset.    His and all other knowledgeable people here, like him, who take the time and effort with Bible and Talmudic teachings, should be respected.
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline muman613

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I will repost the following article which discusses the concept of 'Rebuke' according to our Holy Torah's teachings.

I think it is relevant concerning when it becomes acceptable to curse Jews who have become enemies of our people. It is something which is much more common today than it was 100 years ago. We have the curse in the Amidah prayer against informers and heretics who do damage to the Jewish people.

We should not curse others for things which we may have problems with ourselves. This I believe is why some people have not joined in condemning this case. But even if we are not perfect we should be able to recognize that if a person joins the enemy and starts making public the enemies hatred of the Jews, then it is a chillul Hashem against the entire Jewish nation. We should hope that the person turns around and makes amends for their grave transgression.

The Torah implores us to rebuke our neighbor for their sins, and we should keep rebuking them up to a point before we consider them wicked and curse them. The general principles is not to curse others, but in order to prevent an evil person from accomplishing his or her goals and to warn others of the evils of this person, it may become acceptable to curse them publicly.

It is a fine line which we all should try to comprehend. We should not flippantly start cursing people we don't like. It cheapens the idea of curses, and it is dangerous because of things LKZ discussed (increasing judgment and scrutiny on your own transgressions).

From Rambams laws:



http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/ch6law7b.html

Chapter 6, Law 7(b)
By Rabbi Dovid Rosenfeld

True Friends

"If one sees his fellow sin or following an improper path, he is obligated to return him to the better [path], and to inform him that he is sinning to himself with his evil ways. [This is] as it is stated, 'You shall surely rebuke your fellow' (Leviticus 19:17).

"When one rebukes his fellow, whether in matters between the two of them or in matters between him [the sinner] and G-d (lit., 'the Omnipresent'), he must rebuke him privately (lit., 'between him and himself'). He should speak to him gently, in a soothing (lit., 'soft') tone, telling him that he is only saying this to him for his benefit and to bring him to the life of the World to Come.

"If his fellow accepts his words, it is good. If not, he should rebuke him a second and third time. And so too, he is continuously obligated to rebuke his fellow until the sinner hits him and says to him 'I will not listen.'

"Anyone who has the ability to prevent [others from sinning] and does not prevent [them] is held to blame (lit., 'grabbed') for the sins of all those he could have prevented."

Last week we discussed one of the key concepts of this law -- that we must rebuke our fellow with kindness and compassion, so as to make it clear to him we mean his best. We saw that this too is G-d's way in dealing with mankind -- that even while punishing us He tempers His justice with compassion, sending us clear messages that He's still there watching over us.. And this is His way of telling us that although He is now dealing with us harshly, He is doing so mercifully, as a means of leading us to repentance, rather than venting His own Divine wrath.

As an important aside, this principle is discussed in Jewish law. Theoretically whenever you see a Jew doing something wrong -- even a complete stranger -- "You shall surely rebuke your fellow" would seem to obligate you to step forward and inform him of his error. However, most people would not take kindly some stranger coming along and butting into their affairs. Thus, practically, we generally only rebuke those with whom we have some sort of relationship, who we know will be amenable to constructive criticism (see Be'er Halacha 608, s.v. "chayav l'hochicho").

The Rambam continues (based on Talmud Erchin 16b), that if one's fellow does not accept his rebuke, he must continue to tell him off, basically until the sinner strikes him or the situation otherwise gets utterly out of hand. This seems a little strong. I could imagine getting up the guts to rebuke my fellow once -- and that in itself is not easy -- but if he brushes it off with some non-answer as most people do, I can't really imagine trying again -- and again and again. I mustered up the courage to politely and passingly mumble something to him once . If he doesn't want to take up on my suggestion, it's now his own problem.

(By the way, I've had occasions in which people criticized me and I brushed it off at the time -- only to reconsider later and improve on account of it. Most people will respond with a reflexive defensiveness when challenged (usually accompanied with some stupid deflective or self-deprecating wisecrack) but may very well come to their senses shortly after.)

I believe, however, an important distinction is in line here. The Talmud, in obligating us to rebuke our fellow, was assuming our fellow knew full well he should be behaving better. He knows G-d is watching over him and judging his every act. He knows he is sinning and should not be -- just that he either cannot control himself or is not allowing himself to think. (Alternatively, our fellow may be sinning out of ignorance, but would be more than happy to have another enlighten him and correct his error.) All such a person needs is a caring friend to basically give him a swift kick in the pants, knocking him back to his senses.

Such a person will actually probably be grateful to his fellow for forcibly helping him out of his rut. Even if he's kicking and screaming the entire way and seems totally unreceptive to your words, he knows deep down his behavior isn't appropriate. He knows he should break away. And if you bang him on the head enough times, he'll be *happy* that you brought him back to his senses.

(See also for example Mishna Erchin 5:6 and Gittin 9:8 that if a husband refuses to grant his wife a divorce (when he is obligated to), "we force him until he says he wants." According to Jewish law, a bill of divorce must be granted willingly by the husband. Yet if we beat him senseless until -- Viola! -- he all of a sudden realizes he does too want to give it, that is acceptable -- because deep down a Jew really wants to do G-d's will. It just sometimes takes a little prodding to get him in touch with his true wants.)

Needless to say, the situation is very different today. We could hardly say every Jew we meet really wants to keep the Torah to the letter but just cannot restrain himself -- and just needs a little tough-love medicine to bring him back to his senses. Tragically, the vast majority of Jews have virtually *no idea* what Judaism is and what they're missing. (And even if they have *heard about* traditional Judaism, we would hardly say that they really know what it's all about. They might have heard that there are these archaic winter-clothes-wearing "Ultra-Orthodox" Jews in Jerusalem who throw stones at cars on the Sabbath and beat up women who dress immodestly -- it hardly helps having PR about as good as the Taliban.) Forceful persuasion would hardly benefit the situation but would likely turn off the unaffiliated even further.

As an interesting aside, the Talmud cannot even envisage Jews who know virtually nothing about Judaism -- who have never even *heard* of the Sabbath, holidays and dietary laws in any serious way. How can a Jew -- no matter where he lives and whom he was born to -- not even *know* that we don't eat seafood or open our stores on the Sabbath? The Talmud occasionally discusses such a case theoretically, referring to such a person as a "baby who was taken captive." Must have been someone who was kidnapped by pirates as an infant, to be whisked off to some exotic island in the South Pacific.

Thus, practically speaking, the mitzvah (obligation) to rebuke as the Sages envision it is far less relevant today than it once was. In fact, the scholars of the Talmud themselves commented that few in their generation are up to receiving rebuke -- and few are sincere enough to properly administer it (Erchin 16b). It takes a great person to admit to his faults and yet another great one to truly and genuinely point them out. I believe it was R. Yisrael Salanter (great scholar and ethicist of 19th Century Europe) who commented that his teacher, the holy R. Zundel of Salant, was one who could sincerely tell people off, but that he could not see himself doing the same.

And so, rebuke, done properly, is relegated to the domain of a chosen few. We can do it only to those we know and love, and only to those who are both amenable to constructive criticism and who know we truly care about them. I will conclude though, that I hope we all have such people in our lives. There is nothing more instructive and enlightening than having a close friend tell you what's wrong with you -- and your being such a close friend for another. As we get on in life, we realize that our friends are not the fellows we joked with in the back of the class in college. (As I heard R. Motty Berger (www.aish.com) once comment, if we so much as remember their names a year later, we're doing better than most.) The friends that stick with us in the long run are the ones we opened up to, we developed true relationships with, and we shared and grew with. Those are the type who can both see our faults and who care enough to tell us about them. If we have a few such in our lives, we must cherish them. For they are our best hope for true fulfillment.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Every Jew AK47

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Maybe, I am a bad Jew for saying this, but Jews who conspire with our enemies should be plunged with a sword, as traitors were in the times of the kings and patriarchs.  I know I am insensitive , uncaring , and not compassionate, but our nation is in jeopardy of destruction and we are selling off all our land to our enemies, the Crusaders: Muslims, Anti-Jewish Catholics, Anti-Jewish Orthodox Christians, Anti-Jewish Lutheran/Calvinistic Christians.


Here is what I have to say in a nutshell:
DEATH TO ALL TRAITORS!!!!!
Please keep the Kahanist movement strong and free of internal strife and drama.

Offline muman613

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Here is what Rambam says about Informers:

http://www.torah.org/learning/mlife/LOR3-12.html



Maimonides on Life
Collaborating with Gentile Authorities
Chapter 3, Law 12


"There are two types of informers (lit., 'giver overs,' Heb: 'moser'): (a) One who gives his fellow over into the hands of the Gentiles to kill him or to hit him. (b) One who gives his fellow's property to the Gentiles or to a seizer who is [considered] as a Gentile. Neither [type of person] receives a share [in the World to Come]."

For the past several weeks, we have been covering the Rambam's very short list of sinners so evil as to merit no share in the World to Come. This week the Rambam discusses the informer, one who turns over his fellow Jew to the temporal authorities.

In rabbinic writings and throughout the ages, the "moser"/informer has been considered one of the most evil and despicable characters in Israel, the Jewish Benedict Arnold who sics our worst enemies on us. Either to avenge his own petty hatreds or to curry favor with the authorities, he snitches on his fellow Jews, generally giving the all-too-willing authorities all the excuse they need to go in for the kill.

An important counterpoint to this is in line. Judaism is not against informing because it makes it difficult for Jews to evade the law. Abidance to the secular law is a Torah obligation ("dina d'malchusa dina"). Jews are obligated by the Torah to pay taxes and obey the law of the land. Rather, informing is viewed so negatively because throughout most of our history, informing on a fellow Jew was tantamount to killing him -- as well as endangering the greater Jewish community once suspicion is aroused on its behavior. Not only is snitching in itself viewed as a very lowly and cowardly act, the danger is real, immediate and more than likely to get terribly out of hand.

In more recent years, scholars have debated to what extent this law applies today. Some are of the opinion that the law is virtually inapplicable in countries whose governments serve to uphold just laws rather than capriciously oppress and discriminate. Others are less sure of this -- arguing in part that although many governments today are just (for the most part), the punishments they administer may not be justified according to Torah law. Incarceration, for example, in itself very dangerous, is almost never warranted in Jewish law. According to virtually all opinions, however, if a person is a direct danger to society -- say a physically-abusive father -- the authorities must be involved almost immediately.

(It should be noted that throughout our history there have been many societies in which the Jews were given a fair degree of legal autonomy -- the authority to rule over religious issues in particular, but almost never were they granted a police arm to enforce the courts' decisions. To enforce compliance, courts would often resort to such means as applying social pressure to the recalcitrant -- ostracizing him from the Jewish community. Yet there was much less they could do against a person who posed a physical threat to his surroundings. For such, the temporal authorities would generally have to be involved.)

Throughout history, there have been fascinating, if tragic, applications of this law. There is a Mishna (Terumos 8:12) which discusses the following scenario. A group of women are out standing together. A gang of Gentiles approaches them, saying "Hand over one of you or we'll violate you all!" Are they permitted to willingly cede one for the sake of the many? Or should we never go along with the evil wishes of such people in any way, regardless of the consequences?

Needless to say, scenarios of this type have repeated themselves throughout history more times than we'd care to know. During the Holocaust the Nazis, in the process of liquidating the ghettos, would require of the Judenrat the orderly handing over of say, 1000 people a day for "deportation". Failure to comply would result in not only the deaths of the Judenrat members and their families, but perhaps the wholesale and immediate destruction of the entire ghetto. Should they comply in the hopes of slowing down the process? Or should they never condescend to collaborate with the enemy?

Of course, far be it from us to judge the behavior of people in such trying and tragic circumstances. As might be expected, there were those refused to cooperate in any way, shape or form, there were those who collaborated in the sincere hope they were ultimately helping the Jewish cause, and there were those who collaborated primarily in the hope of saving their own skins at the expense of their brethren. In fact, many who did collaborate subsequently committed suicide -- on account of the terrible burden of guilt placed upon them, and especially once they recognized that all their noble efforts were utterly futile.

What I *will* do below, however, is offer a few of the primary relevant sources, providing some of the basic framework underlying so difficult and tragic an area of Jewish law.

Returning to the case I quoted above, in which a Gentile gang demands a Jewish girl, the mishna concludes: "Let them violate them all, and let not one Jewish soul be handed over."

It thus seems fairly open and shut. We may never collaborate with the Gentiles whatever the consequences. We may never willingly hand over a single Jew to the enemy come what may.

We must now, however, turn to a second relevant source. In II Samuel 20 we read of Sheva ben (son of) Bichri, who fomented a rebellion against King David. Towards the end of the chapter, he was besieged in the town of Availa which sided with him. Yoav, David's chief general, came with his men to destroy the entire rebellious city. A wise woman -- whom the Midrash identifies as the extremely long-lived Serach daughter of Asher (whom Jacob had earlier blessed with a long life) -- called out to Yoav asking why he wanted to destroy an entire city on account of one man. Yoav demurred, stating that he was really only after Sheva ben Bichri. The townsfolk, on the wise woman's behest, delivered.his head and the rebellion ended with minimal bloodshed.

The classical commentators deduce an important law from the above episode. Yoav was prepared to destroy the entire city of Availa for harboring a rebel to the throne. In the eyes of the townsfolk, who sided with Sheva, Yoav was the temporal authority wrongly demanding one of their number. Could they deliver him over? Does not the Mishna state that a Jew must never be unjustly handed over the the authorities? Yet that is precisely what they did in order to save themselves! What was their justification?

(Note that although the Availites (whatever) were engaged in open rebellion against the King of Israel, the commentators assume we can infer Jewish law from their behavior -- especially from that of the wise woman at their helm. They may have been wrong about Sheva, but the general assumption is that the behavior of the Israelites was fully in accordance with Jewish law.)

Many of the commentators, based on a source contemporary to the Mishna, answer based on the following distinction (see Rashi and Yad Ramah to Talmud Sanhedrin 72b). In the case in Scripture, Sheva himself was holed up in the city with the townsfolk. Had Yoav attacked, not only would the rest of them have perished, but he would have as well. Thus, it was not a matter of handing over one Jew in order to save others. It was a matter of either having him *plus* them killed or having him alone killed. The wise woman rightly realized nothing would have been gained by sacrificing them all.

By contrast, in the case of delivering a woman to the Gentiles, the Gentiles were not asking for a specific woman; any one would have done. And if the women would not comply, they were going to attack them all. Well, perhaps the Gentiles would have been sated without violating every last one of them. If so, willingly handing over a single one is not a case of violating one versus violating all. It is a case of handing over one woman who may have been spared in order to protect the others. And that the Sages never condone.

This discussion actually gets far more complex than this first taste of Talmudic logic. And likewise the application to Holocaust scenarios is far from clear. (Would they have all been killed or deported had they not complied? Perhaps some of those who would have been delivered would have managed to save themselves. Or perhaps refusing to comply would have confused and slowed the entire process. Usually not really answerable questions.) Regardless, I will not attempt to build further upon this discussion. I thought, however, it was valuable to provide this brief introduction into the process of determining Jewish law in so sensitive an area -- as well as appreciating both the legal and ethical dilemmas Jews, both simple and great, have been faced with throughout the ages.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14

Offline Israel Chai

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Let me chime in again..  I truly respect Chaim's statements.  Anybody who shows sympathy, compassion or respect for this bloodsucking whore has no place in the Kahanist movement.. That's for d*mn sure..    I say anybody who sympathizes with race traitors like this scum sucking whore should be considered as much of a traitor as she is..       The Shoa would not have been possible without a good supply of Judenratt who sold out their own race by thinking they would be respected by our enemies.

Ok, I have had enough drama, I just wanted to chime in here...

Again, you're putting out the right ideas while saying all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons. "Race-traitors" is not a Jewish concept. I wish that all black Jews find husbands and wives of any race, so long as they're Jewish. You have a story in Talmud where a Jewess married a Greek, and desecrated the alter of Hashem, which comparatively makes this woman a tzadekette, and the Rabbis in the Talmud still take great pains to show that the story is not (G-d forbid) to curse a fellow Jew, but to show that even the worst Jew still has love for her people, because she called Hashem a wolf while desecrating the altar as the Greeks massacred our people.

We are obligated to love our fellow Jews, and no Rabbi gave me permission to wish death on them. Maybe you guys are so righteous you can say these things and not worry about Hashem punishing your sins first, but I'm not going to pretend like I'm even 1% good, so it's not for me.

According to Rav. Ovadia Yosef, religious Jews who kept mitzvot were also allowed to be killed in shoah because they did not try to make their fellow Jews religious. Maybe they wished death on them, and felt very justified, because really, they started the reform movement, and every logical reason to curse them is there, and by the laws of nature, that's the proper thing to do. Yet, we're above all that. I would wish that she find a good seminary for women, and become a tzadikette, because I have no way of knowing if she's just a brainwashed girl who needs help, or a devoted traitor.

Torah prophesies shoah, and doesn't mention all the logical things we see here, it only says they will turn away from my mitzvot. They are the solution to healing the Jewish people, not killing the bad ones, because if every unrighteous Jew was executed like they deserve, we'd both be dead, and it would be the biggest shoah in our history. Traitors are one thing, and even an ignorant soldier who kicks a Jew out of his home should get what he deserves. Some freak on a t.v. no one watches can't change much, but changing her will bring as many people to Yiddishkeit as turning her into a martyr would cause people to leave it.

Rabbi Kahane never said he wanted to kill Jews like this, and they were just as bad, when he becomes PM, he said he loves them.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline Ephraim Ben Noach

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ROUND 2!
Ezekiel 33:6 But if the watchman see the sword come, and blow not the horn, and the people be not warned, and the sword do come, and take any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at the watchman's hand.

Offline Lewinsky Stinks, Dr. Brennan Rocks

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EJA44 and Chaim are TOTALLY correct.

This woman is no longer Jewish. She is karet. She is a rodef. She is worse than Gentile Nazis. If she and Eichmann were trapped in a burning building and I were forced at gunpoint to save one of them, I won't answer who I would save. THAT is how satanic this whore is, ok?

End of story.

Offline Tag-MehirTzedek

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  I didn't follow this whole thread but 2 things I would like to say.
 1)  I don't like the thinking that Sefardim look at themselves as part of the 3rd world. That's completely not true.
 2) She going with him is completely wrong for her, but this isn't always the worst thing (not for her personally but for Am Yisrael). A healthy body needs to expel the garbage out. I just hope that she leaves the land of Israel and doesn't associate at all with Am Yisrael. May her and other trash like that just vanish permanently from Am Yisrael. Perhaps this is one of the bad parts of having Israel especially when its run by the garbage. Hard to recycle (or sh^t) them out. Its like a bad dose of constipation but at least eventually it get's out completely.
.   ד  עֹזְבֵי תוֹרָה, יְהַלְלוּ רָשָׁע;    וְשֹׁמְרֵי תוֹרָה, יִתְגָּרוּ בָם
4 They that forsake the law praise the wicked; but such as keep the law contend with them.

ה  אַנְשֵׁי-רָע, לֹא-יָבִינוּ מִשְׁפָּט;    וּמְבַקְשֵׁי יְהוָה, יָבִינוּ כֹל.   
5 Evil men understand not justice; but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Offline Israel Chai

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  I didn't follow this whole thread but 2 things I would like to say.
 1)  I don't like the thinking that Sefardim look at themselves as part of the 3rd world. That's completely not true.
 2) She going with him is completely wrong for her, but this isn't always the worst thing (not for her personally but for Am Yisrael). A healthy body needs to expel the garbage out. I just hope that she leaves the land of Israel and doesn't associate at all with Am Yisrael. May her and other trash like that just vanish permanently from Am Yisrael. Perhaps this is one of the bad parts of having Israel especially when its run by the garbage. Hard to recycle (or sh^t) them out. Its like a bad dose of constipation but at least eventually it get's out completely.

Well the kids will be Jewish. And Torah says, little monsters. This is a tragedy. Trash or not, if her zivug was announced in heaven before she came to the world, Hashem clearly wanted her to marry a Jew, and that is what would be good. Nothing short of right is right and what's not right is wrong. Saying that massive intermarriage of sick Jews is even a worse strategy to save the Jewish people than mass murder.
The fear of the L-rd is the beginning of knowledge

Offline muman613

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There is no scriptural source for the concept 'no longer a Jew' according to the Torah both written and oral.

The concept of Karet is the closest thing to no longer being considered a Jew. It means 'cut off' as the Torah proscribes Karet for a variety of sins. But even Karet does not make a person 'not a Jew' but rather their connection to Hashem and his people have been severed. Those who are 'cut off' can still do Teshuva...




http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1340046/jewish/Can-Someone-Be-Cut-Off-From-G-d.htm

Question:

I’m wondering about the punishment called karet—spiritual excision from G‑d. If G‑d is everywhere, how can someone be completely cut off from Him? Can you repent after getting karet? Where can I learn more about this?

Answer:

A soul functions on several planes: one that is affected by karet, and another that is not. Rabbi Schneur Zalman of Liadi, author of Tanya, describes the makeup of the soul (and karet) in his work, Igeret HaTeshuvah, chapters 5 and 6. You can read his explanation in the original text here.

Rabbi Schneur Zalman draws on a biblical verse for an analogy for the soul: “Jacob is the portion of His inheritance” (Deuteronomy 32:9). The Hebrew word used here for “portion,” chevel, literally means “rope.” Our souls are like ropes made of 613 strands. As a rope connects the two objects at each end, the higher end of our souls are bound to G‑d and the lower end to our physical bodies, thus connecting them.

Each strand on the rope that is your soul corresponds to one of the 613 mitzvahs. When you fulfill that commandment, that aspect of your soul and its G‑dly connection are strengthened. When you transgress, that strand is severed. But you’re still connected to G‑d by 612 other strands, and when you repent of that sin, that particular thread is retied to form a new, stronger connection.

Have you ever taken a trip in a hot-air balloon? Imagine you’re high in the air in a basket kept peacefully afloat by an inflated balloon. Your balloon is fastened to your basket with 613 cords. Even if a cord comes undone, you’ve still got the other ropes holding things together while you repair the knot. But your calm coasting is rudely cut short by a chopper moving straight at your balloon. He misses the basket by an inch, and snaps every cord in one stroke. Your basket is cut off and hurtles towards the ground.

That’s karet. Certain transgressions cut not only one strand, but all 613 at once. The rope is severed; the soul is cut off from G‑d. The story should end there, because once that basket is detached from the balloon, there’s no recovery.

But here the metaphor breaks down. The basket and balloon can be permanently detached, because they’re two distinct objects connected by an external force, the ropes that bind them. When the ropes snap, nothing else holds the balloon and basket together. Souls, though, are not separate entities from G‑d; they are sparks of His own Being. G‑d and the soul are intrinsically one, with a unity deeper and more profound than actions can ever touch. Our innate bond with G‑d exists where the mitzvahs you do or don’t do don’t matter, so karet—the result of a sin—can’t affect it either.

That's why a person who incurs karet can still repent, even though his link to G‑d is broken. Because at a more intrinsic level, he still is connected. He’s always been connected.

When the Redemption arrives, our G‑dly connection will become apparent. We are promised that no Jew will be permanently estranged from G‑d. One way or another, we will all return, and the ropes will be retied.
You shall make yourself the Festival of Sukkoth for seven days, when you gather in [the produce] from your threshing floor and your vat.And you shall rejoice in your Festival-you, and your son, and your daughter, and your manservant, and your maidservant, and the Levite, and the stranger, and the orphan, and the widow, who are within your cities
Duet 16:13-14